China tells US Pacific Command chief military contact with Taiwan must stop

Originally posted by zcheng

If Taiwan was not part of China, why Dutch should get the approval from Ming emperor? Who needed Chinese emperors permission when Dutch occupied Indonesia? Remember how Britain got the control of Hong Kong, you think Qing emperors did not know Hong Kong was part of China?

Qing was considered invaders and conquered China. Zheng and many others wanted to repel Qing and revive a new Ming ( Han Regime).

There was ceremony for Japan surrender to US in Pacific Theatre. So was the ceremony of Japan surrender to China in China Theatre. KMT army was then the official government, and accepted the surrender on behalf of all Chinese.


No delegation from Mainland China or Taiwan attended the Conference. You think those attendees can dictate the destiny of both Mainland and Taiwan? Just your wishful thinking.

The Dutch didn't need Ming approval for settling on Taiwan. The Ming had no governmental institutions on the island and the number of Chinese (Han or otherwise) on Taiwan at the time was minimal. In the early 17th century, Taiwan clearly was outside Chinese administration, a fact that is recognized by nearly every serious historian of Chinese history.

It wasn't permission that was granted, more acquiescense. As I said, as Taiwan was not a part of China at the time, so the Ming voiced no objection to the Dutch setting up shop in Taiwan, as opposed to Penghu.

By the 1660s, the Qing had won. There were only a handful of desparate Ming holdouts. None of them can claim to hold Chinese sovereign authority. THat would be like a civil war in the United States, a small group take over Cuba and claim that they are taking Cuba on behalf of the United States even though they hold little of the actual territory that is the United States and have clearly lost the war. You position in this regard is simply untenable.

The KMT accepted the surrender in China, Taiwan and northern Viet Nam. Does that mean that northern Viet Nam is now in the Chinese sphere? The Soviets accepted surrenders in Manchuria and North Korea? Under your theory, it is time to hand Heilongjiang, Jilin, and Liaoning over to the Russians. Your argument shows little understanding of the post war process and the legal mechanisms required for the transfer of territory from one country to another.

The SF Peace Treaty doesn't deal with the fate of China, it deals with Taiwan. Taiwan was not a part of China, nor is it today. Even Mao Zedong in 1936 insisted that Taiwan is NOT within Chinese territory and its independence ought to be supported as they ought to support Korean independence from their Japanese masters.

All through the Japanese occupation, Chinese intellectuals DID NOT consider Taiwan to be a part of CHina. Today, Taiwanese people do not consider Taiwan to be a part of China. The only people today who insist on this is the ChiCom government and its brainwashed people.

Originally posted by ludahai
It wasn't permission that was granted, more acquiescense. As I said, as Taiwan was not a part of China at the time, so the Ming voiced no objection to the Dutch setting up shop in Taiwan, as opposed to Penghu.

By the 1660s, the Qing had won. There were only a handful of desparate Ming holdouts. None of them can claim to hold Chinese sovereign authority. THat would be like a civil war in the United States, a small group take over Cuba and claim that they are taking Cuba on behalf of the United States even though they hold little of the actual territory that is the United States and have clearly lost the war. You position in this regard is simply untenable.

The time Dutch occupied Taiwan, Ming Dynasty was not even strong enough to control mainland China, let along Taiwan. But the residents in Taiwan are mainly of Chinese origin.

You comparisom of Cuba was bad. You should use Hawaii. For example, if Hawaii is occupied by Japan and then defeated by US, would US reclaim back Hawaii? Cuba is a country by itself, as recognized by all nations around the world.

The KMT accepted the surrender in China, Taiwan and northern Viet Nam. Does that mean that northern Viet Nam is now in the Chinese sphere? The Soviets accepted surrenders in Manchuria and North Korea?

The SF Peace Treaty doesn't deal with the fate of China, it deals with Taiwan. Taiwan was not a part of China, nor is it today.

If following your argument, Mainland China was not belong to China, and should be dictated by Soviet and US? You are so ridiculous. North Vietnam does not belong to China, we do not want to claim that. We claim the land and sea that is rightfully Chinese.

The SF Peace Treaty do not even have delegation from either Mainland or Taiwan, and you expect the treaty will be accepted by Chinese? By the way what was the status of Taiwan, as you said it dealt with the fate of Taiwan. Was Taiwan part of Japan or US, or Soviet?

All through the Japanese occupation, Chinese intellectuals DID NOT consider Taiwan to be a part of CHina. Today, Taiwanese people do not consider Taiwan to be a part of China. The only people today who insist on this is the ChiCom government and its brainwashed people.

We know there were many traitors of China during Japan occupation. How do you interept that more than half of Taiwanese today consider themselves as Taiwanese and Chinese at the same time? Do not forget under the KMT, it was crime to sponsor Taiwan Independence.

When the time come to determine the fate of Taiwan, will be by all Chinese people in Mainland China and Taiwan. I believe we will see the day soon.

Originally posted by ludahai
All through the Japanese occupation, Chinese intellectuals DID NOT consider Taiwan to be a part of CHina. Today, Taiwanese people do not consider Taiwan to be a part of China. The only people today who insist on this is the ChiCom government and its brainwashed people.

Great Post. Alas as I concluded long ago you are wasting your time arguing with ZCHENG. He is held hostage to his own little reality that is goverened by the propaganda manual he quotes from. Your post is very revealing and it really strikes at the heart of his arguments about the ChiComs claim to the island. Talk about trying to live in the past. SHeesh

My grandfather's brother was a Guomindang General. He was froced to Taiwan by former Chinese central gov. But he always dreamed of uniting China with his believe.
As my consideration, Taiwan is a part of China. China dose not mean communism china. Though I hate communism,but i still think Taiwan is a province of China. I hope some day when china is back to democrat Chinese, then taiwan will come back.

Zcheng represent most young Chinese people's opinion. For him, I want to say, there is no truth in any country, if you do not trust US media, why do you trust Chinese communist media? Let's doubt anyone!!!!!!!!!
so there is no truth.

Taiwan, Taiwan, what a magic word.

Originally posted by zcheng
The time Dutch occupied Taiwan, Ming Dynasty was not even strong enough to control mainland China, let along Taiwan. But the residents in Taiwan are mainly of Chinese origin.

You comparisom of Cuba was bad. You should use Hawaii. For example, if Hawaii is occupied by Japan and then defeated by US, would US reclaim back Hawaii? Cuba is a country by itself, as recognized by all nations around the world.


If following your argument, Mainland China was not belong to China, and should be dictated by Soviet and US? You are so ridiculous. North Vietnam does not belong to China, we do not want to claim that. We claim the land and sea that is rightfully Chinese.

The SF Peace Treaty do not even have delegation from either Mainland or Taiwan, and you expect the treaty will be accepted by Chinese? By the way what was the status of Taiwan, as you said it dealt with the fate of Taiwan. Was Taiwan part of Japan or US, or Soviet?


We know there were many traitors of China during Japan occupation. How do you interept that more than half of Taiwanese today consider themselves as Taiwanese and Chinese at the same time? Do not forget under the KMT, it was crime to sponsor Taiwan Independence.

When the time come to determine the fate of Taiwan, will be by all Chinese people in Mainland China and Taiwan. I believe we will see the day soon.

In the 1620s, the Ming were still largely in control of CHina. However, even in the 1420s, when the position of the Ming was much stronger, they didn't claim Taiwan as Chinese. In fact, even at the dawn of the 17th century, the number of Chinese people in Taiwan was VERY small. During the early years of the Qing Dynasty, Taiwan was even DEPOPULATED of Chinese people. Immigration to Taiwan was specifically forbitten by imperial edict!

Why should I use HAwaii? Hawaii is clearly a part of the United States. Taiwan is NOT a part of China. When the KMT retreated to Taiwan, it was still technically under Japanese sovereignty pending the peace treaty. It was at that time under the belligerent occupation of the Allied powers.

Cuba was NOT a country back in the 1890s. If a remnant of U.S. losers (say in the U.S. Civil War - when Cuba was still a Spanish colony) set up shop in Cuba and claimed to be the legitimate government of the United States, and repressed the island, that would be a rediculous situation, about as rediculous as the situation regarding the KMT and Taiwan.

As for Mainland China, your argument doesn't hold. No one ever ceded control of Mainland China to anyone. Therefore, its status is secure. However, as Taiwan was under Japanese sovereignty from 1895 due to a treaty signed by the Qing Dynasty, its status was very much in doubt following World War II. As a result, while China's status didn't need to be addressed in the treaty (as it was never legally ceded to anyone and was never under Japanese sovereignty), as Taiwan WAS ceded and under Japaense soveriegnty for five decades, its status very much was a valid question for discussion and settlement at the peace talks.

As far as what Taiwan was a part of, it was a part of Japan, NOT China. THat is exactly why its disposition needed to be determined by the peace treaty.

So, Mao Zedong was a criminal and a traitor according to your reasoning! Mao advocated Taiwan's independence back in 1936. There was no reckoning in China prior to the start of WWII that Taiwan was a lost territory that needed to be recovered, NONE AT ALL!

It was a crime to advocate Taiwan's independence during the KMT days, that is true. However, the KMT regime was compeltely illegitimate. Its legitimacy ended the day the SF Peace Treaty took effect and Taiwan was not transferred to any Chinese entity. That is the day that Taiwanese people rightfully should have been able to determine their own destiny. However, the CHINESE KMT wouldn't allow that to happen, despite their own dubious legality!

Originally posted by ludahai

Originally posted by zcheng

If following your argument, Mainland China was not belong to China, and should be dictated by Soviet and US? You are so ridiculous. North Vietnam does not belong to China, we do not want to claim that. We claim the land and sea that is rightfully Chinese.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



What in the world are you talking about? China tried to invade Vietnam for over one thousand years but was unsuccessful. Chinese tried to wash away the Vietnamese culture by impsosing its own during occupation. You Chinese were defeated by the poeple of Vietnam before the French came in and colonized it.

Just last year,the Vietnamese government were forced to sign a secret deal in which Vietnam gave up a chunk of its land along the Chinese- Vietnamese border to China. And after that deal, the Vietnamese commie government gave up a bigger chuck of its sea territory near Hainan. None of these two stupid deals were not made publicly to the world.

More openly, there are thousands of Chinese troops disputing the border with Laos and Vietnam. You push forward and then pull back but not to the orignal border, but the "extended land" you have claimed.

Zcheng, you are just like any Chinese commie in China. You twist the truth for your own use. Shame on you. Present the darned fact like it is. You make me sick.

[edit on 17-8-2004 by jazzmaster]

The best way to end china is thru the People show the people a better life and you will see china`s leaders hanging on a meat hook like Mussolini Support the Uprising of the the People of China Money Arms Tech.......Bye Bye Dictatorship

Originally posted by Truth_Hunter_1976
The best way to end china is thru the People show the people a better life and you will see china`s leaders hanging on a meat hook like Mussolini Support the Uprising of the the People of China Money Arms Tech.......Bye Bye Dictatorship

The only problem is that the Chinese government controls everything the people watch or read. Anyone or anything that has something to critize the government is ether jailed or blocked. Take the SARS case for example, the doctor that wanted his government to be more open SARS was jailed and put to "re-education camp" and was threatened not to oppose the government from now on.

The only thing Chinese govt cannot control is the radio. If only there were more Chinese stations that are libreral. BBC is not doing enough to tell the people of Chinese about the outside world. I'm not sure VOA can be picked up over there.

Originally posted by ludahai
In the 1620s, the Ming were still largely in control of CHina. However, even in the 1420s, when the position of the Ming was much stronger, they didn't claim Taiwan as Chinese. In fact, even at the dawn of the 17th century, the number of Chinese people in Taiwan was VERY small. During the early years of the Qing Dynasty, Taiwan was even DEPOPULATED of Chinese people. Immigration to Taiwan was specifically forbitten by imperial edict!

Why should I use HAwaii? Hawaii is clearly a part of the United States. Taiwan is NOT a part of China. When the KMT retreated to Taiwan, it was still technically under Japanese sovereignty pending the peace treaty. It was at that time under the belligerent occupation of the Allied powers.

Cuba was NOT a country back in the 1890s. If a remnant of U.S. losers (say in the U.S. Civil War - when Cuba was still a Spanish colony) set up shop in Cuba and claimed to be the legitimate government of the United States, and repressed the island, that would be a rediculous situation, about as rediculous as the situation regarding the KMT and Taiwan.

As for Mainland China, your argument doesn't hold. No one ever ceded control of Mainland China to anyone. Therefore, its status is secure. However, as Taiwan was under Japanese sovereignty from 1895 due to a treaty signed by the Qing Dynasty, its status was very much in doubt following World War II. As a result, while China's status didn't need to be addressed in the treaty (as it was never legally ceded to anyone and was never under Japanese sovereignty), as Taiwan WAS ceded and under Japaense soveriegnty for five decades, its status very much was a valid question for discussion and settlement at the peace talks.

As far as what Taiwan was a part of, it was a part of Japan, NOT China. THat is exactly why its disposition needed to be determined by the peace treaty.

So, Mao Zedong was a criminal and a traitor according to your reasoning! Mao advocated Taiwan's independence back in 1936. There was no reckoning in China prior to the start of WWII that Taiwan was a lost territory that needed to be recovered, NONE AT ALL!

It was a crime to advocate Taiwan's independence during the KMT days, that is true. However, the KMT regime was compeltely illegitimate. Its legitimacy ended the day the SF Peace Treaty took effect and Taiwan was not transferred to any Chinese entity. That is the day that Taiwanese people rightfully should have been able to determine their own destiny. However, the CHINESE KMT wouldn't allow that to happen, despite their own dubious legality!

As you admitted that Koxinga (Zheng Cheng-kung ) defeated Dutch colonialists and governed Taiwan In 1662. He was from China and Han national. With Mainland China falling to Qing Dynasty, he even dreamed to repel the invaders from the North. It is clear that he identitied himself as a member of Chinese.

Later in 1683, this last remnant of the Ming Dynasty was defeated by the Qing troops, and Qing assumed the sovereignty of Taiwan for the following 200 hundred years. Later Qing was defeated by Japan and ceded to Japan.

From above we can see clearly that Chinese government had governed Taiwan for more than 200 hundred years at least to 1895. No consider the fact that the concept of nation born from the West just about 200 years. We can clearly see that Taiwan was part of China.

Qing was very weak near the end of 19 century. The West committed heinous crimes in China which no country is yet repented. When Japan was defeated in 1945, the Chinese government KMT rightfully reclaim the sovereignty of Taiwan.

This is concise history of Taiwan in the past 400 years.

If you want to revert the history for hundreds of years, even thousands, we all know that Indian could claim North and South America.

Mao Zedong even sponsored that all province in China should be independent to protest against then corrupt government. It was his strategy at that specific time.

As I said time and again, the fate of Taiwan will be determined by all Chinese and people in Taiwan. The protocol of Quebec independence movement is more reasonable, and acceptable to Chinese people, if they do prefer Independence.

Outsiders like you can whine, but will not change a thing in Taiwan. Taiwan is part of China, as US government recognizes.

Originally posted by jazzmaster
The only thing Chinese govt cannot control is the radio. If only there were more Chinese stations that are libreral. BBC is not doing enough to tell the people of Chinese about the outside world. I'm not sure VOA can be picked up over there.

There were huge number of Chinese people listened to the VOA program, especially in years following 1989.

It has a slow speaking English program, very popular among Chinese people want to improve listening skills. I also listened to it for quite a long time.

Unfortunately in the past years, VOA lost most of its audience, since it always broadcast false US propaganda against Chinese government. VOA lost its credit long time back.

With the advent of more TV, magzines and especially the coming of Internet, VOA now only has minimal audience in China today.

BBC Radio is well received even today in China. Even today, I like the news from BBC, even though I know it is part of the West propaganda machine.

VOA is dead in China.

Originally posted by zcheng

As you admitted that Koxinga (Zheng Cheng-kung ) defeated Dutch colonialists and governed Taiwan In 1662. He was from China and Han national. With Mainland China falling to Qing Dynasty, he even dreamed to repel the invaders from the North. It is clear that he identitied himself as a member of Chinese.

However, he did not represent any Chinese government, nor did he accept the authority of one. Don't forget that he wasn't full Han, he was half-Japanese. He also dreamed of taking the Philippines. Had he done that, would the Philippines now be Chinese territory as well?

Later in 1683, this last remnant of the Ming Dynasty was defeated by the Qing troops, and Qing assumed the sovereignty of Taiwan for the following 200 hundred years. Later Qing was defeated by Japan and ceded to Japan.

The Qing had sovereignty over a PART of Taiwan for most of that 200 years. There were large parts of Taiwan, even as late as the 1870s, where the Qing had never been or had control of, a fact observed by the Japanese.

From above we can see clearly that Chinese government had governed Taiwan for more than 200 hundred years at least to 1895. No consider the fact that the concept of nation born from the West just about 200 years. We can clearly see that Taiwan was part of China.

No one is denying the fact that the Qing Dynasty governed a part of Taiwan from 1683-1895. However, was it a Chinese government? Even the intellectuals of the 1890s who opposed the Qing referred to them as foreigners. The fact is that the only time that Taiwan was under a Chinese government was when that Chinese government was run by foreigners because China had been conquered by them. According to your logic, Mongolia should also be a part of China because it was also ruled by the Manchu Qing Dynasty. How about all of the other lands in the past that were ruled by previous Chinese dynasties (i.e. Viet Nam, and Korea)? Are you going to claim them as well?

Qing was very weak near the end of 19 century. The West committed heinous crimes in China which no country is yet repented. When Japan was defeated in 1945, the Chinese government KMT rightfully reclaim the sovereignty of Taiwan.

The KMT did not reclaim sovereignty over Taiwan. Taiwan was surrendered to the KMT ON BEHALF of the Allies pending the final peace treaty. That is a fact that you continually ignore and refuse to acknowledge, but it is a fact. The peace treaty that technically ended the war wasn't signed until 1951!

This is concise history of Taiwan in the past 400 years.

From the ChiCom point of view. The Taiwanese people have a different perspective on things.

If you want to revert the history for hundreds of years, even thousands, we all know that Indian could claim North and South America.

I am not talking about reverting to history of hundreds of years, YOU ARE. You are making Taiwan to be a part of China! That is a reversion of history! Taiwan today is not a part of China. Your argument that it IS a part of CHina is due to previous administration of the island. YOU, not I, are the one trying to revert history.

Mao Zedong even sponsored that all province in China should be independent to protest against then corrupt government. It was his strategy at that specific time.

However, Taiwan was not a province of CHina at the time under the rule of the corrupt KMT government. Mao specifically said that he supported Taiwan and Korea's independence. Your (and the CHiCOm) re-interpretation of those words is a sad attempt to change what he actually said!

As I said time and again, the fate of Taiwan will be determined by all Chinese and people in Taiwan. The protocol of Quebec independence movement is more reasonable, and acceptable to Chinese people, if they do prefer Independence.

You don't know what you are talking about. Quebec is undoubtedly a part of Canada. However, the people of Quebec, AND ONLY THE PEOPLE OF QUEBEC, voted in TWO referenda on independence. People in the rest of Canada DIDN"T vote on either referenda. Taiwan most certainly is NOT a part of China. The Taiwanese people have the right under the principle of self-determination enshrined in the UN charter to have a plebiscite on independnce without coercion from the ChiComs or anyone else.

Outsiders like you can whine, but will not change a thing in Taiwan. Taiwan is part of China, as US government recognizes.

Taiwan is NOT a part of China. THis is a fact that most Taiwanese today recognize. If the US considers Taiwan a part of China, why does it sell Taiwan defensive weapons and support Taiwan's increased involvement in international organizations like the WTO and the OAS?

[edit on 2004/8/18 by ludahai]

Originally posted by ludahai
No one is denying the fact that the Qing Dynasty governed a part of Taiwan from 1683-1895. However, was it a Chinese government? Even the intellectuals of the 1890s who opposed the Qing referred to them as foreigners. The fact is that the only time that Taiwan was under a Chinese government was when that Chinese government was run by foreigners because China had been conquered by them. According to your logic, Mongolia should also be a part of China because it was also ruled by the Manchu Qing Dynasty. How about all of the other lands in the past that were ruled by previous Chinese dynasties (i.e. Viet Nam, and Korea)? Are you going to claim them as well?

Great that you did not deny the fact that Qing Dynasty ruled Taiwan from 1683-1895. Considering the fact that nation concept took form in no more than 300 hundred years, you can not deny that Taiwan was part of China.

Qing Dynasty was considered invaders, during the hundreds of years, they have integrated to the Chinese culture and became the integral part of Chinese. Mongolia was part of China, it gained independenc when China was weak and supported by Soviet Union in the first decades of 20 century. Do you know there is a inner mongolia?

Nations like Mongolia, Vietnam, Koreas are recognized by the Chinese people and Chinese government. If Taiwan can receive the approval of Chinese people and Chinese government, Taiwan can gain Independence.

Originally posted by zcheng


Great that you did not deny the fact that Qing Dynasty ruled Taiwan from 1683-1895. Considering the fact that nation concept took form in no more than 300 hundred years, you can not deny that Taiwan was part of China.

I said that they ruled PARTS of Taiwan, not all of it. The concept of the nation-state in the West dates back to 1648, but the concept is much newer in Asia. Taiwan's incorporation into the Qing Empire more follows the Empire paradigm, NOT the nation paradigm. China is still living under a paradigm that most of the rest of the world has already abandoned.

Qing Dynasty was considered invaders, during the hundreds of years, they have integrated to the Chinese culture and became the integral part of Chinese. Mongolia was part of China, it gained independenc when China was weak and supported by Soviet Union in the first decades of 20 century. Do you know there is a inner mongolia?

Then why did Chinese intellectuals refer to the Qing as foreigners even in the final days of the Qing Empire? Mongolia CONQUERED China to create the Yuan Dynasty. THen, during the Ming dynasty, it was outside Chinese control. Only with another foreign people, the Manchus, conquered China did Mongolia once again fall under the Chinese orbit. Of course I know that there is an "Inner Mongolia", though the Chinese campaign of "ethnic redistribution" has taken away the Mongolian character from much of the territory.

Nations like Mongolia, Vietnam, Koreas are recognized by the Chinese people and Chinese government. If Taiwan can receive the approval of Chinese people and Chinese government, Taiwan can gain Independence.

The Chinese government does not represent the will of the Chinese people. Mongolia, Viet Nam, and the Koreas are independence because international law recognizes them as such, NOT the CHinese people. Are you saying that if the Chinese government says that those areas are a part of China, that they then become a part of China. This is, of course, absurd. However, this is exactly what you are saying. China's legal claim to Taiwan is based on little more than smoke and mirrors. However, despite that, you are willing to accept the claims of a totalitarian dictatorship (which legally are absurd) over the claims of a democracy (whose claims in this case are in accordance with international law.) No wonder why the CHiCom government is afraid to let this be heard by an international court. THey know that they would LOSE!

Originally posted by ludahai
I said that they ruled PARTS of Taiwan, not all of it. The concept of the nation-state in the West dates back to 1648, but the concept is much newer in Asia. Taiwan's incorporation into the Qing Empire more follows the Empire paradigm, NOT the nation paradigm.

Tell me who ruled the rest PART of Taiwan? When Hawaii was incorporated into US, do not tell me that they voluntarily joined? I guess US will return New Mexico, Texas, California to Mexico. Considering the fact that US TODAY still trying to colonize Iraq and build the EMPIRE, US lost all its credibility to the world.

Then why did Chinese intellectuals refer to the Qing as foreigners even in the final days of the Qing Empire?

There were many that considered Manchus invaders, but the over the hundreds of years, the Manchus have integrated and became an integral part of Chinese people. China today has 56 nationalities.

The Chinese government does not represent the will of the Chinese people. Mongolia, Viet Nam, and the Koreas are independence because international law recognizes them as such, NOT the CHinese people.

I guess you represent the Chinese people.

Mongolia, Vietnam, and Koreas are nations recognized by the all other nations. Mongolia became independent with the help of Soviet Union when China was so weak and faced aggression from Japan. Then government KMT and later CCP recognized the independence state of Mongolia. Without receiving the approval of Chinese government and people, Mongolia would face possible wars. It is the same reason why East Timor has to get approval from Indonesia to become Independent. Taiwan is facing the same situation. Taiwan can follow the way of Mongolia or East Timor, when China is so weak or Taiwan get approval from China.

Are you saying that if the Chinese government says that those areas are a part of China, that they then become a part of China. This is, of course, absurd. However, this is exactly what you are saying.

Dumbest ever comment.

We need to get serious about defending Taiwan or stay out it. The weather vane mentality is only making war more likely. Much of what is being purposed for sale won't com online untell the end of the decade or the first part of the next. By that time the chinese will nearly double their sub fleet and replace all their obsolete fighter, and begin flight testing on a fifth generation fighter. We need to institute some kind of lend lease program like we did with Russians during the WWII, and permantly station an CBG near the Taiwanese coast. Take a side Mr. President or stay out of Chinese affairs!!!

Originally posted by zcheng

Originally posted by ludahai
No one is denying the fact that the Qing Dynasty governed a part of Taiwan from 1683-1895. However, was it a Chinese government? Even the intellectuals of the 1890s who opposed the Qing referred to them as foreigners. The fact is that the only time that Taiwan was under a Chinese government was when that Chinese government was run by foreigners because China had been conquered by them. According to your logic, Mongolia should also be a part of China because it was also ruled by the Manchu Qing Dynasty. How about all of the other lands in the past that were ruled by previous Chinese dynasties (i.e. Viet Nam, and Korea)? Are you going to claim them as well?

Great that you did not deny the fact that Qing Dynasty ruled Taiwan from 1683-1895. Considering the fact that nation concept took form in no more than 300 hundred years, you can not deny that Taiwan was part of China.

Qing Dynasty was considered invaders, during the hundreds of years, they have integrated to the Chinese culture and became the integral part of Chinese. Mongolia was part of China, it gained independenc when China was weak and supported by Soviet Union in the first decades of 20 century. Do you know there is a inner mongolia?

Nations like Mongolia, Vietnam, Koreas are recognized by the Chinese people and Chinese government. If Taiwan can receive the approval of Chinese people and Chinese government, Taiwan can gain Independence.

Taiwan is finally declaring independence from the Commies, the Indians did the same thing when they forced the British out under the leadership of Ghandhi. The Chinese governement is very powerful, and does limit children to one per couple, which may not be such a bad idea, but for those who might want more, they go to Taiwan.

Originally posted by TACHYON
Taiwan is finally declaring independence from the Commies, the Indians did the same thing when they forced the British out under the leadership of Ghandhi.

I am waiting for the day for Taiwan to declare Independece, because it will be the day Taiwan will not be renegade provice of China anymore. China will be finally united and ONE.

Indians defeated British invaders to gain liberation and independence.
Iraqi people is doing the same thing now to defeat US invaders. I am also anticipating the Joy of Iraqi Independence.

If Taiwan people consider themselve as Taiwanese, not Chinese, they will have to defeat PLA not once, but all the time in the future.

Originally posted by Harry12
We need to get serious about defending Taiwan or stay out it. The weather vane mentality is only making war more likely. Much of what is being purposed for sale won't com online untell the end of the decade or the first part of the next. By that time the chinese will nearly double their sub fleet and replace all their obsolete fighter, and begin flight testing on a fifth generation fighter. We need to institute some kind of lend lease program like we did with Russians during the WWII, and permantly station an CBG near the Taiwanese coast. Take a side Mr. President or stay out of Chinese affairs!!!

Right on the POINT, it is the decision not only for US President, but also US people as a whole. The treasury and blood to spill and waste in US intervention in Taiwan strait will be enormous as China and Chinese people are determined to defend the integrity of China at any cost!

Originally posted by zcheng

Originally posted by TACHYON
Taiwan is finally declaring independence from the Commies, the Indians did the same thing when they forced the British out under the leadership of Ghandhi.

I am waiting for the day for Taiwan to declare Independece, because it will be the day Taiwan will not be renegade provice of China anymore. China will be finally united and ONE.

Indians defeated British invaders to gain liberation and independence.
Iraqi people is doing the same thing now to defeat US invaders. I am also anticipating the Joy of Iraqi Independence.

If Taiwan people consider themselve as Taiwanese, not Chinese, they will have to defeat PLA not once, but all the time in the future.

The US presence is necessary in Iraq, it does not have a stable governmetn system yet, and could fall to rebel leaders and could turn into Saddam II's empire if it was not for the US Security forces.

Originally posted by TACHYON
The US presence is necessary in Iraq, it does not have a stable governmetn system yet, and could fall to rebel leaders and could turn into Saddam II's empire if it was not for the US Security forces.

It is just a myth manufactured for US to justify occupying Iraq. Just conduct a fair poll in Iraq to see how many Iraqi people want US troops there.

Sunni and Shia are now united to drive US out of Iraq and liberate Iraq from Occupation. With the conflict in Najaf, the Southern Iraq is now galvanized and ready to fight for their liberation. Just wait for sometime, we will see the ignominious withdraw from Iraq, much worse than Vietnam.

Do not just the mass propaganda machine. At least read news from different sources, not just different outlets of the same source like CNN, Fox, MSNBC, BBC, etc. You have to read and think to get the truth behind propaganda.