China tells US Pacific Command chief military contact with Taiwan must stop

Originally posted by zcheng

Do you know who controlled Taiwan before Qing Dynasty united it again?
Was he a Japanese, or American?

I think I probably know Taiwanese history better than you do. It was Koxinga, but he claimed to represent a dynasty that no longer existed. Furthermore, he was half-Japanese, and only had effective control over a small fraction of Taiwan!

Originally posted by zcheng

If Taiwan is a independent nation now. I would like to know when it gained Independence, and where was its capital at that time.

WHen did Taiwan become a part of China and what is the legal mechanism for that transfer of sovereignty to China?

ludahai, could you provide some insight into the feelings of the people of Taiwan with regards to independence?

I posted a thread here: Only 40% of Taiwanese want independence, which showed the results of a recent poll.

I'm hoping you can comment on that poll and let me know how that compares to the views of persons you know in Taiwan.

Originally posted by AceOfBase
ludahai, could you provide some insight into the feelings of the people of Taiwan with regards to independence?

I posted a thread here: Only 40% of Taiwanese want independence, which showed the results of a recent poll.

I'm hoping you can comment on that poll and let me know how that compares to the views of persons you know in Taiwan.

I would be very careful about some polls in Taiwan. Polls done by UDN (The United Daily News) are notoriously unreliable as it is a noted Pro-Blue/KMT paper in Taiwan.

As for the people I know in Taichung, the overwhelming majority feel that Taiwan is an independent country already and regard Taiwan as such. The only thing that gives them reservations about an open declaration of independence is the threat that China poses. They want Taiwanese independence, and regard Taiwan as independent already, but they also want peace.

Originally posted by ludahai

I would be very careful about some polls in Taiwan. Polls done by UDN (The United Daily News) are notoriously unreliable as it is a noted Pro-Blue/KMT paper in Taiwan.

As for the people I know in Taichung, the overwhelming majority feel that Taiwan is an independent country already and regard Taiwan as such. The only thing that gives them reservations about an open declaration of independence is the threat that China poses. They want Taiwanese independence, and regard Taiwan as independent already, but they also want peace.

OK, so it shouldn't be viewed as how many want independence.
Thanks for the input.

BTW, it was conducted by TVBS.
Are they more reliable than UDN or are they a part of UDN?

[edit on 15-8-2004 by AceOfBase]

The people there I�m sure want independence but the reason that only 40% want it is because they want independence but they are afraid of the war that might happen. This causes them to vote against it cuz they are afraid of the consequences, but as a feeling they overwhelmingly want independence IMO.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
The people there I�m sure want independence but the reason that only 40% want it is because they want independence but they are afraid of the war that might happen. This causes them to vote against it cuz they are afraid of the consequences, but as a feeling they overwhelmingly want independence IMO.

There has never been a vote. China opposes it. Any talk of a referendum on Taiwan's future (something which the Taiwanese are entitled to under international law) is met with military threats from Beijing. They always talk of "liberating" Taiwan. WHAT A JOKE!

I once met a Taiwanese and she(around age 40)told that mostly elder people wants to stay with China and younger people wants to have Taiwan independent. Is this still the case?

Originally posted by jazzmaster
China not only will go against Taiwan alone, but they will face international forces in that course.

Many business are already preparing for the possibility of war, like selling their interest there, or shifting their business to other parts of the world, like mainland China. More and more Taiwanese business are moving to mainland China.

China in fact will not destroy those high-tech zones, but rather they will attack garbage targets at the coast of Taiwan because that is as far as their ground troops will go before they are scattered around by artileries. I believe Taiwan has some sort of missile defense against China, the Patriots perhaps?

You are kidding me? Do you know what is the success rate of US interception test? Those tests are have known trajectory already, have longer time like 20 minutes to interception.

In case of missile attack for Taiwan, it will be only be about 3 miniutes, with time and trajectory unknown. I think if those Patriots can intercept one out of ten will be great already. Those PACs are only used for them to feel like they are protected, and feel better.

Remember the outage of power in a Typhoon, just because one power poll was down? Taiwan power infrastructure is very fragile.

In terms of Taiwan troops, I do not know how many will have the gut to face PLA. Many do not want to die for Taiwan Independence.

Originally posted by ludahai

Originally posted by zcheng

Do you know who controlled Taiwan before Qing Dynasty united it again?
Was he a Japanese, or American?

I think I probably know Taiwanese history better than you do. It was Koxinga, but he claimed to represent a dynasty that no longer existed.

I hope you did. Now do you know where was Koxinga from and what Dynasty he represented? Was he from Japan or born in Taiwan? Why he sticked to the gone Dynasty, and not willing to surrender to Qing Dynasty?




[edit on 15-8-2004 by zcheng]

Originally posted by ludahai

Originally posted by zcheng

If Taiwan is a independent nation now. I would like to know when it gained Independence, and where was its capital at that time.

WHen did Taiwan become a part of China and what is the legal mechanism for that transfer of sovereignty to China?

Answer my questions first, and I will answer yours. By the way, what is official nation of Taiwan today? Do you ever read its Constitution?

Originally posted by zcheng

Originally posted by jazzmaster
China not only will go against Taiwan alone, but they will face international forces in that course.

Many business are already preparing for the possibility of war, like selling their interest there, or shifting their business to other parts of the world, like mainland China. More and more Taiwanese business are moving to mainland China.

China in fact will not destroy those high-tech zones, but rather they will attack garbage targets at the coast of Taiwan because that is as far as their ground troops will go before they are scattered around by artileries. I believe Taiwan has some sort of missile defense against China, the Patriots perhaps?

You are kidding me? Do you know what is the success rate of US interception test? Those tests are have known trajectory already, have longer time like 20 minutes to interception.

In case of missile attack for Taiwan, it will be only be about 3 miniutes, with time and trajectory unknown. I think if those Patriots can intercept one out of ten will be great already. Those PACs are only used for them to feel like they are protected, and feel better.

Remember the outage of power in a Typhoon, just because one power poll was down? Taiwan power infrastructure is very fragile.

In terms of Taiwan troops, I do not know how many will have the gut to face PLA. Many do not want to die for Taiwan Independence.

No my friend, you are quite on the wrong course here.

First, the rate of investment from international is ever growing at at fast pace of 6% a year. For this year, the rate of foreign investments is up to 9.3%. I don't know where you got the the information you did but it is obviously opposite of what i have here. Here are the links:
econ.la.psu.edu...
www.tdctrade.com...
The reason some Taiwanese businesses are BRANCHING (not moving) in China is because of cheap labor there.
Like back in 1979 or around that year when China started to absorb the capitalism concept from the West, they started to zone industrial and commerical zones in Shenzhen and the areas around Hong Khong to attract Hong Kong businesses to the area.
China is ever so famous for its cheap labor and that is why the zones grew.
But the fact is that only labors moved to China, the brains and the leaders stayed back in Hong Kong.
Today, Hong Kong is now the world's best city, famous for its economy and its number of educated, smart business people.

And again, Zcheng, you are wrong again. The Patriot missiles are designed to track the missiles and able to change its course. The maximum flight time for the Patriot missiles is a little over 3 1/2 minutes, just enough to shoot down China missiles. To arm the missiles, it takes less than 9 seconds. The Pac-2, and 3 are basically the upgraded version of the first ones.
One more thing, China does not have any type of non-ballistic missiles that are able to reach Taiwan if ever launched from China!! If somehow they were able to launch one, by the time it gets close Taiwan, its trajectory has already been established those Patriot missiles can shoot it down. I'm not sure about this but the rate of success back then was 80%? If it's true then the rate of success must have been improved by now. But then again, China does not have non-ballistic missiles that can reach Taiwan if ever launched from the ground in China. Those on jet fighters, submarines, and ships are more vunerable to our fires.
Oh by the way, the F-22s are being deployed next year to the Army and so that puts Chinese missile-delivering vehicles even at greater risks.

In case of the launch of ballistic missiles, we can only pray that they hit non-civiillan targets and wait our turn to shoot more missiles back at China because China does not have a single missile defense system. Yes, Chinese war planners are well aware of this fact and that is why that are not doing anything right now. If they launched them to start the war, international will come in and help. If they launched them during the war, more loss for them because it is too late, casualties from crossing the water, planes shot down if ever launched, ships torpedoed or hit by missiles, submarines blown up by Tainwan's own fleet. Either way i look at it, Taiwan and the US have less to lose than China. Chinese war planers are well aware of this fact and they are hoping for a better way to solve this conflict.

Originally posted by jazzmaster
And again, Zcheng, you are wrong again.

Do not be so confident. I think we all can live long enough to see the effectiveness of the PACs. Just lets wait and see, maybe in a few months or a few years.

Just mark my judgement that Taiwan Patriot system will be of minimal success against Chinese missile attacks.

It is because PLA consider the majority of people in Taiwan are Chinese as well, PLA is trying everything to avoid direct attack. It is a pity that those seeking Taiwan Independence think that PLA is too weak to attack. When the time comes, the world will know the power of PLA. Just be patient.

Originally posted by zcheng

Originally posted by jazzmaster
And again, Zcheng, you are wrong again.

Do not be so confident. I think we all can live long enough to see the effectiveness of the PACs. Just lets wait and see, maybe in a few months or a few years.

Just mark my judgement that Taiwan Patriot system will be of minimal success against Chinese missile attacks.

It is because PLA consider the majority of people in Taiwan are Chinese as well, PLA is trying everything to avoid direct attack. It is a pity that those seeking Taiwan Independence think that PLA is too weak to attack. When the time comes, the world will know the power of PLA. Just be patient.

This time you are right, we can only wait and see. Everything posted here is only a matter of our own opinions.

Originally posted by Samiralfey
I once met a Taiwanese and she(around age 40)told that mostly elder people wants to stay with China and younger people wants to have Taiwan independent. Is this still the case?

Older people in the north (who are often from China in the first place) want to unite with China. They were the unwelcome invaders who took Taiwan from the Taiwanese people. Older people in the South tend to be the most strident in support of independence. Younger people (both from Taiwan as well as those whose parents came from China) more tend to alread recognize Taiwan as an independent entity.

Originally posted by zcheng
[
I hope you did. Now do you know where was Koxinga from and what Dynasty he represented? Was he from Japan or born in Taiwan? Why he sticked to the gone Dynasty, and not willing to surrender to Qing Dynasty?

[edit on 15-8-2004 by zcheng]

He was actually born in Japan. He claimed initially to be a Ming loyalist because the Qing were foreign invaders. However, don't forget that Taiwan had never been under the administrative control of China before the 17th century, and Koxinga can't really claim to represent China either as his dynasty had fallen. Furthermore, once he took Taiwan (and made plans to take the Philippines), he didn't recognize anyone within the Ming Dynasty from whom to take orders from. He was on his own!

When the Qing took Taiwan, they only meant to use it as a defense post and depopulated the island of Chinese. Migration from China to Taiwan was officially illegal during the first hundred years of Manchu Qing rule.

One more thing. None of this is even relevant to Taiwan today as the Qing surrendered it in 1895 and there is NO TREATY that gives Taiwan "back" to China at any subsequent period!

Originally posted by ludahai
He was on his own!

It seems that he repelled Netherland pirates on his own. Where were his soldiers from, and what his interest represented?

One more thing. None of this is even relevant to Taiwan today as the Qing surrendered it in 1895 and there is NO TREATY that gives Taiwan "back" to China at any subsequent period!

After Japan surrendered, Taiwan was rightfully returned back to China. I do not see Japan or US have any claim to Taiwan. What is current official nation of Taiwan? You seems blind even though with two eyes.

Originally posted by zcheng
It seems that he repelled Netherland pirates on his own. Where were his soldiers from, and what his interest represented?

After Japan surrendered, Taiwan was rightfully returned back to China. I do not see Japan or US have any claim to Taiwan. What is current official nation of Taiwan? You seems blind even though with two eyes.

Actually, the Dutch weren't pirates. They established themselves on Taiwan with the official sanction of the Ming court after the Ming drove them from Penghu (the Pescadores - the small island chain between Taiwan and China) in the 1620s. The Ming didn't want them in Penghu as they considered those islands to be an integral part of China. However, no objection was raised to the Dutch presence (in fact, the Ming emperor specifically approved of it) precisely because the Ming didn't consider Taiwan as a part of its territory.

Zheng did it with mostly Ming loyalists, but the Ming were already a fallen dynasty. They had a few remnants left in Yunnan, but Koxinga didn't have any contact with them. In fact, when he established himself on Taiwan, he didn't use the Ming reign names or even their dating system. He started his own.

Japan DID NOT return Taiwan to China. The KMT accepted the surrender of the Japanese ON BEHALF OF THE ALLIES in 1945. The KMT even needed a ride from the US Navy to accept the surrender. However, that administration was pending the final peace treaty. When that final peace treaty was signed in 1951 (taking effect in 1952), not only was Taiwan NOT assigned to China, but China (neither the ROC nor the PRC) were even signatories to that treaty. Please explain to me how exactly China can claim benefit from this treaty?

I think the interesting part in the case of war between China and Taiwan would be that Taiwan would use the Lafayette frigates. they buyed them from France which caused this big scandal...

I found this website to whom it may interest:
www.andrew-wang.com

Originally posted by ludahai
Actually, the Dutch weren't pirates. ....... The Ming didn't want them in Penghu as they considered those islands to be an integral part of China. However, no objection was raised to the Dutch presence (in fact, the Ming emperor specifically approved of it) precisely because the Ming didn't consider Taiwan as a part of its territory.

If Taiwan was not part of China, why Dutch should get the approval from Ming emperor? Who needed Chinese emperors permission when Dutch occupied Indonesia? Remember how Britain got the control of Hong Kong, you think Qing emperors did not know Hong Kong was part of China?

Zheng did it with mostly Ming loyalists, but the Ming were already a fallen dynasty. They had a few remnants left in Yunnan, but Koxinga didn't have any contact with them. In fact, when he established himself on Taiwan, he didn't use the Ming reign names or even their dating system. He started his own.

Qing was considered invaders and conquered China. Zheng and many others wanted to repel Qing and revive a new Ming ( Han Regime).

Japan DID NOT return Taiwan to China. The KMT accepted the surrender of the Japanese ON BEHALF OF THE ALLIES in 1945. The KMT even needed a ride from the US Navy to accept the surrender.

There was ceremony for Japan surrender to US in Pacific Theatre. So was the ceremony of Japan surrender to China in China Theatre. KMT army was then the official government, and accepted the surrender on behalf of all Chinese.

However, that administration was pending the final peace treaty. When that final peace treaty was signed in 1951 (taking effect in 1952), not only was Taiwan NOT assigned to China, but China (neither the ROC nor the PRC) were even signatories to that treaty. Please explain to me how exactly China can claim benefit from this treaty?

Please read:
www.taiwandocuments.org...
Note: Neither the Republic of China nor the People's Republic of China were invited to the San Francisco Peace Conference, and neither were parties to the San Francisco Treaty. The Republic of China concluded a separate Treaty of Peace with Japan in 1952

No delegation from Mainland China or Taiwan attended the Conference. You think those attendees can dictate the destiny of both Mainland and Taiwan? Just your wishful thinking.