China tells US Pacific Command chief military contact with Taiwan must stop

How about me and zcheng go head to head in the debate forum on the topic Should Taiwan be independent?, what do you guys think is it a good way to end this argument?

Originally posted by WestPoint23
How about me and zcheng go head to head in the debate forum on the topic Should Taiwan be independent?, what do you guys think is it a good way to end this argument?

Westpoint, I U2U him at least 4 separate occasions on this very topic. He simply ignored the requests and contiued to try to debate me via u2u. I doubt that he wants to be challanged because he is afraid that he cannot contiue to use his canned propaganda manual answers to the questions.

If you can get him TAKE HIM OUT!

FredT I have sent him an invitation to go up against me in the Debate forum I am waiting for his reply. Hopefully zcheng is not all talk and no action.


[edit on 1-8-2004 by WestPoint23]

I don't know guys, Zcheng hasn't been active lately. Don't know why. Must be the connection over there or this site is blocked. China just blocked like 700 porn sites recently, it doesn't surprise me if they blocked this one too. China govt never give the right number, either too small or too large.

I would love to be involved in this debate, very controversial and yet not complicated at all. We all know who the bad guy is. Hey zcheng, take me on.

Originally posted by jazzmaster
I don't know guys, Zcheng hasn't been active lately. Don't know why. Must be the connection over there or this site is blocked. China just blocked like 700 porn sites recently, it doesn't surprise me if they blocked this one too. China govt never give the right number, either too small or too large.

I do not have much time lately. But I do read the posts. I support the Chinese government to bann or filter out those porn sites.

Westpoint23 is in my ignore list. I see no point in debating him. I debate with that can have a reasonable argument.

I would love to debate you on the politics of China and Taiwan.

Your current arguments have been repeatedly given over and over in your posts which seem to keep saying the same thing: China can't stand for an independent Taiwan for the simple reason of territorial sovereignty.

My point I will argue is this: Taiwan has been out of Chinese control for 50+ years. In that span, it has become an economic powerhouse and a breeding ground for new democratic ideas that have embarassed China's communist government that is still trying to cover up any leaks that were so evident in the Tianamen square massacre. If you think China only wants Taiwan because it "owns" it, you are seriously confused. China is afraid that having a US supported democracy in the pacific so close to China will undermine its weak government. The Chinese people will eventually rebel from the propoganda that the COmmunist goverment keeps implementing. ANd the following use of military might to squash the rebellion will ensue.

The disagreement is more about political and economical power than anything. No country wants to be taken over by force, at least not while the country is successful economically. If Taiwan was in shambles like Afghanistan was, then CHina wouldn't even want Taiwan back.

I don't want to take any stands here, since I think the issue a complicated one and I haven't formulated a coherent viewpoint on it, but I will say one thing. We in the US must be careful not to superimpose our own ideals (the desirability of independence) on other countries.

Consider the following excerpt:

Taiwan�s Will To Fight

Taipei�s military challenges are not lost on Beijing. The island�s apparent lack of political consensus over addressing them with substantially increased defense spending is undoubtedly seen as an encouraging trend in Beijing. If successful, PLA modernization will threaten that Taiwan autonomy by enabling Beijing to launch a devastating standoff attack with insufficient warning time for foreign forces to mobilize and deploy to aid Taiwan. Taiwan�s declining defense spending thus comes at a time when the island�s need to improve its own deterrent options is apparent.

One possible reason for Taiwan�s attitude toward defense spending might be diverging perceptions of economic and military trends in the Taiwan Strait. Even as the PLA steadily fields more ballistic missiles and modern air and naval systems, Taiwan�s need for low-wage labor and China�s seeming unlimited need for investment capital and managerial expertise are concurrently expanding cross-Strait economic interdependence. The several hundred thousand s of Taiwan�s 23 million residents living and working on the mainland are a substantial group with a vested interest in avoiding any cross-Strait tension.

Source: FY04 REPORT TO CONGRESS ON PRC MILITARY POWER (Pursuant to the FY2000 National Defense Authorization Act), ANNUAL REPORT ON THE MILITARY POWER OF THE PEOPLE�S REPUBLIC OF CHINA. P.48

-koji K.

[edit on 2-8-2004 by koji_K]

Kojii The report you quoted says that china wants to launch a massive attack really fast so foreign forces cannot respond. I wander if the Us is sending 7 carrier fleets to answer this question. and zcheng if you don't want take me on take someone else, but your scared you only like people who agree to your points of view debate jazzmaster if you don't like me.


[edit on 2-8-2004 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Kojii The report you quoted says that china ants to launch a massive attack really fast so foreign forces cannot respond. I wander if the Us is sending 7 carrier fleets to answer this question. and zcheng if you don't want take me on take someone else, but your scared you only like people who agree to your points of view debate jazzmaster if you don't like me.

Just to clarify, it didn't say China "wants" to.. it said it has the ability to. The point of my cut-and-paste was really in the second paragraph. Also, the "Summer Pulse" exercises are over. The US currently only has 2 carrier groups in the western pacific.

-koji K.

China will only make the biggest mistake by invading Taiwan expeditively. This will cause an uproar of angers from the world.
Chinese's forces are not really technological advanced. The tactic they use no doubt would be really brutal. The less technological advanced your troops are, the more casualties they would cause. Let's just think for a second, who will be the most likely to be in the blade of Chinese forces? the people of Taiwan, of couse, preferably civilians.

By studying history, you could really conlcude that. Those failed to understand history doomed to repeat it. Take the US for instance, US forces destroyed i think over 65 percent of Iraq's industrial during the war in just a really short amount of time. Now we are paying for that. We are spending billions and billions of dollars to rebuild Iraq's economy. We are now the most technological advanced military force in the world and we caused a lot of damage, think how China would do if they were to do what the US did, disastrous.

But our forces only targeted buildings, China WILL no doubt attack civilans. In my opinion, the world will step in and stop this madness. China will not able to block the media like they did in their own country. Western media are all over Taiwan (CNN, BBC, FOX, etc...). There will not be any cover-ups from the Chinese because simply they just can't. China is not credible in the field of telling the truth.

I dont know what China is planning, but whatever it is, it will be met with a lot of critizism and protests. Plus Taiwan now holds a lot of contracts for export, you think China can fulfill those contracts?

Originally posted by germ

My point I will argue is this: Taiwan has been out of Chinese control for 50+ years.

What to you mean 50+ years, try more than 100 years!!!! In fact, Taiwan was never under a Han Chinese dynasty! It was a province of the Qing Dynasty (Manchus) for less than a decade in the late 19th century and was treaty as little more than a colony (and an unwanted one at that) for the two centuries previous (also under the Manchu Qing Dynasty.)

Taiwan is NOT a part of China, PERIOD!

Originally posted by ludahai
What to you mean 50+ years, try more than 100 years!!!! In fact, Taiwan was never under a Han Chinese dynasty! It was a province of the Qing Dynasty (Manchus) for less than a decade in the late 19th century and was treaty as little more than a colony (and an unwanted one at that) for the two centuries previous (also under the Manchu Qing Dynasty.)
Taiwan is NOT a part of China, PERIOD!

Do you know who controlled Taiwan before Qing Dynasty united it again?
Was he a Japanese, or American?

Originally posted by jazzmaster
By studying history, you could really conlcude that. Those failed to understand history doomed to repeat it. Take the US for instance, US forces destroyed i think over 65 percent of Iraq's industrial during the war in just a really short amount of time. Now we are paying for that. We are spending billions and billions of dollars to rebuild Iraq's economy. We are now the most technological advanced military force in the world and we caused a lot of damage, think how China would do if they were to do what the US did, disastrous.

Taiwan is part of China. It is the duty of all 1.3 Billion Chinese to defend the sovereignty and integrity of China. Even today in Taiwan, more than half consider themselves as Taiwanese as well as Chinese. Thanks for your worry.

With your criteria US would have won Vietnam and Control all Korea. When facing Chinese Army, you have to be more considerate and cautious. The only thing PLA has to prepare is the possibility of US and Japan intervention, since PLA Navy is not strong enough to match US Navy. But China has enough missiles, airplanes, and submarines to defeat any intervention near Taiwan.

Originally posted by zcheng

Originally posted by jazzmaster
By studying history, you could really conlcude that. Those failed to understand history doomed to repeat it. Take the US for instance, US forces destroyed i think over 65 percent of Iraq's industrial during the war in just a really short amount of time. Now we are paying for that. We are spending billions and billions of dollars to rebuild Iraq's economy. We are now the most technological advanced military force in the world and we caused a lot of damage, think how China would do if they were to do what the US did, disastrous.

Taiwan is part of China. It is the duty of all 1.3 Billion Chinese to defend the sovereignty and integrity of China. Even today in Taiwan, more than half consider themselves as Taiwanese as well as Chinese. Thanks for your worry.

With your criteria US would have won Vietnam and Control all Korea. When facing Chinese Army, you have to be more considerate and cautious. The only thing PLA has to prepare is the possibility of US and Japan intervention, since PLA Navy is not strong enough to match US Navy. But China has enough missiles, airplanes, and submarines to defeat any intervention near Taiwan.

Well see my friend, it is not just that matter of military force, it is a matter of diplomacy.

Taiwan has established itself as a strong, independent nation in the international community not by military forces, but by its economy. Here are some statistics:

- Taiwan is ranked 16th in the world in terms of money made from exports at 143 billions dollars a year, while China is ranked at 5th at 436 billions dollars.
- Taiwan imports from Japan and the US at 24% and 16%. Imports from China is only at 7%. Taiwan is not so ever dependent of China as a lot of people think. In fact, Taiwan is the only Asian country that does not import majorly from China,.

The world and investors realize that Taiwan is a major economic powerhouse and they will do everything un their power to stop this invasion. Like i said before, China will not be able to fulfill Taiwan's export contracts if they ever controlled the country.
Remember, corporations in the West influence their governments' decisions! unlike the East. Hey we have one example right now. The US entered Iraq for many reasons including the attempt to have control of its mass oil reserve. My point is not only will China face the US and Japan, they will face other countries in the world, for instance, South Korea. South Korea is the third major investor in Taiwan, they will have some kind of aids for Taiwan if not militarily.

I say this over and over again, the US and Taiwan will be fighting a defensive war, not offensive. The reason for loosing in Vietnam and Korea is because we prepared for the wrong type of war. We did not know the terrains very well. we fought those who lived and died in those lands, the natives knew their advantages and disadvantages. Our troops did not even dress for the right climate, which made us extremely easy to be spotted and vunerable to deseases and that sort of things. After those two wars, we finally started to learn the fighting tactics for the right climate and terrains. Take the Gulf War for instance, our troops were carefully dressed and equipped the right equipments.

Now back to Taiwan, China knows about Taiwan's terrains and climate as much a a tourist does. They are not familiar with the land as the Taiwansese and the US because we have been studying every part of that country for over a decade now. We know where to fight and trap those Chinese soldiers just like a guerilla fighter would.
The tactic for fighting this war will be the same as WWI and WWII, face to face, what else can China puill out of its pocket? The only thing China has the its mass amount of troops. But the thing is any one of those soldiers have not been trained properly nor shot more bullets than a regular deer hunter in America. That is the problem with China, they have size but they have no coordination.
It's not the size that matters, it's how you use it

I have heard that we will do nothing if China invades Tiawan. We cannot stop them if we tried. There are too many. If this was just talk and we did do something dumb, no one will win. Freedom will be China's choice.

Westpoint,

Don't worry about it...
It's not worth the time to debate an indoctrinated, communist, terrorist
sympathiser, like zcheng.
He is way past long gone, and you can't teach a communist dog new tricks..

It's obvious that he is green with envy, over the freedoms that others enjoy.
And he types like he's reading right out of Mao Tse Dung's little book..
Yes, I said DUNG...

Space

Are we selling them the upgraded PAC-3 or the older PAC-2. Even it is still PAC-2 we will pick out the incoming chinese missles from the sky, I think China should be afraid, be very afraid, mauahahahahahaahah.

Originally posted by jazzmaster
Now back to Taiwan, China knows about Taiwan's terrains and climate as much a a tourist does.

We can only find when the war begins. You are entitled to your judgement.

Those seeking Taiwan Independence should know, when the war starts the High Tech factories will be likedly destroyed, and their good life will come to an end. There is no benefit to both mainland and Taiwan.

If Taiwan is a independent nation now. I would like to know when it gained Independence, and where was its capital at that time.

Originally posted by spacedoubt
Westpoint,
Don't worry about it...
It's not worth the time to debate an indoctrinated, communist, terrorist
sympathiser, like zcheng.
He is way past long gone, and you can't teach a communist dog new tricks..

Great. It is fair, since Westy is in my ignore list for quite sometime now.

Originally posted by zcheng

Originally posted by jazzmaster
Now back to Taiwan, China knows about Taiwan's terrains and climate as much a a tourist does.

We can only find when the war begins. You are entitled to your judgement.

Those seeking Taiwan Independence should know, when the war starts the High Tech factories will be likedly destroyed, and their good life will come to an end. There is no benefit to both mainland and Taiwan.

If Taiwan is a independent nation now. I would like to know when it gained Independence, and where was its capital at that time.

Zcheng, you made my point! Yes finally. Those high tech zones are heavily invested by the US, European countries. Since, they are are so, the investors are more or less concerned about their business goind down the drain in Taiwan and they will do everything in their power to stop this invasion. Like i said before, corporations and businesses in the West greatly influence their governments' decision making, and it will apply for this case. China not only will go against Taiwan alone, but they will face international forces in that course.

China in fact will not destroy those high-tech zones, but rather they will attack garbage targets at the coast of Taiwan because that is as far as their ground troops will go before they are scattered around by artileries. I believe Taiwan has some sort of missile defense against China, the Patriots perhaps? I'm not familiar with it but i hear they are very effective in shooting down missiles and aircrafts. Heck they shot down a British fighter during the Gulf War by mistake.

[edit on 15-8-2004 by jazzmaster]