Overwhelming Evidence Pentagon Aircraft Data Is Not From An American Airlines 757

reply to post by civilchallenger

The resident "debunkers" (Hooper, Dereks, etc) totally ignored every single one of these points, except for Dereks who essentially said "nuh-uh" without any explanation whatsoever regarding the flight deck door on page one.

The door issue is mute..
It makes sense that the sensor was not connected if anything..
It's impossible to believe that the door was never opened as the pilots at least open it to get coffee etc, even on short flights..

Originally posted by hooper

I won't bother asking for some reference for that make believe Gallup poll because I know it doesn't exist.

Well... I don't know. There is some evidence of Gallup polls disappearing - but I agree, based on my discussions with others, that 85% is a wee bit high. I'd give it 68-70%.

reply to post by smurfy


Constantly confusing and confusing the issue, huh??

...the white smoke is attributed to an engine dragging the ground.

Only YOU have "attributed" such an outlandish claim. This is seen, though....countless times. The "TM" believer types come into threads, and just make stuff up off the tops of their heads.....the ACTUAL theories on any "smoke" (if there was some) are out there, and available to read. NONE of them suggest "dragging" an engine on the ground....only YOU....

.... and it contradictory also to one skypilot here at ATS ....

Well, no it doesn't! See above....YOU made it up!

....who has opined that the 'plane was in a dive.

Heh....I thought there, for a moment, you might have been referring to ME as the "skypilot"....but, was not I who said that the "plane was in a dive". Must have been another "skypilot"....

No, the airplane was descending, most of the straight-in portion of the approach, and the nearer he got to the ground, the shallower the descent became. NOT a "dive"....a descent, ever-decreasing in rate, as he reduced the downward motion to nearly level...NEARLY level, and then only for the last few hundred feet, at most. Since it was moving at about ~850 feet per second, those few hundred feet got eaten up in less than one second....do the math.

...(had to be) even level slightly lower than a lamp standard.

It impacted FIVE light poles, in fact. The first one, nearer the top of the pole, than the later ones, in progression. Per the gradual descent inbound.

_____
First, though, this video for orientation and visualization purposes



"Pentagone - Les dernières minutes du Vol 77" -- translated is, "Pentagon - The final minutes of Flight 77".

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As it passed abeam the Navy Annex buildings, it was just over those rooftops:



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Building impact damage pattern (From the "Pentagon Building Performance Report", available by Internet search, and a down-loadable PDF format):



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Overhead diagram of last few hundred feet of ground track, and locations of the light poles affected:




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Finally, the Pentagon Memorial, viewed from the approximate same perspective as the airplane approached. Those lines, in the ground memorial design, represent the magnetic course of the path:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/751e0ce72f8c.jpg[/atsimg]


_____________________________________________________________________________________

reply to post by civilchallenger


May I commend you on a fine and salient post. The debunkers make a lot of claims, and seldom just offer links to things they claim, and frequently when one goes hunting for the info, one cannot find it. And further requests for links and direction go ignored.

"Skeptic?" No. Pseudoskeptic at best. At worst... Heh. Well, I won't say "shill." Ooops. I just did.

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by civilchallenger

 

The resident "debunkers" (Hooper, Dereks, etc) totally ignored every single one of these points, except for Dereks who essentially said "nuh-uh" without any explanation whatsoever regarding the flight deck door on page one.

The door issue is mute..
It makes sense that the sensor was not connected if anything..
It's impossible to believe that the door was never opened as the pilots at least open it to get coffee etc, even on short flights..

Would it also make sense that a large number of airline pilots may rarely open the cockpit door in flight? It it was normal for the door to open on a lot of flights then I would think members of an organization called "Pilots for Truth" would know that. I imagine this has been discussed in depth on the P4T forums and I'll make it a point to see what they say about it.

Originally posted by dereks

Originally posted by Hendrix92TheUniverse
The cockpit door was never opened during the entire flight.

Very interesting.

Not that truther lie again, the door sensor was not connected so how could it show the door being opened?

Why do truthers persist in telling lies that have been debunked here many times before?

edit on 4/3/11 by dereks because: (no reason given)

Yeah that's not suspicious at all. Just like Building 7's alarm system being put into test mode for the day...one of about 100 convenient truths that day.

reply to post by civilchallenger

Would it also make sense that a large number of airline pilots may rarely open the cockpit door in flight? It it was normal for the door to open on a lot of flights then I would think members of an organization called "Pilots for Truth" would know that. I imagine this has been discussed in depth on the P4T forums and I'll make it a point to see what they say about it.

I've been on thousands of flights and even on the short hops (under 1 hour) I still see the flight attendants at least give a coffee to the pilots..

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by beyondsense

 

Hooper, quick question for ya? How much is the govt paying nowadays to go to forums and try to debunk the truth? Is it enough to buy sleeping pills to go to bed at night with a clean conscience? You guys are so easy to spot in the crowd. Like your comment that "most people believe the official story", try more like 85% of Americans (according to Gallup) don't believe a single word of the official story. I'll let you take your sleeping pills and go to bed now. I also noticed you post with several different aliases on ATS...interesting considering it's so easy to disguise one's IP nowadays...

Well you're way too clever for me. I'll have to give up the game now. Hope I don't lose my gig.

I won't bother asking for some reference for that make believe Gallup poll because I know it doesn't exist.

I always love this stuff. This self-inflating belief that your search for the "truth" is such a threat to the Powers That Be that they hire people to try and sidetrack you on your quest.

By the way - can you name me at least one of my aliases?

You're response is just what one would expect from a disinfo agent...right out of the textbook. I'm not too clever for you, you're simply way too predictable. I mean let's get real, why would anyone (this means you) who doesn't believe in a conspiracy, join a conspiracy forum and fight tooth and nail to protect the govt. version of distorted made up lies??? You seem way too interested in protecting the govt. lies and while you're at it, you provide absolutely zero evidence to counter the OP...I guess this is why 80% of the population is clever than you and do NOT believe the govt. story on 9/11...

This whole thing is still alive?!

When will these people just go away and get a real education?!

reply to post by civilchallenger


Thank you for summarizing....from your post, just the "Top Five":

To summarize the evidence you linked to:

1. The flight data recorder (FDR) is not in an American Airlines format.
2. The flight deck door was never reported as being open to FDR.
3. There was a severe mismatch in coordinates that should have grounded the flight.
4. The flight data recorder lists the GPS as operational when American Airlines did not have any GPS units at that time on any of their craft.
5. An "auto-alignment" was done on the aircraft according to the FDR. American Airlines airlines flights however did not have that capability at the time.

#1? Is THAT the claim made by PfffT?? Laughably, incontrovertibly wrong.

#2? I am aware that the clowns at PfffT are still clinging to that pathetic, and utterly debunked LIE. How sad.....

#3? Oh?? Well, again....the PfffT claims are, shall we say, in "error".

#4? Really?? Just like the Flight Deck Door parameter....how much you wanna bet??

#5? BS!! Utter, complete rubbish. The IRS units are aligned, AT THE GATE, with the engines off...about one half hour before departure. This, shortly after the crew arrives, and begins cockpit set-up. Whole process takes less than ten minutes. The SSFDR does NOT OPERATE until the engines are started, and the engine-driven generators ore supplying normal AC and DC power to the normal electrical buses.

Oh, as per the style of Balsamo and Friends ("friends" usually refers to his many sock-puppets, here on ATS), this latest screed is LOADED with falsehoods, almost on the money, but not quite references, and more of the same typical hogwash to over-complicate the "point" they are attempting to make....

....it is called, in some circles, "Smoke and Mirrors". "Razzmatazz".

And, "Baffle 'em with B----" also, in other less refined settings. Oh, there is a LOT to go over, and to dissect, lay open, and tear apart and repair, in order to find the truth, out of the normal MESS that spews from the creative little "Balsamo Brain" (Pat. Pending).....

reply to post by weedwhacker

...it is called, in some circles, "Smoke and Mirrors". "Razzmatazz".

Sorry but I'd call YOUR posts "Smoke and Mirrors"..

Let's face it weed, you don't exactly refute their points with anything even close to resembling proof..

Just your usual rants of nothing...

Originally posted by backinblackSorry but I'd call YOUR posts "Smoke and Mirrors"..

"Truthers" say that when presented to facts.

Everything in weedwhackers post is spot on


P4 911T

reply to post by weedwhacker

As it passed abeam the Navy Annex buildings, it was just over those rooftops:

Can you give an explanation as to why there is no footage of the airplane approaching the building? Just out of curiosity.

Originally posted by C46driver

Originally posted by backinblackSorry but I'd call YOUR posts "Smoke and Mirrors"..

"Truthers" say that when presented to facts.

Everything in weedwhackers post is spot on


P4 911T

edit on 4-3-2011 by C46driver because: boozed

I'd agree with you IF there was anything actually in weedwhackers post..

Simply calling BS is not exactly worthy of being called debate...

reply to post by Tallone


Should get your eyes checked....

Here is photo of hole from right wing of AA77



Wider shot I posted earlier



Here are numerous photo's of the impact area

www.911review.com...

Here is report from Arlington FD where Pentagon is located

The following annotated photos show exactly the locations of impact damage on the Pentagon E-ring facade. The outer limestone facade was breached between column lines 8 and 18, producing a hole spanning approximately 96 feet. Additional impact damage can be found between columns 5 and 8 and between columns 18 and 20. The entire width of impacted facade measured at least 140 feet, as indicated by the building plan in the Arlington After Action Report.

www.co.arlington.va.us...

As for proof of your "theory" - have a problem with reading comprehension where I described the differnece in
impact energy from Empire State and 9 /11

The difference is even greater at the WTC because the 767 is a larger aircraft - more mass = greater force

Impact energy is some 100 TIMES OR MORE at WTC than at Empire State in 1945

Do the math - 3 x the velocity, square it, multiply by 10 (for Pentagon) or 15 (for WTC)

Add in fuel load, 5500 gal (36,000 lbs) at Pentagon and 9000-9500 gal (60,000 lbs) at WTC

Max fuel load of a B25 is 975 gal (according to reference book of WWII aircraft)

reply to post by jackflap

Can you give an explanation as to why there is no footage of the airplane approaching the building? Just out of curiosity.

Ahh because there were no cameras pointed in the right direction.. ......

Security cameras are aimed at specifc locations, usually cashiers in a store (to get pictures of robbers) or
at doors or enterences (to make a record of people entering/leaving)

They are not looking for errant airplanes flying past

The only footage is from a camera in one of the parking lots which caught a few frames of AA77 as it slammed
into building

reply to post by thedman

Security cameras are aimed at specifc locations, usually cashiers in a store (to get pictures of robbers) or
at doors or enterences (to make a record of people entering/leaving)

Or at heliports where Vips come and go, looking for incoming aircraft...

Sometimes I think half the people in the 9/11 forum were created by HBGary Federal.

How is it that they will not admit to having a single unanswered question about 9/11? How is it that every single new piece of evidence against the OS is condemned without even a "maybe, it's possible but I doubt it?" It's always "nope.. never... your wrong, you idiot ‘truthers.’" Why do these people spend their entire day everyday on 9/11 forums posting against the grain? How can they believe the government's story with 100% certainty?

Because they are the government.

It’s how hard they try on every little detail that makes it so painstakingly obvious.

If we ever want to get anywhere in our discussion without being throw off topic a hundred times by "faithers" we all need to block them cohesively, get our thoughts together, study the material presented, decide for ourselves if it is fact or fiction, and find the holes if there are any. Then and only then we can let the dis-info agents have a crack at disputing it. That way we can sit back and watch them all struggle together as they try to disprove something that is irrefutable. And it will be extremely easy to tell who is who.

The inability or unwillingness of people to link the two terrorist attacks on the U.S. that occurred within a span of seven days seem to be missing the big picture. If one wants to find those involved in 9/11 then I suggest we find those involved in the anthrax attacks. The government tried to pin it on a scientist and ended up paying millions to him in a lawsuit. They have now pinned it on another one that got "suicided" before it could get further. But by all evidence, he was not involved.

The anthrax used was from the U.S. government and it was an internal job, of that everyone is certain. To believe that it happened one week after 9/11 and not see the coincidence is really very concerning. It was just the second phase of the action in order to subvert the processes of the country and spread additional fear among the citizens.

All of us might get a little more insight if we look at these two incidents as part of a whole.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
#5? BS!! Utter, complete rubbish. The IRS units are aligned, AT THE GATE, with the engines off...about one half hour before departure. This, shortly after the crew arrives, and begins cockpit set-up. Whole process takes less than ten minutes. The SSFDR does NOT OPERATE until the engines are started, and the engine-driven generators ore supplying normal AC and DC power to the normal electrical buses.

If the IRS is aligned prior to engine start, why is is it more than 3000 feet in error when the FDR starts to record?



Capt Ralph Kolstad and numerous other pilots sourced in the article claim they would have never left the gate if they saw such a large error after inputting present position. Would you?

Do you have a flight time in an American Airlines 757?