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Originally posted by TimBrummer
They DID write it that way, subject in "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" is used in the citizenship sense, defined as "a person who owes allegiance to a government and lives under its protection".
The Senators confirmed this in their debate.
Originally posted by whatukno
Anyone care to research and assure the rest of us that this just won't strip everyone of their citizenship, thus opening up a reason for TPTB to enslave us all?
Originally posted by aptness
No they don’t, but the Court’s opinion of the 14th Amendment vis-a-vis children of illegal immigrants is clearly relevant, and that’s what I said in my post was it not?
Please don’t put words in my mouth. I said no such thing and I believe my comments regarding existing law are clear enough for anyone to understand.
Originally posted by aptness
Defined where? It’s nowhere in the Constitution or any statute.
So I reaffirm my position that, if it was really what they meant, and they didn’t mean the clause to be as broad as it’s interpreted, then they should have more carefully crafted the language.
Originally posted by aptness
That’s why they focus on what “the Senators said in the debate at the time” because they know the amendment’s language is as clear as they come.
Now, does the Senator from Wisconsin pretend to say that the Navajoe Indians are subject to the complete jurisdiction of the United States? What do we mean by “subject to the jurisdiction of the United States” Not owing allegiance to anybody else. This is what it means. Can you sue a Navajoe Indian in court? Are they in any sense subject to the complete jurisdiction of the United States? By no means. We make treaties with them, and therefore they are not subject to our jurisdiction.
If they are there and within the jurisdiction of Colorado, and subject to the laws of Colorado, they ought to be citizens; and that is all that is proposed. (…)
It is only those persons who come completely within our jurisdiction, who are subject to our laws, that we think of making citizens; and there can be no objection to the proposition that such persons should be citizens.
Originally posted by aptness
Immigrants, illegal or not, once they step in the United States are subject to US law. You can sue an immigrant in court. You can’t make treaties with immigrants.
The 14th Amendment addresses the child which is born in the United States, and not the parents.
Originally posted by Miraj
reply to post by johnny2127
Intentions not matter.
What is written matters.
Originally posted by TimBrummer
You can make treaties with countries the immigrants come from, just like the US has treaties with Indian tribes.
Originally posted by aptness
Immigrants, illegal or not, once they step in the United States are subject to US law.
Originally posted by TimBrummer
You don't understand how the Supreme Court works, they are supposed to consider the original intentions of the law when ruling on a case
If they had written “the color red” in an amendment but, in the debate, said they actually meant blue, would the Courts then have to read the language in the amendment as meaning blue and not what was actually written on it (red)?
Originally posted by TimBrummer
So why did the 14th authors include a "subject to the jurisdiction" clause, and have such a big discussion if it was redundant?
Originally posted by aptness
Originally posted by TimBrummer
You can make treaties with countries the immigrants come from, just like the US has treaties with Indian tribes.
Yes you can make treaties with countries the immigrants come from, but how is that relevant to the 14th Amendment?
Originally posted by aptness
I didn’t say it was redundant, what I said was that allegiance and jurisdiction are two different things.
They included the jurisdiction provision because they recognized there were circumstances in which people could be born in the United States and wouldn’t be necessarily subject to US law (diplomats, invading armies, Indian tribes).
Originally posted by aptness
If you could, I would be interested in reading your opinion on the, admittedly absurd, hypothetical scenario I previously described—
If they had written “the color red” in an amendment but, in the debate, said they actually meant blue, would the Courts then have to read the language in the amendment as meaning blue and not what was actually written on it (red)?
Thank you.
Originally posted by TimBrummer
Go visit Maywood California for a week, the population is over 50% illegal aliens, that is an example of a place that ignores US laws, is de-facto also not subject to them, there are hundreds of similar places in the USA. How are these illegal alien barrios any different than Indian tribes of 100 years ago?
Originally posted by aptness
My overall point is that what people are proposing through this bill can’t be done in this fashion, and that I don’t think changing the 14th Amendment is the solution to illegal immigration.
Originally posted by Sinnthia
Originally posted by freedish
reply to post by whatukno
GOOD! This is great news! Maybe finally we won't have a border problem.
I guess that holy constitution was only good for the last two years then. Now that the people that love it so much are in power, it is kind of meaningless?