Israel, the cause of all Arab terrorism...

Originally posted by RiwkaThus, in school textbooks and other publications it is often claimed that the land of modern Israel was in fact "stolen" from the Arabs and that the Palestinians were effectively "robbed" by the Jews.

This, of course, is nonsense. They bought it from them.

Although Palestinians have legitimate grievances, there is absolutely no historical basis to their claims - some of which are utterly ridiculous - that Palestine is exclusively theirs and that the Jews "stole" their land.

For the truth is that Jews have always lived in 'Palestine' and Jewish settlers did not, as it is often claimed by Arabs, seize land, but rather they bought it.

Critics and foes of Israel should recollect that the state of Israel was established by the Jews on Jewish and legitimately purchased land. And it was blessed by the United Nations and recognized by nations of the world, most notably the United States.

They did not purchase the entire land of Israel.
According to an Israeli goverment web site, they only had one tenth of the land.
Maps on Palestinian sites show it as even less.

Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs
By May 1948, when the Mandate expired and Israel was about to proclaim its statehood, land redemption had placed nearly one-tenth of the country under Jewish ownership, the rest being owned by the government or by Arabs.

The population at that time was mostly Arab:

US-Israel.org:
The Arabs constituted a majority of the population in Palestine as a whole-1.2 million Arabs versus 600,000 Jews.

Im not professing to be an expert on this or anything...nor do I have any web links. But I think it might be worthwhile to do some research into the water resources in the disputed states. My understanding of the situation is that the isrealis have more or less cuttoff water supplies to the palestinians, and the lands that are being disputed right now are the most water rich.

Basically there isnt enough water to support all the people, and the israelis are hoarding it. Something to look into, Im new and wouldnt know where to start looking for info on this.

Not sure about a few things here.

First of all, the 1948 borders were something Israel settled for in 1948 until their friendly neighbors decided no Israel should exist period. If you'll please read some historical reports of the situation it was not the Israelis that disrupted the 1948 UN drawn borders.

Secondly, it's really irrelevant what any of you think about the 1948 borders because Israel is simply not returning to those. They proved indefensible. They left Israel open to attacks, and if you don't believe me, well just look at what happened in 1948. The borders were so unrealistic that they were open to attack on multiple fronts. Israel will not be returning to its 1948 borders no matter what anyone thinks. Simple as that. As for the pre 1967 borders, once again this wasn't something Israel was actively pursuing. It's land they took over DIRECTLY as a result of being attacked AGAIN by their "neighbors". Much of the land kept was what they deemed necessary to keep hostile nations the hell away from them. What was not deemed necessary was returned (see Sinai Peninsula).

You can all sing happy songs from today till tomorrow, the bottom line is the countries Israel shares borders with has proven on multiple occasions that they do not want an Israel at all. Not in 67 borders, not in 48 borders, not at all.

Do you think they should give up most of their land to appease people that want to kill them? Apparently.

Will they? I don't know... why don't you hold your breath till it happens and let me know.

Originally posted by Valhall
And might I add, that since the Israeli's documented claims of the land being given to them by God for all times was considered irrelevant in the decision of whether they received their homeland or not, the "other side's" religion must also be kept separate when dealing in this LAND ISSUE.
[edit on 6-30-2004 by Valhall]

Nonsense. Jewish ideology is relevant in as much as it shapes the expectations of the other side regarding their security (assuming there were a reasonable other side). And Arab expansionism and the Islamofascist inclination to mass murder is relevant to the reasonable party involved (Israel), whether or not you acknowledge this, because it has proven to be a very good description of what can be expected if the situation is treated as a LAND ISSUE separate from the security issue.

Will they? I don't know... why don't you hold your breath till it happens and let me know.

Indeed.

Originally posted by Valhall
No, it is NOT relevant. If the Palestinians want to rule their lands with their theological rule, then anyone who doesn't like it needs to move out. It is NOT relevant.

Yeah, tell that to the Palestinians Valhall, lets see if they would listen.
Most of the Palestinians will not stop attacking or complaining about the Israelis until there is no Israel at all. That's what the majority of them want. Do you think the Israelis will accede to these demands? no. So the conflict will continue.

Originally posted by Valhall

Muaddib,

With all due respect, I have no problem whatsoever acknowledging that theocractic societies cannot and do not remove their religion from the legal and cultural codes. I have no problem understanding that.

But what you are apparently unable to do is approach this issue on the legalities and the commitments. If you can't objectively look at a land map, and if you can't objectively review the commitments made by the U.N. because you're too blinded by one party's religion - you're always going to be part of the "global problem" that has facilitated the situation as it is now.

According to your thinking, we would have never handed-over Iraq because, by golly they just might live by Shariah.

And might I add, that since the Israeli's documented claims of the land being given to them by God for all times was considered irrelevant in the decision of whether they received their homeland or not, the "other side's" religion must also be kept separate when dealing in this LAND ISSUE.

Again Valhall, you want to do this, but its not going to happen. Religion will always be part of the issue between Palestinians and the Israelis, always.

BTW if the Iraqis make Sharia law the rule of Iraq, then the native people of Iraq will be either ousted or killed, and only the Assyrians are the native people of Iraq. Yes, I think we should have made sure that the Assyrian Christians were also represented in the new government of Iraq. If you want to discuss this issue, then do your research into what has been happening to the Assyrians and get back to me, you shouldn't be making a comment in an issue you obviously have not researched. (If you wouldn't have been condescending, I wouldn't be anwsering this way either.)

The Israelis are not going to allow anyone make them weak again, and partitioning the land so that Palestinians are all around them will make sure to make Israel weak once more to even more attacks than ever before. It is not that this issue should be solved the way you or I see fit, if it was that simple, it would have been solved already a long time ago. The problem is the way both the Palestinians and the Israeli see this issue, and how they want to solve it.

[edit on 1-7-2004 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Djarums
Not sure about a few things here.

First of all, the 1948 borders were something Israel settled for in 1948 until their friendly neighbors decided no Israel should exist period. If you'll please read some historical reports of the situation it was not the Israelis that disrupted the 1948 UN drawn borders.

Secondly, it's really irrelevant what any of you think about the 1948 borders because Israel is simply not returning to those

Yes. And - there is something to add:

NOBODY wants Israel to return to the 1948 borders - There are no negotiantios about that item

Check it out:

Oslo documents

Declaration of Principles: Israel-PLO Agreement, September 1993
Israel-PLO Agreements on Preparatory Transfer of Powers, August 1994
Israel-Jordan Peace Treaty, October 1994
Wye River Memorandum, October 1998
Sharm El-Sheikh Memorandum, September 1999

and

Camp David Summit, Joint Statement, July 2000
Sharm El-Sheikh Summit, US-Egyptian Statement, October 2000
Mitchel-Report April 2001
Tenet Plan June 2001
The Geneva Accord
Road Map
UN Security Council Resolution 1515

So why want to discuss something nobody else is thinking about?

Arab world uses the Palestinian refugees as a key motivation for violence, ignoring the fact that there would have been no refugees had Israel�s Arab neighbors not launched a war to destroy the tiny Jewish state immediately upon its birth.

(Indeed, Arabs who chose to stay in Israel are today Israeli citizens, as are their children, enjoying more freedoms than do the citizens of neighboring Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia or even Jordan. )

PLO charter, which denies Israel's right to exist, was never changed and a series of speeches and interviews by Arafat and other leaders suggests they still seek to destroy Israel - what they call liberate all of �Palestine�.

PA even invited Hamas (which also leaves possibility open of participating in PA elections), Aksa Martyrs Brigades and Islamic Jihad members to join the Palestinian Authority security forces.

These are organizations that have stated very clearly that they want the destruction of Israel.

Would you imagine that a terrorist group would run for election in the United States or any other democracy?

Who are you going to negotiate with then?



.

If the arabs had not set out to destoy Israel then maybe they wouldn't have these problems.

Um, people, the Palestinians didn't "exist" until Israel was formed again. When the Jews weren't there there was no Palestinian or people wanting to form a Palestine. It wasn't until the Jews bought/given the land the the Palestinians popped up. Look it up, before 1940, no Palestinian movement for a Palestine. Until then they were all happy with what they had. Then the Jews move in next door and they start blowing up literally.

The Palestinians can other move out or stop blowing things up. How quick would Israel give up land if the bombings stopped? Hell, they'd be ready to move back to the 1960's border if the bombings stopped. But no, the Palestinians will not stop until every jew is gone.

And with peace talks, here is the order. Jews meet Palestinian, Jews agree to move troops out if the Palestinians will stop bombing. A Jewish bus station gets blown up, talks still on. A Jewish hospital gets blown up talks still going. A terrorist leader is killed and the talks are over. Repeat. If the Paletinians would stop supporting the bombings they would have their government! But no, ever watch CNN or other major news program? Israel kills a terrorist leader after 4-5 attacks, the Palestinians flow into the streets burning israel flags, doing that lalalalalalalalalalalalalala thing, shooting guns into the air, blowing things up, so forth. And it isn't just a few Palestinians, it is all of them. Dressing their kids up as terrorist bombers, dressing themselves up as terrorist bombers, so forth. If the attacks would stop Israel would probably listen.

Also, I really don't think that Israel should give up land. If it would stop the attacks then yes do give up land, but still isn't right. They exist for a few days, about 5 nations attack them, Israel wins and takes the land and keeps the land they won. A few years later they attacked again, they win again. Few years later they attacked again they win again. Everytime they win they get land and the Arabs cry and whine to the UN that Israel stole their land. Damn, the Jews should just nuke the bastards. Well, no, warn them that say, if attacked ten more times they are going to nuke this city. Then after the tenth attack say alright, one more and we nuke that city. So when of course the dumbass Arabs attack again, Nuke the city you said you were going to nuke. When the Arabs see that you are serious about the nuking thing, maybe they will back off. If they don't, nuke another Arab city for every attack. Then when there are none left, Israel has won the War on Terror.BTW-How come GWB doesn't go after the terrorists in Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria? That's right, god didn't tell him to invade those countries.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Um, people, the Palestinians didn't "exist" until Israel was formed again. When the Jews weren't there there was no Palestinian or people wanting to form a Palestine. It wasn't until the Jews bought/given the land the the Palestinians popped up. Look it up, before 1940, no Palestinian movement for a Palestine.

The was no movement for a Palestine because Palestine already existed.
Palestinians did exist.
They had both Arab Palestinians and Jewish Palestinins, with the Arab Palestinians vastly outnumbering the Jewish Palestinians.

[edit on 3-7-2004 by AceOfBase]

Well, I would say that James is right about one thing though. Thought there was indeed Palestinians before Israel, they made no attempt in 400 years to become a nation...that, they didn't do.

Originally posted by James the Lesser

Look it up, before 1940, no Palestinian movement for a Palestine. Until then they were all happy with what they had. Then the Jews move in next door and they start blowing up literally.

Let's not forget the www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> Khartum Resolutions of September 1, 1967,
when the Arab League issued the infamous three "no's":


No peace with Israel.
No negotiations with Israel.
No recognition of Israel."

.