Israel, the cause of all Arab terrorism...

Originally posted by Valhall

Again, this is not what the historical record shows. But the historical record does show the opposite, that there was a concerted effort to increase, through emigration and colonization, the Jewish presence in the Arab-Palestinian lands in order to out-number the Arab population. You are speaking from a pre-conceived notion, not from fact. Read the historical record. Then come back and discuss this.

Speculation on what the ultimate "Muslim" idea of the world is does not fit into this discussion...

Valhall, I do not dwell merely in speculation, and you should know that.

First the Palestinians follow Sharia law under Islam, and Sharia law as stated by Muslim clerics, covers every aspect of day to day life. This law is immutable, it does not change with the times, what was law in the past when Islam was in its infancy, is law today also.

Now, what I mentioned about the Assyrian Christians being invaded by Arab Muslims is also a fact. It is based on history and not on speculation.

" One of the greatest Assyrian achievements of the fourth century was the founding of the first university in the world. The School of Nisibis had three departments: theology, philosophy and medicine, and became a magnet and center of intellectual development in the Middle East. The statutes of the School of Nisibis, which have been preserved, later became the model upon which the first Italian university was based.

When Arabs and Islam swept through the Middle East in 630 A.D., they encountered 600 years of Assyrian Christian civilization, with a rich heritage, a highly developed culture, and advanced learning institutions. It is this civilization which became the foundation of the Arab civilization.

But this great Assyrian Christian civilization would come to an end in 1300 A.D. The tax which the Arabs levied on Christians, simply for just being Christian, forced many Assyrians to convert to Islam to avoid the tax; this inexorably drained the community, so that by the time Timurlane the Mongol delivered the final blow in 1300 A.D. "

Excerpted from.
www.aina.org...

Originally posted by Valhall
You are speaking from a two-faced stance of saying that the Jewish Homeland should be there - which only happened by the U.N. resolution - but that the terms of the resolution don't apply...

The Jews had no right to land in "Palestine" because of the UN Resolution anymore than some Congolese tribe would have if they were mentioned in the resolution. Jewish right to the land comes from history that happened to extend millennia before the self-important UN came into existence.

The UN put forward an unworkable plan, a plan of Israelis and "Palestinians" living side by side surrounded by the Arab states. That plan has been proven infeasible. The Palestinians themselves violated the plan. People still clamor for UN Resolutions to be observed.

Muaddib

It DOES NOT APPLY to the discussion.

I don't care if they live by Barney law. It doesn't matter.

The Israeli's have encroached on the land set aside for the Palestinians...period. We will deal with ill-intentions on a later date. But that is not what we are dealing with now.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Now, what I mentioned about the Assyrian Christians being invaded by Arab Muslims is also a fact. It is based on history and not on speculation.

This is relevant. It justifies expectations on the Israeli side of what can be expected by the enlightened Islamic tribesmen. We have not seen any change in attitude from the war-loving tribal side. Let them rot.

Look I'm sure everyone can agree that Israel's claim beyond its original borders is not "right" in the sense that it does hurt people. Most of this land was claimed when the Palestinians left for whatever reasons (Arabs say Jewish terrorists, Israelis say Arabs told the Palestinians to get out of the way while the Arab Armies crush Israel).

There is one fact, that the UN only partitioned, more like proposed, a Palestinian state.

The fact is NO ONE claimed that state, the Palestinians didn't, the Arabs sure didn't and proved that when the Arabs invaded and took over the West Bank and Gaza strip. To Jordan and Egypt respectively.

So like an unclaimed bag of money, whoever holds it is the claimer.

It was the Israelis till not long ago, but now policies with the PLO have set an attempt to allow the PLO some control of regions in those areas which may or may not lead to the creation of a Palestinian state in those areas.

But to say that the Palestinians deserve the 1948 boundaries is not justified by history because the Palestinians rejected it. They weren't "silenced" by anyone, they spoke their piece and it was "no, we don't want that land we want all the land".

Valhall, that nice long list of "historical facts", are you trying to tell me that there is a recognized "Palestine" that the Israelis are cheating the Palestinians out of?

Originally posted by HeirToBokassa

Originally posted by Muaddib
Now, what I mentioned about the Assyrian Christians being invaded by Arab Muslims is also a fact. It is based on history and not on speculation.

This is relevant. It justifies expectations on the Israeli side of what can be expected by the enlightened Islamic tribesmen. We have not seen any change in attitude from the war-loving tribal side. Let them rot.

No, it is NOT relevant. If the Palestinians want to rule their lands with their theological rule, then anyone who doesn't like it needs to move out. It is NOT relevant.

And I'm not sure what you are telling me is a "misconception".

The fact that Israel created itself? The fact that Palestine is NOT a recognized nation, the fact that the Arabs had invaded what was supposed to become Palestine, what?

That long list of references was posted when I was talking about the UN only partitioning more like "proposing" the two nations and the Arabs left the UN decision and would not allow the creation of an Israel, that has to be my assumption then on what you are saying is "wrong".

Originally posted by FreeMason
Valhall, that nice long list of "historical facts", are you trying to tell me that there is a recognized "Palestine" that the Israelis are cheating the Palestinians out of?

Yes, that is exactly what I am telling you. Read the resolution of 1947 - the partitioning plan. That's exactly what it says...there's a Palestine. And the Israeli's who are living on the land marked "Palestine", or - I'll go even further there - NOT MARKED ISRAEL, are in violation of that partitioning plan.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. And I'm saying that if the world community would make the hard decision, which also happens to be the right decision, and rectify this situation, we could then start anew.

And probably have a whole new basket of problems to deal with, but not the one we have now - and the one we have now is a world community that voted "this is the way it will be" and then let it go an entirely different way.

Valhall, that's right, IF the Palestinians want that theological rule.

Funny thing is (going back to what I've stated several times before), the Palestinians do not WANT that.

Every time some group within the many under the umbrella of the PLO agrees with terms for creating a Palestinian state, the others remove that group from "agreeing". Either by assassination, or by terrorist attacks on Israel to promote a break-up of the discussions, or by refusing to agree with it and thus there is no legitimacy.

So how do you get over that problem?

Originally posted by FreeMason
Valhall, that's right, IF the Palestinians want that theological rule.

Funny thing is (going back to what I've stated several times before), the Palestinians do not WANT that.

Every time some group within the many under the umbrella of the PLO agrees with terms for creating a Palestinian state, the others remove that group from "agreeing". Either by assassination, or by terrorist attacks on Israel to promote a break-up of the discussions, or by refusing to agree with it and thus there is no legitimacy.

So how do you get over that problem?

You don't. You stick with what you said you would do and let them work out their own problems. This is NOT about what they believe or how they want to live, this is about a commitment concerning land...period.

But Valhall, no nation on earth recognizes the existence of any "Palestine". There are no Palestinian embassies. So what you are arguing is irrelevant, had the process come to fruition with a recognized Palestine, then what the Israelis did could have been seen as an act of pure aggression against another state.

But no one recognizes any such state. Not even the Palestinians.

No, what you are arguing is disingenuous. There are no Palestinian embassies because we refuse to recognize them as a nation.

But that is the problem Valhall, without a Palestinian state, the Palestinians are in a state of Apartheid by the Israelis and by the Arab nations that will not accept them as citizens.

Therefore how do you settle the "ownership" of the West Bank and Gaza, who governs it, who administers laws and who makes those laws? So it's not like Israel can just say "fine these are the borders, we are Israel you are Palestine make a nation" because the Palestinians keep attacking Israel, they have no government and if the Israelis would do nothing (which they would) the Arabs would occupy those remaining lands and administer it for themselves.

Originally posted by FreeMason
And I'm not sure what you are telling me is a "misconception".

The fact that Israel created itself? The fact that Palestine is NOT a recognized nation, the fact that the Arabs had invaded what was supposed to become Palestine, what?

That long list of references was posted when I was talking about the UN only partitioning more like "proposing" the two nations and the Arabs left the UN decision and would not allow the creation of an Israel, that has to be my assumption then on what you are saying is "wrong".

The Palestinians were by majority Arab Freemason! And they're lack of cooperation led to the partitioning, but they had no power to "not allow the creation of an Israel"...it was created...just like a Palestine was created. FOR GOD'S SAKE READ THE DAMNED THE RECORD.

And after you do...u2u me. I'll come back and see what you have to say from an educated standpoint.

id say just create a new nation, istine perhaps. everyone shld just live their just the way it is less the violence. if ur a shopkeeper, just keep on being a shopkeeper. in the end its a just a change of name. i feel theres too much politics and religious propaganda that have been a major stumbling block to peace in this region.

there are many countries that are multi-cultural with religious freedom and tolerance and respect of one another. im sure if we ask each and everyone of the israelites and palestinians, the majority would just want to continue living their lives in peace.

with the help of the UN i believe this can be achieved.

but again i know what ive just said is preposterous to some since theres so much at stake and vested interests. i guess only a great leader will be able to achieve this, maybe someone of mixed israeli and palestinian parentage.

Valhall there is no recognition because there is no government. Who do you recognize? The Intifada, the Hamas, the numerous groups that govern the Palestinian regions? If Yassir Arafat were to be given recognition over a set territory, the first thing he'd do is say "no" (if he were not being eaten away by alzheimers or whatever) because the second he says yes, some Palestinian will kill him and say no in his place.

agent that will not work because the Israelis will not lose their Jewish state, that's the whole point of Israel.

Valhall you think that a country can be partitioned and thus "exist" if it is not excepted by the people of that to-be country?

Here is Palestine as the Palestinians view it.

Originally posted by Valhall
Muaddib

It DOES NOT APPLY to the discussion.

I don't care if they live by Barney law. It doesn't matter.

Well, you should care since for them Sharia is used for every aspect of day to day life, including politics. So it does apply to this thread. Also, Sharia being an immutable law that does not change with the times, gives us the insight that the way problems were dealt in the past, will most probably be dealt in the present and future according to Sharia law. Or at least we could discern "if" there are "possible" ways that problems could be avoided "if approached in the right way."

The problem Valhall is that you don't seem to want to acknowledge that even if religion for you is not important, it is important for the Arab world, and so it is for the Israelis because it affects them too. If you disregard the religion, then you are ignoring an important part of this conflict, you are actually ignoring the conflict as Sharia is the law of the Muslim world.