I would like to point out to some skeptics who believe Palestinians have certain rights, that if you use the above search function at that website and search for "Palestine" you will find 51 hits, all are about Israel.

My question is did Israel even have the right to become a state. Obviously, WWII was a horrible thing, but did Israel need to be established among the Palestinians in the first place, if at all.

I think Israel has no right to demand that the Palestinians do anything other than stop committing terrorist attacks in order to try to get their way.

Here's what I think needs to happen: Regress borders back to the 1948 green lines and start over. Allow Palestine to become a nation with sovereignty and respect in the eyes of the world. And slap the ever-loving piss out of either side every time they commit an act of violence across the border in the other's sovereign nation.

That's what I think should happen.

[edit on 6-29-2004 by Valhall]

More or less Jahmun, you can read the in depth answer in the site I posted I'm sure, the events leading up to 1948.

In short, Palestine was a British mandate, and Jews since the 1880s were flocking to Palestine. The Rothschildes were buying land from the Palestinians who were selling it for a hefty price (which is why aside from the horribly impoverished Palestinians, there are NUMEROUS millionaire Palestinians who are as well educated as the wealthier Jews), and so the Jews would move to those purchased lands and establish settlements and Kibbutz (a sort of communal farm).

When Britain could no longer afford to manage Palestine, it wanted to leave, and so the UN offered to create two states, Israel and Palestine.

The influx of Jews created an "Arab Nationalist" movement, which had a basic philosophy of "Everyone is anti-Arab and trying to push us out with these Jews."

So the Arabs then withdrew from the UN talks thus not allowing the creation of Israel and Palestine into two equal states for Jews and Muslims to be created.

So Israel then created itself and US and Soviet Union were first to recognize it in hopes of the Palestinians creating themselves.

Arab Nationalists wouldn't have that and launched the 1948 war against Israel, which almost drove Israel out. Since then Arab Nationalism has been up and down in the governments of the surrounding Arab states, but terrorist organizations were created from that belief of Israel being the culmination of a plot to destroy Arabs. The creation of Palestinian terrorist organizations is a bit more complicated, but more due to Arab-Israeli wars which left millions of Palestinians in limbo. Not citzens of any state.

Valhall, 1948 borders are too small for Israel, it has a population of 5.4 million Jews and 1.4 million Palestinians, it can not support them with the 1948 borders. Nor can it remove to those borders as all its defenses are built around its current borders.

Also Palestine does not want to become soveriegn. They want to destroy Israel. Many Palestinians might want their own state, but the PLO and its subordinates can never agree on which state that is. When some of the PLO likes the offers, other Palestinian groups assassinate those people. When those groups like the offers, the other groups assassinate them.

Read my other thread on Israel becomming an Apartheid state for a basic understanding of why creating a Palestinian state is nearly impossible now.

i think israel should at a *minimum* retreat to the '67 borders. the palestinians should make more active efforts at preventing terrorism and respect the fact that israel is there to stay and terror is not acceptable.

-koji K.

The 1967 borders are more possible, but with the Wall going up, very doubtful. And since the settlements are all virtually cities now, it is probably impossible. Israel in affect, is the owner of Gaza and West Bank, the Palestinians will not accept a state of their own as I stated above, when PLO leaders agree on issues, Hamas assassinates them. When leadership in Hamas agrees, other terrorists under the PLO umbrella assassinate them and so on.

The Palestinians are seemingly wanting to become Israeli citizens soon enough, because then they'd dominate Israeli politics and be able to oust Jews.

Since the Jews won't allow that to happen, it is one of 3 things. Either the Palestinians leave the Gaza and West Bank to Egypt and Jordan. They accept where they live right now, and create their own state out of that. Or they are forced into an "Apartheid" state which they virtually are in right now. Israel controls the whole region and the Palestinians are left to just live in the country-side either working for Israelis in the garrison settlements or doing nothing brooding to become terrorists.

As the Wall goes up, Palestinian terrorism will be much more difficult and thus a state of Apartheid will be nearly complete.

Because the Palestinians can never agree on what State to have, it seems very unlikely they will ever get one. Especially since the neighboring Arab states do NOT want a soveriegn Palestine, they just want the Jews gone.

As for other terrorist organizations, like Al Qaeda, they see US support of Israel as a support for anti-Arabism, and thus they want us out of Saudi Arabia and Israel and all that.

Originally posted by FreeMason
The 1967 borders are more possible, but with the Wall going up, very doubtful. And since the settlements are all virtually cities now, it is probably impossible. Israel in affect, is the owner of Gaza and West Bank, the Palestinians will not accept a state of their own as I stated above, when PLO leaders agree on issues, Hamas assassinates them. When leadership in Hamas agrees, other terrorists under the PLO umbrella assassinate them and so on.

The Palestinians are seemingly wanting to become Israeli citizens soon enough, because then they'd dominate Israeli politics and be able to oust Jews.

Since the Jews won't allow that to happen, it is one of 3 things. Either the Palestinians leave the Gaza and West Bank to Egypt and Jordan. They accept where they live right now, and create their own state out of that. Or they are forced into an "Apartheid" state which they virtually are in right now. Israel controls the whole region and the Palestinians are left to just live in the country-side either working for Israelis in the garrison settlements or doing nothing brooding to become terrorists.

As the Wall goes up, Palestinian terrorism will be much more difficult and thus a state of Apartheid will be nearly complete.

Because the Palestinians can never agree on what State to have, it seems very unlikely they will ever get one. Especially since the neighboring Arab states do NOT want a soveriegn Palestine, they just want the Jews gone.

As for other terrorist organizations, like Al Qaeda, they see US support of Israel as a support for anti-Arabism, and thus they want us out of Saudi Arabia and Israel and all that.

i agree. regarding hamas and the plo and asassinations, i find it a sad reminder that sometimes the biggest obstacles to progress come from within than without. thinking also of rabin, who was killed not by arabs he had fought all his life, but an israeli extremist.

-koji K.

Originally posted by FreeMason

Valhall, 1948 borders are too small for Israel, it has a population of 5.4 million Jews and 1.4 million Palestinians, it can not support them with the 1948 borders. Nor can it remove to those borders as all its defenses are built around its current borders.

Also Palestine does not want to become soveriegn. They want to destroy Israel. Many Palestinians might want their own state, but the PLO and its subordinates can never agree on which state that is. When some of the PLO likes the offers, other Palestinian groups assassinate those people. When those groups like the offers, the other groups assassinate them.

Read my other thread on Israel becomming an Apartheid state for a basic understanding of why creating a Palestinian state is nearly impossible now.

No, I'm not going to read your other thread. I suggest you read the 911 series. As most of what you have here is a great percent WRONG.

Now, I am a staunch supporter of Israel, but I don't mind admitting facts at the same time. The reason that Israel has too many people to cram into the 1948 borders is their own fault...not the Palestinians. And not only is it their own fault - but their own policies...intended at exactly what they got - more Israelis than can be crammed into the land they were ceded. And I might point out that even though terrorism is a worst road to take to get your own way - devious policies designed at outnumbering the natives and subsequent expanding... is also unacceptable.

1948 borders - Israel can deal with it however they come up with...but if we go back to the greenline, we've got a chance at working this all out. Otherwise - the situation is a cup of trembling to the nations of the world, just like the good book said it would be.

I'm not sure what you are saying I have said is "wrong".

Everything I've said so far is THE situation. Whether it fits your "ideals" of how it should be.

You can't go back to "greenline" what about the million people in settlements deep in the Gaza and West Bank? What about the Wall being constructed? What about the industries in 1967 borders Israel?

And what do you propose to do with the Arab nations whom in 1948 went to war to prevent the creation of both Israel and Palestine? And who currently will not stand for either nation to exist.

The reality is that the 1948 borders is out of the question, regardless of "right and wrong". In fact the 1967 borders is out of the question as well, the Israelis can not leave the settlements because the people there will not leave, last thing you need is to create a series of disjointed city-states in the midst of a hostile nation that is garrisoned and armed to the teeth. That would only fan the fires.

no no no...it fits YOUR idea...but it is not reflective of the historical record. If you want to review the historical record, see the 911 series, or re-do the damned research yourself. I don't care.

My comments are not concerning "my idea". My idea six months ago was "support Israel no matter what they say". My idea now is "support Israel" and speak the truth about how the situation has gotten to where it is. It has gotten to where it is through dirty machinations on the backside (primarily by France and England - with a little Russian mixed in) and through intentional policies for expansion past the "homeland" given the Israelis.

I believe the homeland ceding was warranted and I stand behind the Nation of Israel. I do not believe the ever-burgeoning borders and increased colonization by the Israelis has done anything but cause oppression and resentment in the Arab-Palestinian populace.

I wish I didn't have to feel that way...but that's what the historical record PROVES.

Now, you can "feel" however you want. And you can "interpret" however you want. But your feelings and interpretations are not going to change the recorded fact one iota....hence...the wrongness of your statements, and the lack of a requirement for me to review more of them on this subject.

Except my point is that you can not receed the borders, there is no point in discussing what can not be done, no more than you could "create" a Palestinian state. The Palestinians refuse to let a state be created because they themselves can not agree upon it, and the last time a state was attempted to be created the Arabs invaded the entire region.

I'm not talking about what is historical, historically the United States was 13 colonies.

I'm talking about today, today the USA can no more give back the "land" to the Native Americans than Israel can give up its current territories.

Returning to 1948 borders would only reward terrorism. It would send the message that the terrorists were right all along, that terrorism is a viable strategy. Palestinian refugees should be taken back by the nations that have perpetuated this problem - the Arab nations.

Israel is not an apartheid state. The surrounding Arab nations, Egypt, Syria, and especially Jordan, are apartheid states as they intentionally keep people who should rightfully be citizens of their countries out of their borders, deny them the right to vote for their respective Arab governments, and deny them their citizenship.

Palestinians have no claim to land in Israel any more than Israelis have claim to land in the countries of the Middle East and North Africa from which they were forced to leave with the rise of Arab nationalism.

We're not talking about the 13 colonies or the Native Americans. IF we had spent the past 60 years fighting with the Indians (which we didn't because we managed to kill enough of them off and impoverish the remnant to the degree they just huddled up and played nice) AND the Indians had had about 13 million brothers ready to split the globe in half because of our foul treatment of them...

THEN your argument would apply. But because we got away with our misdealings with the Native Americans...that is not the case. Israel is currently not able to say that. The Palestinians apparently don't intend on shutting up, playing nice....and then all their cousins don't appear to want to either.

The foundational problem is that Israel has consistently exceeded its borders. The U.N. needs to do what it should have done almost 60 years ago...it's so called "job" and say - No, you're occupying a neighboring nation-state. If the original land isn't big enough...I imagine some of them will leave...that would be the logical thing to do. OR, they could be nice neighbors and live under Palestinian rule. They do have options.

That's what needs to happen.

Originally posted by FreeMason

The Palestinians are seemingly wanting to become Israeli citizens soon enough, because then they'd dominate Israeli politics and be able to oust Jews.

Since the Jews won't allow that to happen, it is one of 3 things.

That's exactly what Arab Muslims did to the Assyrian Christians that were the native people of Iraq (Assyria) in the 630s AD til pretty much today. Its exactly the same they want to do to the Israelis.

[edit on 29-6-2004 by Muaddib]

Valhall, 1948 borders are too small for Israel, it has a population of 5.4 million Jews and 1.4 million Palestinians, it can not support them with the 1948 borders. Nor can it remove to those borders as all its defenses are built around its current borders.

Also Palestine does not want to become soveriegn. They want to destroy Israel. Many Palestinians might want their own state, but the PLO and its subordinates can never agree on which state that is. When some of the PLO likes the offers, other Palestinian groups assassinate those people. When those groups like the offers, the other groups assassinate them.

Excellent observations....I would agree with Val's suggestions, but simply change the year to the latter borders....

However, as was pointed out, the main problem with a Palestinian state isn't Isreal...it's the Palestinians.... The only Palestinian state they want is land that is all of Isreal, with Jerusalem as it's capital, and guess what? That isn't going to happen.

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by FreeMason

The Palestinians are seemingly wanting to become Israeli citizens soon enough, because then they'd dominate Israeli politics and be able to oust Jews.

Since the Jews won't allow that to happen, it is one of 3 things.

That's exactly what Arab Muslims did to the Assyrian Christians that were the native peopel of Iraq (Assyria) in the 630s AD til pretty much today. Its exactly the same they want to do to the Israelis.

Again, this is not what the historical record shows. But the historical record does show the opposite, that there was a concerted effort to increase, through emigration and colonization, the Jewish presence in the Arab-Palestinian lands in order to out-number the Arab population. You are speaking from a pre-conceived notion, not from fact. Read the historical record. Then come back and discuss this.

Speculation on what the ultimate "Muslim" idea of the world is does not fit into this discussion...that is an entirely different discussion. THIS discussion is about the Israeli-occupied lands of the Arab-Palestinians and how it has led tot he situation we currently have. Are the Palestinians innocent? Nope. Do I like their tactics or maybe even their "ultimate religious goal"...not a damned bit. But stick with the facts on the P-I situation.

Originally posted by Muaddib
That's exactly what Arab Muslims did to the Assyrian Christians that were the native peopel of Iraq (Assyria) in the 630s AD til pretty much today. Its exactly the same they want to do to the Israelis.

Exactly. Here they'll use the vote instead of the sword, at least until they're in power, at which time it'll be a totally different story.

Originally posted by Valhall
But because we got away with our misdealings with the Native Americans...that is not the case. Israel is currently not able to say that.

Israel is willing to stick around for a while, whatever the statute of limitations for the crime that remains unnamed is.

And the cases of the Native Americans and the Palestinians cannot be compared. Native Americans didn't squat on someone else's land or attempt a "war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades."

But Valhall, Israel is not occupying any neighboring states as of right now, the only time it did was when it occupied the Sinai Peninsula.

Palestine (West Bank and Gaza Strip) was never created as a state, and is not recognized as a state, it is literally free land for whoever wants to take it over, and currently Israel is firmly entrenched in that region.

Originally posted by Gazrok

However, as was pointed out, the main problem with a Palestinian state isn't Isreal...it's the Palestinians.... The only Palestinian state they want is land that is all of Isreal, with Jerusalem as it's capital, and guess what? That isn't going to happen.

Now THIS, I agree with. See, this is what the historical record backs as a prediction of the outcome if the U.N. were to push back the border to 1948. And I stick with 1948 because that goes back to the declaration which had backing...but nothing else does. So I stick with 48, not 67 (for now - we can discuss that later maybe).

BUT, what I fear (and this is off in speculation now - but the historical record has backing for this speculation) is that when the U.N. pushed Israel back to the greenlines, the Palestinians would STILL not comply and the terrorism would go on.

Okay, THEN - the whole world should rain down on them like nobody's business. BUT, we have to get to that situation first. We can't sit here and project that that would be the case. We have to attempt reconciliation back to 1948.

I don't care how the Palestinians feel about 1948...and I mean I don't care one bit actually. They had 400 years to declare themselves a nation and didn't do it. It wasn't until after Israel was granted their homeland that all of a sudden being a sovereign nation was their reason for living - get outta town. BUT, we have to get back to that point...and then see what happens.