Auschwitz Gas Chambers a Myth?

The very fact we are even discussing this again and the same old "Gate Keepers" pop up to prop up the official story speaks volumes for its authenticity.

Revising downwards the number killed in various camps points to systemic errors in the initial calculations but the upholding of the 6 million in total and the usage of the term Holocaust ( Burnt offering ) has motive.

That motive may still me unclear to many in here reading these ramblings but if you are prepared to dig deep it jumps out at you ...eventually.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I know that you must be on your p's and q's about this subject Proto
And I am impressed that you went to the trouble of findings his recants

But did it not ever hit you that he was MADE TO recant on his original claims

Let's imagine for a second that Israel would actually be so brazen to violate humans rights laws by holding a nuclear whistleblower concerning Israel's illegal nuclear program like Mordechai Vanunu who was ambushed and tricked into an Israeli prison with no due process and sentenced to 18 years and with 11 of those years in solitary confinement,

LET ME REPEAT THAT 11 OF THE 18 YEARS WAS IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT
Soooooo Hmmmmmmm let's IMAGINE that such a hostile state was real and not fantasy.

Well guess what
The fantasy is real and the state responsible

The true Jews who have a deciding vote and are only playing this Israel game long enough to fulfill their destiny.

This not conspiracy folks
This is real life
The Pope was part of the Hitler youth
For crying out loud
What do think was the religion of the third reich
Catholocism

Originally posted by mazzroth
The very fact we are even discussing this again and the same old "Gate Keepers" pop up to prop up the official story speaks volumes for its authenticity.

Revising downwards the number killed in various camps points to systemic errors in the initial calculations but the upholding of the 6 million in total and the usage of the term Holocaust ( Burnt offering ) has motive.

That motive may still me unclear to many in here reading these ramblings but if you are prepared to dig deep it jumps out at you ...eventually.

edit on 30-10-2010 by mazzroth because: (no reason given)

Digging deep is what unrooting conspiracies is all about, as well as remaining emotionally detached.

I have seen more attempts at emotional manipulation, emotional domination, and psycholigical tactics used in this thread that I care to count or mention.

I find it highly strange where we live in a planet where 2/3rds of the population feels the Abrahamic concept of God is relevant and real, yet have this cavalier attitude about it that the rituals, practices and beliefs don't actually play any significant part in it, or effect the world, or world events, besides one religion trying to supercede the other, or eliminate the other.

The Judean religion itself is full of blood sacrifice, mystic rituals, numerology and incantations, yet it really is made to appear that none of those things are practiced or have any bearing despite the popularity of the Kabalah, otherwise known as Jewish Mysticism.

One of the big problems I have with the Holocaust, in accepting it fully the way it is being presented is the word.

I think words are real important, so important that when I dared to tell a State's attorney the legal definition of a driver (a Teamster and commercial livery person, with that team of horses being the horse power our car engines are rated in) he didn't deny it when pressed. When I told him what License meant (Permission to break the law, and it's the Driver's License holder giving the State permission to break the law, in violating the constitution by inhibiting and regulating our passage from point a to b) he didn't deny it when pressed either. When I told him that the comercial enterprise we are all involved in is transporting ourselves because we are all registered with the U.S. Department of Commerce through the Census making us part of the commerce system he didn't deny that when pressed either. When I told him the Driver's License was a contract with the State and that's why it had to be signed by the driver he didn't deny that either. Nor did he deny it was all done through trickery and non-disclosure.

When I told him that the U.S. Constitution is actually a living will dedicated to the Posterity of the founding fathers confering certain gifts of privelege on me and as an officer of the court I could direct him as my appointed trustee to do that even though his original aim was to collect a fine from me, he didn't deny he could act in that capacity at my direction.

When he removed the violation from the record on my orders then and even arranged to compensate me the same amount they were trying to fine me, for the inconvenience they caused me in having to point out the deception and fraud they were trying to perpetrate on me, he had the County cut me a check.

All of this because words have very real meanings, and while many people imagine those meanings are figurative when used in a legal setting their oldest legal definition takes literal precedence and preference.

So since Holocaust denial is against the law in 8 different countries, then absolutely does the legal definition of Holocaust come into play.

A burnt offering.

So I have to ask myself despite the contention of some that some things are so universally accepted that we must accept that propenderance of evidence and not question it, why is it so darn important that I agree precisely that a burnt religious offering took place involving a precise number of people?

That's as a in your face conspiracy as the people trying to deny there is one.

I know I am not alone in thinking this way, and as the German people themselves found out under the Nazi's there is a real danger and price to be paid, in siding with the majority, simply because they are the majority, and simply demand that you must do so.

Literally translated Holocaust Denier would be one who denies a religious ritual took place through these events.

So why is it so important I agree a religious ritual took place?

Amazingly these critics accuse those who question these things to be dismissing the obvious while they themselves are dismissing the most obvious and not talked about aspect of it all. The very word purposefully selected to define the event.

Holocaust, burnt offering.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I know I am not alone in thinking this way,

Why am I hearing crickets right now?

Literally translated Holocaust Denier would be one who denies a religious ritual took place through these events.

Really?

en.wikipedia.org...

The key claims of Holocaust deniers are:[2][3]

* The Nazis had no official policy or intention of exterminating Jews.
* Nazis did not use gas chambers to mass murder Jews.
* The figure of 5 to 6 million Jewish deaths is a gross exaggeration, and the actual number is an order of magnitude lower.

Other claims include the following:

* Stories of the Holocaust were a myth initially created by the Allies of World War II to demonize Germans.[3] Jews spread this myth as part of a grander plot intended to enable the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and now to garner continuing support for the state of Israel.[13]
* Documentary evidence of the Holocaust, from photographs to the Diary of Anne Frank, is fabricated.[3]
* Survivor testimonies are filled with errors and inconsistencies, and are thus unreliable.[3]
* Interrogators obtained Nazi prisoners' confessions of war crimes through the use of torture.[3]
* The Nazi treatment of Jews was no different from what the Allies did to their enemies in World War II.[14]

Holocaust denial is widely viewed as failing to adhere to rules for the treatment of evidence, principles that mainstream historians (as well as scholars in other fields) regard as basic to rational inquiry.[15]

The Holocaust was well-documented by the extremely bureaucratic German Nazi government itself.[16][17] It was further witnessed by the Allied forces who entered Germany and its associated Axis states towards the end of World War II.[18][19][20]

Well, I suppose among the "deniers" your religious "burnt offering" theory will fit in just fine.

How you define a "Holocaust Denier" depends entirely on your perspective I suppose.

Are you serious?

How you define a "Holocaust Denier" depends entirely on your perspective I suppose.

Actually, when it comes to definitions, instead of assuming people are arbitrarily assigning meanings to things to fit their own perspective, your best bet is to consult a dictionary.

"holocaust
mid-13c., "sacrifice by fire, burnt offering," from Gk. holokauston, neut. of holokaustos "burned whole," from holos "whole" (see safe (adj.)) + kaustos, verbal adj. of kaiein "to burn." Originally a Bible word for "burnt offerings," given wider sense of "massacre, destruction of a large number of persons" from 1833. The Holocaust "Nazi genocide of European Jews in World War II," first recorded 1957, earlier known in Heb. as Shoah "catastrophe." The word itself was used in English in reference to Hitler's Jewish policies from 1942, but not as a proper name for them. "

So literally, as Proto said, a holocaust denier is someone who denies a burnt offering took place.

Originally posted by bulgogi
Are you serious?

I asked you to answer this for me if you kindly would because I am constantly puzzled when people come to a conspiracy website and get bent out of shape when someone cries OMG...

CONSPIRACY

I don't come to ATS to make fun of people.
Simply because I have been known to change mindsets more than once before and I could be them one day

How unbelievable it truly is to have a conspiracy website, one with the most intelligent and diligent membership excruciatingly manning the flagship of such sites that are dedicated to critical thinking and denying ignorance....

BUT for some reason, as of yet, a forthright explanation that is convincing to all has been rendered so as to put to rest this idea and officially declare why it is that one certain topic seems to be taboo here.
AT ATS.
I know this presents quite an enigmatic conundrum and all.
Well mainly because this is Above Top Secret and we have all pledge to deny ignorance
We did not pledge to can it and throw it away because we disagree.
And that is what several people who should know better are doing and
Let me tell you
Nothing sets off my BS meter that much more.

The information that is presented as the official explanation of "the" holocaust is biased and rife with contradictions
Those that argue my information on a routine basis expressing pure rage against my point regarding the disinformation and the lies that I and several other (mad props Proto) have literally given our lives to stop this madness only confirm what we all know.
Yes, those that adamantly argue can only stoop to appeals to emotion, circular reasoning, appeals to a dubious authority, or the best of them all, the argument ad hominem, which is literally them belittling and humiliating and other personally out their apparent lack of a cohesive and succinct argument.

I present this challenge once again

Quote me being intolerant
And quote me in context
I am able to argue with reason and not emotion
unfortunately not all that should know better are yet able

Originally posted by Kailassa

Originally posted by gravitational
reply to post by Kailassa

 

Did you notice that the word sauna was written with quotation marks, meaning it wasn't really a sauna building? It doesn't take a genuine to realize that.

Another common use of quotation marks is to indicate or call attention to ironic or apologetic words:

From your question I gather you didn't bother reading what that facility was used for. Some posters here insist that the gas chambers were nothing but a disinfection chambers. The real disinfection facility has a completely different structure, and surprise- no ovens for body cremation.
This is what I'm getting at.
Simple, isn't it?

Thank you both for your clarification and for the grammar lesson.

Now a little more clarification please. And any further grammar lessons would be most appreciated, too.

Is this the "“Sauna Building” (die zentrale Sauna ),you know, the real De-lousing facility" to which you are referring?

I'm puzzled, because, according to the official Auschwitz Birkenau site:
In this building, which went into use in late 1943, newly arrived prisoners, mainly Jews, were registered and subjected to disinfection before being exploited as slave laborers.

As lice were a problem in the camps, this sounds like delousing was carried out there.
What do you think this huge room with big glass windows down both sides was used for if not a sauna?
If people were being slowly gassed to death with prussic acid in there, don't you think they'd have broken those windows to get fresh air?

Or is there somewhere else in that building where people were gassed? If so, I'm sure there will be pictures of it you can show me.

Dude, you are having some real comprehension issues here.
The “Sauna” building is not a gas chamber in which people were gassed in.
So here is the link again, hoping this time you will find 2 minutes of your time to actually read it.

www.scrapbookpages.com...

en.auschwitz.org.pl...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/72a3d0d59ee0.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by gravitational

Originally posted by Kailassa

Originally posted by gravitational
reply to post by Kailassa

 

Did you notice that the word sauna was written with quotation marks, meaning it wasn't really a sauna building? It doesn't take a genuine to realize that.

Another common use of quotation marks is to indicate or call attention to ironic or apologetic words:

From your question I gather you didn't bother reading what that facility was used for. Some posters here insist that the gas chambers were nothing but a disinfection chambers. The real disinfection facility has a completely different structure, and surprise- no ovens for body cremation.
This is what I'm getting at.
Simple, isn't it?

Thank you both for your clarification and for the grammar lesson.

Now a little more clarification please. And any further grammar lessons would be most appreciated, too.

Is this the "“Sauna Building” (die zentrale Sauna ),you know, the real De-lousing facility" to which you are referring?

I'm puzzled, because, according to the official Auschwitz Birkenau site:
In this building, which went into use in late 1943, newly arrived prisoners, mainly Jews, were registered and subjected to disinfection before being exploited as slave laborers.

As lice were a problem in the camps, this sounds like delousing was carried out there.
What do you think this huge room with big glass windows down both sides was used for if not a sauna?
If people were being slowly gassed to death with prussic acid in there, don't you think they'd have broken those windows to get fresh air?

Or is there somewhere else in that building where people were gassed? If so, I'm sure there will be pictures of it you can show me.

Dude, you are having some real comprehension issues here.
The “Sauna” building is not a gas chamber in which people were gassed in.
So here is the link again, hoping this time you will find 2 minutes of your time to actually read it.

www.scrapbookpages.com...

en.auschwitz.org.pl...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/72a3d0d59ee0.jpg[/atsimg]

Honey, you're not being very helpful about this. The first link you give shows the picture you present, along with the caption,
The two photos below show the steam chambers used for delousing the clothing. Note that the first photo shows an exit door on the other side of the wall.

There are several more photos of these steam chambers for delousing clothes on the sites you referred me too. What makes these steam chambers so fascinating to you?

This one shows the bars still inside, as one would expect them to have. Clothes would have been placed on hangars which were hung on these bars.

Before the rotating clothes dryers we have these days one could get a clothes drying cabinet which worked on a similar principle to this, but with hot air being funnelled in instead of steam. These also could kill lice in clothing, but steam was faster and more efficient.



I'm, wondering, am I a holocaust denier for pointing out to a poster the captions on a page he gives me as evidence?

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade
It is too hard to believe that fellow human beings could be so completely cruel, so it must have been faked, history needs to be revised.
Why not?
Some people actually believe holograms flew into the twin towers on 9/11.
Some people want to believe that gas chambers were a myth, that the ghetto life many Jews were forced to endure until the only mercy they could pray for was to be executed quickly never happened. Or if it did, it was only a few hundred, not millions... No way dude!
Some people believed that a comet would take them to their heaven.
Some people.

Straw man argument ... No-one here is arguing the ghettos didn't happen.
Ad hominem argument, no-one here has ever espoused the belief that a comet will take them to heaven.

Do you have anything to say which is on topic?

reply to post by Kailassa


Excuse me for being blunt here, but are you playing dumb or something, because I don't see what eles it can be.
Once again, and for the last time.
Some posters here insist that the crematoriums in Auschwitz were not used to gas people, but for delousing clothes. I might add that, Strangely they all came with ovens attached to them to cremate bodies. The “sauna building” on the other hand is where the real delousing of clothes took place, by means of steam, with machinery built by the same' Topf und Shones' company that built the crematoriums.

Can it be any clearer than that?

reply to post by Josephus23

Those that argue my information on a routine basis expressing pure rage against my point regarding the disinformation and the lies that I and several other (mad props Proto) have literally given our lives to stop this madness only confirm what we all know.
Yes, those that adamantly argue can only stoop to appeals to emotion, circular reasoning, appeals to a dubious authority, or the best of them all, the argument ad hominem, which is literally them belittling and humiliating and other personally out their apparent lack of a cohesive and succinct argument.

So you take people presenting facts that may prove you are wrong as a personal attack?

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

The Judean religion itself is full of blood sacrifice,

Burnt offering

What are you saying?

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

The Judean religion itself is full of blood sacrifice,

Burnt offering

What are you saying?

He saying : Jews are masochists that love to burn themselves, and indeed they did so by conspiring with Hitler their friend to burn the magical Kabbalistic number of 6 times 10 to appease their god, so they can return to Israel without needing to wait for the coming of the Messiah. Yup.

Originally posted by gravitational
reply to post by Kailassa

 

Excuse me for being blunt here, but are you playing dumb or something, because I don't see what eles it can be.
Once again, and for the last time.
Some posters here insist that the crematoriums in Auschwitz were not used to gas people, but for delousing clothes. I might add that, Strangely they all came with ovens attached to them to cremate bodies. The “sauna building” on the other hand is where the real delousing of clothes took place, by means of steam, with machinery built by the same' Topf und Shones' company that built the crematoriums.

Can it be any clearer than that?

Congratulations!
You have finally managed to make a clear statement instead of expecting posters to read your mind.
So you agree the Sauna Building was not used as a place of execution?
I'm glad we're getting somewhere at last.

Are you now saying no Zyclon B was used in in any of the Auschwitz complex of camps for delousing clothing because of the Sauna Building being erected at one of these camps?

Or are you only discussing Auschwitz II, otherwise known as Birkenau, the camp at which the Sauna Building stands?


If you are not saying that, how can you be sure other buildings in Auschwitz were not used for delousing clothing with cyanide gas?

Originally posted by Kailassa

Originally posted by gravitational
reply to post by Kailassa

 

Excuse me for being blunt here, but are you playing dumb or something, because I don't see what eles it can be.
Once again, and for the last time.
Some posters here insist that the crematoriums in Auschwitz were not used to gas people, but for delousing clothes. I might add that, Strangely they all came with ovens attached to them to cremate bodies. The “sauna building” on the other hand is where the real delousing of clothes took place, by means of steam, with machinery built by the same' Topf und Shones' company that built the crematoriums.

Can it be any clearer than that?

Congratulations!

You have finally managed to make a clear statement instead of expecting posters to read your mind.
So you agree the Sauna Building was not used as a place of execution?
I'm glad we're getting somewhere at last.

Sigh....agree?! I never said the "sauna building" was used for execution.

Are you now saying no Zyclon B was used in in any of the Auschwitz complex of camps for delousing clothing because of the Sauna Building being erected at one of these camps?

Ziklon-B was used to exterminate people in the gas chambers, not lice.
Unless of course, all the Ziklon-B canisters were used for Curling during winter time.

If you are not saying that, how can you be sure other buildings in Auschwitz were not used for delousing clothing with cyanide gas?

Go to the first page of this thread and read on. You will find all the proof you need that the gas chambers were used to gas people.
If that is not satisfactory enough for you, you are more than welcome to search through allied forces archives, and interview the remaining surviors.

Originally posted by gravitational

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

The Judean religion itself is full of blood sacrifice,

Burnt offering

What are you saying?

He saying : Jews are masochists that love to burn themselves, and indeed they did so by conspiring with Hitler their friend to burn the magical Kabbalistic number of 6 times 10 to appease their god, so they can return to Israel without needing to wait for the coming of the Messiah. Yup.

That's what I thought.

Originally posted by gravitational
reply to post by Kailassa

 

Are you now saying no Zyklon B was used in in any of the Auschwitz complex of camps for delousing clothing because of the Sauna Building being erected at one of these camps?

Ziklon-B was used to exterminate people in the gas chambers, not lice.
Unless of course, all the Ziklon-B canisters were used for Curling during winter time.

I checked out Jewish Virtual Library, as that was a site you had chosen to use.
According to them, on the page: Answers to the 66 Questions of Holocaust Deniers - "In fact, probably over 90% of the Zyklon used at Auschwitz was used for delousing purposes."

If you are not saying that, how can you be sure other buildings in Auschwitz were not used for delousing clothing with cyanide gas?

Go to the first page of this thread and read on. You will find all the proof you need that the gas chambers were used to gas people.

I read it. There is no such proof there.

If that is not satisfactory enough for you, you are more than welcome to search through allied forces archives, and interview the remaining surviors.

How reliable are the reports of survivors?
Many reported that soap and lampshades were being made from the fat and skin of Jews. That has been disproven.
The Allied Forces archives show that many millions of people were exterminated at Auschwitz, but it's now believed approximately 1.1 million people died there.

According to Elizabeth Mann, an Auschwitz survivor who spoke to visitors at the Museum of Tolerance in the Simon Wiesenthal Center when I visited Los Angeles, the female prisoners at Birkenau were given a shower periodically in the Sauna, but they never knew whether gas or water would come out. According to Ms. Mann, prisoners were sometimes gassed in the shower room of the Sauna.

Should I take Elizabeth Mann's word for it that you are wrong and the Sauna Building was used for homicidal gassings after all?

As for other holocaust survivors, they have enought troubles of their own without me interviewing them.
Take Gizela Burg for example . . .

When Gizela Burg arrived in Israel after surviving four Nazi concentration camps in World War II, she thought her problems were behind her. But now, at age 83, she can no longer afford to pay her growing medical bills. Burg is among about 90,000 Holocaust survivors - a third of the total in Israel - who live in poverty, according to official figures. For the childless widow, her inability to fix her TV or afford a taxi meant she was spending Israel's annual Holocaust remembrance day on Tuesday alone and in silence.

The Never-ending Scandal

JERUSALEM - An Israeli government offer of a new $20 monthly stipend for Holocaust survivors provoked outrage Tuesday, with survivors charging the meager allowance will do nothing to make up for years of neglect of the 240,000 Israelis who lived through Nazi horrors.

Six decades after the war ended, the remaining survivors are elderly, and many have been unable to provide for themselves in their final years, suffering chronic shortages of money for medical and psychological treatment and in some cases even food.

Critics maintain that more of the nearly $80 billion in reparations Israel has received in compensation from Germany should have gone to the survivors. A large percentage of the money, which was paid beginning in the 1950s as Israelis struggled to build their fledgling state, went to the military and for infrastructure.

Let's hope Gizela was lucky enough to escape the illegal medical experimentation carried out on the elderly in Israel.

A leading Israeli doctor and medical ethicist has called for the prosecution of doctors responsible for thousands of unauthorised and often illegal experiments on small children and geriatric and psychiatric patients in Israeli hospitals.

reply to post by Kailassa


Kailassa
even though we seem to be on opposite sides of this discussion to a degree
I wanted to give you a congratulation for using logic.
Congratulating someone with whom you might disagree is a great healer
And this thread is in need of healing

I am not agreeing with you or disagreeing as I see Proto as probably the most learned man here at ATS

BUT.....

I am so glad to see someone who understands logical fallacies and is not afraid to call people out on it.
In college, I had one English class on critical thinking skills and doublespeak, but yet we spent the entire class analyzing metaphor and little was actually dedicated to critical thinking.

We spent one chapter on doublespeak and logical fallacies.
We took a pre-test to determine who actually knew what these concepts were and I was the only student who could answer ever question correctly
That is not saying that I am especially intelligent, but if you surround yourself with idiots and have a modicum of learned ability then one would appear as the uber man.

The problem is that these things are NOT taught in school any longer but they are THE basis used to form a premise for any argument.
I call people out for using them ALL THE TIME but it generally falls on deaf ears because no one has one lick of knowledge when it comes to the process of reasoning correctly.
Which is paramount when forming a testable premise.

Which in some way is THE point to a collective effort like ATS

I think that new members should have to take a competency test regarding the scientific method, the research process, and logical fallacies.

When I first joined this site I was blown away at the amount of technical intelligent banter, but ever since Pres. Obama declared "war on internet conspiracy chat rooms" ATS has never been the same.

As always, your posts are well thought and add much to the discussion.

Keep up the good fight my friend because we have been put on notice that we do have an enemy and this enemy has infiltrated ATS.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

The Judean religion itself is full of blood sacrifice,

Burnt offering

What are you saying?

That the move has been declared and acknowledged that the fact that a burnt offering is declared, is recognized.

I really don't have any more to add on that, at this time.

Those engaged in trying to influence me are wasting their time.

A burnt offering has been officially declared, and now acknowleged.

When are you going to get your holy books are really rules and procedures and goals for the game?

I took the time to remind everyone just 6 months ago. You post in the thread almost every day.

The other team is allowed to confuse you as part of the game, read your book!

Everything in them is valid in the blood sport game that they outline and are all valid and acceptable moves.

Its a blood sport game because that's the only thing that has any real value, is you, your participation and willingness to play the game.

The only thing therefore of any value is the blood that ends a team participant's participation in the game.

Have you not stopped to ask why everyone has been killing each other for the entire duration of the time frame and perspective you have been given to share a reality where everyone is intent on having their team dictate everything based on achieving it through blood?

Blood can be either a sacrifice or a conquest, this move was presented as a sacrifice, sacrifice gains extra points and consideration if accepted and scored, there are really only 600,000 Jews as declared in their rule book.

How did you guys fall for this 6,000,000 story?

You are all way behind now, while they have made sure you have been mulling that over, and intimidated by it, and not even trying to do anything to make a move, while they wait for the acknowledgement and score.

I don't see the Christians winning the game at this stage StormDancer, you should check your rulebook, really all of you so I don't have to answer all these questions that the answers are in black and white.

Part of the game is trying to get you to not use your rule book by the way!

The other team tries to convince you to play the game by their rules, and well the more of you who fall for that manipulation the less likely your team will win.

Why do you even listen to anyone not on your team?

Anyone who wants to try to pretend there book does not say what it says, and official dictionaries do not define what's in them, be prepared to debunk your own religion and language and state clearly why you are having trouble playing by the rules.

Or please declare yourself out of the game and just say, I don't want to play this blood sport game anymore.


The fact that they have you all so freaked out about this and walking on pins and needles and listening to everything they present you and many of you are no longer following your rules for your team...that really is going to end up scoring big with the judges, just saying.