Obamacare goes into effect, side effects already appearing

What surprises me, as a Canadian, is that your government went to Europe, and came to Canada, to check out how effective health care works. For the most part it works very well. Other than wait times. Apparently some of the European countries health care works even better than ours. I don't remember which ones though.

Then your government went and ignored everything that worked, calling it all "socialist", and made up their own version of healthcare, very poorly.

Most of our provinces have free healthcare, prescriptions cost extra, there are separate plans for prescriptions, eye care, dental care, private rooms, etc. A couple of provinces charge premiums of about $60 per month per person. There are family rates, kids are covered til 18, then they are given their own plan, being adults now.

I have googled our taxes comparatively, and the rates seem similar, from what I can tell, and the doctor's wages, once all the overhead is paid, depending on the specialization, they make about the same. Some of ours come out better, some of yours come out better.

I haven't yet found what makes us "socialist", except that our health care is mostly covered in our taxes, as is our education grades kindergarten to grade 12, and much of our taxes go to infrastructure. Much of USA taxes goes to a huge military, stationed in many countries all around the world.

Sad that your government rejected all the ways that work in other countries, because of worrying so much about "socialism". Now your premiums seem like they're going to be costing you a fortune. If we decide to get a provincial plan, on top of our free healthcare, like blue cross insurance, to be covered for prescriptions, dental, eye care, and Everything, the most expensive I've seen was about $200 per person per month. There are also family rates.

We have a few very rich, well off people in our country too. And tax breaks on corporations. We pay for our own college/university education too. Expensively. Yet we're labeled by many as "socialist", and are told it's a bad thing

Our country is working surprisingly well right now. Your government is messing up your whole country, seemingly on purpose.

And I don't really like our prime minister Harper very much, although he is very smart, and majored in Economics, but even with his dictator like ways, he's starting to look better and better. That's scary in itself.

reply to post by neo96


No one else can screw with it? Do you forget what happened to hundreds of thousands of peoples 401K's? That money that people had invested for up to a lifetime for some, vanished overnight.

Now with the logic of some on this thread they want to give our social security in the name of healthcare to the very same people who caused the demise of all of those 401K's? You people where obviously not one of the many who went to bed and then woke up to have all of their retirement savings gone. If that would have happened to you guys you would be singing a different tune.

I witnessed this first hand, myself and my fathers,....gone overnight. He was hit much harder then myself. He lost $185,000 dollars I lost $22,000, he will never make that up again. He saved for 20 years. Now you want to take our social security money and hand it over to the same people who robbed us and hundreds of thousands more of our 401K.....Absoultley nuts. You people have no idea what you even propose you just take the rights word for it that it is the best thing to do.

Just out of curiosity, what are you folks paying for obama care?

Universal healthcare In canada as middle class my wife and I pay around 1100 per year total, not bad for all expenses paid via medical, hospital visits, no stress or worries if I break my leg, I know that I will have my leg back.

What is wrong with looking after your fellow man? Do you think a homeless man doesnt deserve to be taken care of if hes beaten up by thugs for his begged change, or if he falls and hurts himself?

Has America always been so heartless or is this a recent development from the bad economy?

How can a soceity of immigrants start saying immigrants are bad?

If your skillless great grandparents came over from europe and couldnt speak english would you deny them healthcare and kick them off your land because they are not "True Americans"?

reply to post by againuntodust


I agree we should pay doctors less, but then educational institutions need to lower the cost to attend medical school so that these professionals are not in debt in the hundreds of thousands of dollars as soon as they graduate.

reply to post by frimilden


I am not right wing. I am not left wing. I am firmly middle of the road, recognizing the pros and cons of each side of the coin. I don't want to lose all of my money to Big Bank and Wall Street. Not by a long shot and to suggest that that is what I and other posters want is ludicrous. That said, how on earth is that any different than continuing to pay money into a system that will not, GUARANTEED, return that money to me when I need it? It is the better version because then at least there is a chance that I will make wise decisions and invest well to suit my own needs and might possibly make money off of it. I am not taking all of my money out of banks because I am afraid they are going to go under. I doubt you keep your cash in your mattress either. What other choice do we, as Americans, have at this time? We don't. The OP is offering solutions that might work, rather than sticking with the status quo that definitely won't work.

I am so very sorry that you and your family lost all of the money you have lost, and it is incredibly unjust. I don't think anyone here would deign to say different. Now, though, you are operating from a place of fear and anger, and will STILL lose everything when you go to draw on your SS Retirement that won't be there. It WILL NOT be there. Rather than just allowing that to be the case, why not try something else? What are options that you might have to fix the situation?

I think what we really needed was a system of national health insurance like just about every other country in the world has. We should have just reformed and expanded Medicare and Medicaid and made them into national health insurance available to all.

This did not happen because of the money and power of the insurance company lobbyists in Washington, who derailed even the watered down public option and made it mandatory for everyone to buy private health insurance. I have to admit that I was very disappointed in Obama when he went along with this--it was one of the things that really turned me off on him.

I saw how Democrats like Max Baucus were bought and paid for, along with Ben Nelson, Joe Lieberman and the rest. I knew that all along, but this time it was very blatant.

Of course, the Republicans are no good either and care nothing about the common people. They are openly on the side of the rich and big business and don't even bother to hide it. For two years, I have watched them vote 100% "No" on every issue I care about, so in November I've decided to vote 100% "No" against them. I wasn't going to vote at all, but I changed my mind. I am eager to vote against Sharron Angle, for example, who is about the biggest imbecile I have ever seen in American politics.

Even so, I wish we had a real party that represented ordinary people in America instead of the corporations. I am registered Green myself because I think the two major parties are lousy and corrupt.

reply to post by Ceriddwen


All of the Social Security insolvency claims are simply false, it is nothing more than a scare tactic to make people complacent in letting them move the money to the same Corps. and wall street bums that robbed us the first time.

The Social Security Administration predicts the program will be able to fully pay all promised benefits through 2042, when most Baby Boomers will be dead—even using pessimistic assumptions about future economic growth. Annual productivity growth is forecast by SSA at only 1.6 percent through 2078; in the years 1913–1990 (including the Great Depression), it grew by about 2.3 percent, a rate that would more than wipe out any future shortfall (2004 Social Security Trustees' Report; The World Economy, OECD, 2001).

Even if the economy grows as slowly as these pessimistic predictions suggest, Social Security will still be able to pay higher inflation-adjusted benefits after 2042 than at present, since future retirees are scheduled to receive much higher benefits than those of current recipients. And retaining full promised benefits—again, under pessimistic assumptions—would require a payroll-tax increase, decades from now, of less than 2 percentage points—a smaller increase than similar ones enacted in the 1950s, '60s and '80s ("Basic Facts on Social Security," Center for Economic and Policy Research, 11/04).

As far as healthcare goes, I will hold judgment on it until 2014 when everything is in full effect. I do not claim to have all the answers I just sure as hell know that taking my and others social security that we all pay into and handing it over to them is sure as heck no answer and a disaster in the making if it happened.

reply to post by Gradius Maximus


I am fortunate that my company provides pretty good coverage through BCBS, and I pay a pretty penny for it. I hope that benefit doesn't change. The problem is not as simple as you describe it, as most folks who don't live here for any length of time describe it. No one wants to see indigent or ill people go untreated. Of course not. It cannot be generalized that way, which I am sure you know. We are not a cruel and heartless people. Again, you are forming an opinion based on the actions of our government and foreign policies. Do you want to work your tail off all year long to have almost a quarter of your income go towards public incentives like the things you are describing? MOST of America is the Middle Class. WE are the ones providing for the indigent and ill, NOT the wealthy who are almost always exempt from the laws and regulations we are subject to. WE are the ones that these new taxes and laws are affecting most. Sure, let's balance things out and get rid of classes all together in this country. That MUST include the wealthy. Let's take half of their money and share it with the rest of us, starting with the indigent and ill. Let's implement caps on how much personal income can be earned in a year, on how much savings and personal assets one can retain. If we are going to make things more equitable, let's go across the board and DO it.

That's not gonna happen, though, and we all know it.

Originally posted by Gradius Maximus

Has America always been so heartless or is this a recent development from the bad economy?

How can a soceity of immigrants start saying immigrants are bad?

If your skillless great grandparents came over from europe and couldnt speak english would you deny them healthcare and kick them off your land because they are not "True Americans"?

It's always been pretty heartless to minorities and the lower classes, since it regards them as "losers" in the big capitalist game who should just fall by the wayside. If you listen to "conservatives", they say that all the time.

About once a generation, we have a period of reform in the US like in the 1930s and 1960s that makes capitalism a little more tolerable and probably saves it from total collpase or being overthrown in a revolution. Then there's always a conservative backlash against reform, because they simply can't stand change of any kind, even if it means throwing a few crumbs from the table to the masses in order to save the system as a whole--to save capitalism from itself.

I don't think this particular reform cycle is done yet, though, since they usually las about a decade. The Republicans are going to elect a bunch of Right-wing clowns and idiots to Congress this time around, then probably nominate Sarah Palin in 2012. They will get blown away then.

reply to post by ZindoDoone

By law, income to the trust funds must be invested, on a daily basis, in securities guaranteed as to both principal and interest by the Federal government. All securities held by the trust funds are "special issues" of the United States Treasury. Such securities are available only to the trust funds. In the past, the trust funds have held marketable Treasury securities, which are available to the general public. Unlike marketable securities, special issues can be redeemed at any time at face value. Marketable securities are subject to the forces of the open market and may suffer a loss, or enjoy a gain, if sold before maturity. Investment in special issues gives the trust funds the same flexibility as holding cash.

www.ssa.gov...

or, excuse me, it's sounds like they might be of better quality than the treasury bonds that the gov't is selling off left and right....they are "special"!!

Reply to post by dawnstar

Definetly have to agree with you here! We needed healthcare reform but we got 2000pg+ of legal-lies. I am all for helping my fellow man but not @ the expense of my country. Some conservatives go to far in the belief that no gov. intervention is good. It was founded to preserve our rights and promote a civil society. It appears that now its purpose is to preserve the corporte entity. Perhaps our leaders have been fixing the system the whole time. Social security great idea...but it became a piggy bank instead of an investment. An international monetary format is a great idea...but when controlled by a very small minority group with no oversight, it becomes a tool of enslavement. I believe the bigger picture is: why aren't people being encourage/educated to take care of themselves? Why do we promote the state instead of the individual? Maybe by teaching integrity over social skills, people would become more self sufficient and responsible! We've become that which we demonize... Lazy, so we expect this gov. To fix our woes. How is anything going to be fixed when legislation gets passed that no one has read? It is poor management (that means we the people) that encourages poor employees(elected officials/public servants) Freedom is the exception, tyrrany the world wide norm.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by frimilden


So again, what are your solutions?

For the record, IMO taking the SSA's word on things is tantamount to taking BP's word that everything was fine in the Gulf. If it makes you feel better to believe it, I truly hope that it turns out that way. I am more pessimistic about it, since we have been being told since I was a kid that the money wouldn't be there, and the country is three times more in debt than then, so I just don't see it happening. I will be thrilled, though, to be proven wrong.

reply to post by againuntodust


some doctor's are going that way, after all, they often have to hire extra people just to handle the workload of having to deal with the insurance companies. the money they save from dropping the insurance often is enough to reduce their costs condsiderably...
all the insurance company is...at least for routine care.....is a middle man, a very, very expensive middle man.
I believe health insurance originated with the purpose of helping people when major expenses came up, like hospitalizations and such.

Originally posted by SevenThunders

Originally posted by whatukno
telling us, that you would like for them to take that money (all that money that I have EARNED) and put it in the hands of private financial institutions? Really? You want me to give money that I have worked for, since I was 12, and hand it over to people like AIG?

edit on 9/25/2010 by whatukno because: (no reason given)

The government takes your money before you ever see it, spends it right away and promises to pay it back to you when you retire.

This is the problem with Social Security period. It was not intended to be spent for anything but to pay people when they retire, it was not intended to be the government piggy bank. So wouldn't the best solution for the problem to go after your Congress people to enact legislation so it cannot be touched for anything but that?

Sorry there is no way in hell that any private institution should ever should ever be given those funds, the crisis that we are going through is more than enough proof of that. If you want to give your money to a bunch of thieves and conmen then you are free to do so.

Insurance premiums are being driven up because they can be by the executives at the insurance companies. Whoever was the genius that decided these life sucking leeches should be allowed to operate as a for profit business should be tried for crimes against humanity and locked in a prison the rest of their days.

Why? It is really rather simple the insurance does nothing at all for your health care at all, they are at best compulsive gamblers who are marking the cards and loading the dice. They have been cheating to win for decades now and are upset that people are starting to call them on it. Health Insurance is not and was not a bad idea "collect a pool of money over time from a wide base of people and distribute it out as needed" Some people will use it more than others but in the end each party is helping the other and in turn getting the help that they will eventually need. The problem comes when you are trying to profit from this goal, it is so counter intuitive you would have to be a moron not to see it. Because if you are providing the money management for an industry that is all about dealing with the sick and the dying, you should expect that they are going to get sick and die, not be worrying about which ones can you dump off so you can go on your vacation next year after you already have their money. You cant possibly get the best care from an insurance company that has no medical experience, that is not familiar with your case and your situation yet has all the power to call the shots.

Why is the healthcare system a mess?

It is a mess because we ended up with a bunch of overeducated greedy leeches in the halls of power, because at some point they decided it wasn't enough to make a decent profit that they had to go out for the most profit they could squeeze out of people. You cannot receive the best care possible in a hospital when they are more concerned about making money then they are about you, if the bottom line is their primary concern then you will receive inferior care.

reply to post by Jovi1

The government takes your money before you ever see it, spends it right away and promises to pay it back to you when you retire. This is the problem with Social Security period. It was not intended to be spent for anything but to pay people when they retire, it was not intended to be the government piggy bank. So wouldn't the best solution for the problem to go after your Congress people to enact legislation so it cannot be touched for anything but that?

Absolutely. Do you really think that this will happen though? Getting a Congress person to stand against the majority to change this situation isn't going to happen. What can we do to get a majority of them to do it?

reply to post by Ceriddwen


Solutions to what? I already said I do not buy into the S.S. insolvency and as for healthcare i am reserving any judgment on it until it is in full effect in 2014. However, how can anyone deny that covering pre-existing conditions and your children until they are 26 and done with school is a good thing? The whole death panels and all that hubris is just flat out false so I will not delve into that. I also think that one of the key phrases you said should shed some light onto the scare tactics "since we have been being told since I was a kid that the money wouldn't be there" it is still there and every year they say the same things. Better fix it this year or it will be DOA. Same stuff year after year and it is still here....Wash, Rinse, Repeat. They will continue to say these things and scare people until they get their way and the money is truly gone, done by the deeds of the shysters who drool over it and contribute massive amounts of money to the GOP.

reply to post by SevenThunders


concerning your lambasting of the voters who foolishly got duped by the Dem/Øbama spin machine
and the diehard sociopaths that support these elitist piece of human waste....

read my signature quote from V. Lenin..."...the revolutionary is not a revolutionary if he has any sympathy for this world. He should not hesitate to destroy any position, any place or any man in this world.... "


the term destroy should include impeachment, recall, censuring, expulsion thus destroying a persons standing in society and his political party!

Originally posted by Ceriddwen
reply to post by againuntodust

 

I agree we should pay doctors less, but then educational institutions need to lower the cost to attend medical school so that these professionals are not in debt in the hundreds of thousands of dollars as soon as they graduate.

It is all apart of the same cycle. Corporate executives took over the hospitals and said hey we can be making so much more money if we do this, this and this and started making more revenue. The doctors seeing the hospitals making execesive profits wanted in on the action and why shouldn't they they are the ones that are actually producing the work. Which in turn the universities and medical schools saw this and naturally wanted their piece of the pie because they were the ones who supplied all the training for those skilled hands to make that money. It all comes down to greed really how much is enough? At what point does the guy in charge of the hospital say hey this shouldn't be about making money it should be about treating the sick first? That is when the healthcare system will change and not a moment before.

Originally posted by whatukno
Don't blame the government for your problems, fix them yourself.

I will blame the government for my problems when they are the ones who caused said problems - as is the case with healthcare!!! Come to think of it, there are a myriad of problems created by the government.

reply to post by kozmo


back around the time of the depression, the gov't decided to restrict the pay that companies gave employees...but they didn't regulate the fringe benefits....
getting good employees was rather competitive for some reason (maybe this was during the war or something. I'd have to go through a search engine to refresh my memorty), but well, companies began luring in their needed employees with a rather new benefit...
healthcare!

so well, the employers in the country have been the main vehicle for health insurance since them....but the sicker you are, the less likely you will be to work...
but, well.....it was the gov't's meddling (and the business sector's reaction...that has appointed employers with this function.