Muslim women protest against push to ban burka in Australia

Originally posted by oozyism
Eat, eat, eat!!

LOL! You're starting to worry me Ooze!

Originally posted by oozyism
that is not an Islamic law, it is kinda a Jewish law, from the old testament.

Indeed! But it's origins are pointless. Islam has adopted this cruel and barbaric practice and although they may be trying to bring a stop to it in Iran, there are plenty of other Islamic nations still practising it to this day.

Originally posted by oozyism
While the death sentence for a mentally retarded America still goes on

Is she mentally retarded Ooze? Because if she is, the death sentence would be unconstitutional... or are you just being a little bit misogynist?

Originally posted by oozyism
Embarrassing, but the again, hypocrisy is the middle name of the Western society

In some countries, yes, there is hypocrisy at the highest level.

Originally posted by oozyism
Here is the political sides of this story which the sheep keep forgetting:
To me it seems the US doesn't want reform in Iran, because if reform comes there would be no excuse for a regime change, or for an outright invasion of Iran. If you think about the supposed reformist president, and look at the statistics, you would see how embarrassing it looks

No argument from me there Ooze! are you surprised by that? Would it also surprise you to know I support the plight of the Palestinian people?

Originally posted by oozyism
Now, in regards to why so much propaganda? Umm interesting, I think in order for you to understand that, you have to understand why there isn't any propaganda against Saudi Arabia..

If Saudi Arabia comes in to play, or USA, they will say, well it is an internal matter, has nothing to do with you Aussies..

Yes, I'm well aware of the hypocrisy concerning America's attitude in regard to Saudi Arabia. It makes me uncomfortable!

IRM

reply to post by InfaRedMan


So we don't disagree at all, you just hate Islam, and I hate hypocrisy

Neither one of us think stoning is the right way, but I go further and say stoning is not Islamic, but you go further and say but Muslims still practice it, and I will go further and say they are a bunch of thugs, just like a bunch of thugs practicing rape in Western society. Or a bunch of thugs practicing pedophilia. Or a bunch of thugs practicing Slavery, sexual Slavery etc etc

Thanks for the discussion

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by InfaRedMan

 

So we don't disagree at all, you just hate Islam, and I hate hypocrisy

Thanks for the discussion

I don't hate Islam at all. I hate the way it is interpreted, exploited and corrupted by man. Same goes for most religions including Christianity/Catholicism. I don't hate them but I'm not a fan of them either. I am agnostic and remain on neutral ground. I see the good and the bad of all religions. If I hated Islam, I wouldn't support the plight of the Palestinian people now would I!

IRM

reply to post by InfaRedMan


That is the difference between me and you, you are an agnostic, but seem to think agnostic people are not involved in any crimes at all, or somehow they are saints??

What is your definition of agnostic, just because you are agnostic, or label yourself as agnostic, doesn't mean you won't murder, rape, molest or mass murder.

Just because you are a Muslim, or labeled as one, doesn't mean you don't rape, murder, molest or mass murder.

It is the same thing.

You will obviously go further and say, well Muslims do it in the name of Islam. How about this, I go to the market, strap a bomb on my chest, and claim I'm doing it in the name of agnosticism, and blow up myself and a bunch of religious people, Muslim/Christian/Jews/Bhusdists etc..

I want to know how you would defend yourself, as an agnostic if the above occurred.

Please don't say "it hasn't happened yet", because that way we can't discuss the issue at all, can we?

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by InfaRedMan

 

That is the difference between me and you, you are an agnostic, but seem to think agnostic people are not involved in any crimes at all, or somehow they are saints??

I do? Show me where I said that!

Originally posted by oozyism
What is your definition of agnostic, just because you are agnostic, or label yourself as agnostic, doesn't mean you won't murder, rape, molest or mass murder.

I am gathering that was a rhetorical question because you appear to be in dialogue with your own supositions. Ooze, I can actually vouch for myself in saying no, I wouldn't personally do anything like that mate.

Originally posted by oozyism
Just because you are a Muslim, or labeled as one, doesn't mean you don't rape, murder, molest or mass murder.

Did I say that? Can you show me where? You're running off the rails a bit here Ooze!

Originally posted by oozyism
You will obviously go further and say, well Muslims do it in the name of Islam. How about this, I go to the market, strap a bomb on my chest, and claim I'm doing it in the name of agnosticism, and blow up myself and a bunch of religious people, Muslim/Christian/Jews/Bhusdists etc..

Can you point me to one instance where an agnostic person has done this? I can point you to many that are religiously inspired though. Your analogy doesn't stand up to honest scrutiny Ooze. C'mon mate!

Originally posted by oozyism
I want to know how you would defend yourself, as an agnostic if the above occurred.

I wouldn't need to defend myself. I didn't do it.

Originally posted by oozyism
Please don't say "it hasn't happened yet", because that way we can't discuss the issue at all, can we?

I won't say it hasn't happened yet. You show me where it has and then we have a discussion my good man!

IRM

reply to post by InfaRedMan


OK we don't have a discussion then

Bye

reply to post by oozyism


Correct! There is no issue to discuss in relation to agnostics 'killing in the name of (?)'. Given we don't have any deity to appease by spilling the blood of another in the name of doctrine, or to earn ourselves some coveted place in the afterlife. The fear of death and 'nothingness' seems to motivate people into doing crazy things to feel at peace with that concept. I guess that's where we get the term 'In the name of god'. It removes any personal responsibility from the individual for their actions by claiming it serves the will of a higher authority.

So you're just going to walk away and concede Ooze? That's not like you! You know.. never let the truth get in the way of a good argument.. and all that!

IRM

reply to post by oozyism


You said you would like to help victims of domestic violence but you don't because the victims get a rush from it. Are you sick?

More often than not victims don't automatically leave their perpetrator simply because they have no where else to go, no money, no nothing. However I'm aware there may be afew people out there who do help take them in only to take advantage of the vulnerability.

Perhaps you need to research why women stay with these abusive husbands and why many of them go back time and time again before they do finally leave for good. It's not as easy as ABC.

Originally posted by q_ball

Muslim women protest against push to ban burka in Australia

www.news.com.au

MUSLIM women have rallied in their hundreds to oppose moves to ban the burka in Australia, condemning the push as part of an orchestrated "war on Islam" in the West.

Women swathed in veils and wielding placards declaring "my burka - conviction not coercion" and "leave my mum alone - we love nikab" gathered yesterday in a park in Punchbowl, southwestern Sydney.

The first public protest against calls to ban the veil, the rally was co-ordinated by a coalition of Muslim groups known for their oft

(visit the link for the full news article)

I remember one time when I was a kid that I heard about a woman who was kept a prisoner in a cellar as a sex slave for about ten years or so. When she was freed she said that the man never hurt her and cared deeply for her. What this is by these women is the same thing, mass delusion that wearing body sheets that hide their beauty is somehow a good thing when it is degrading.

Just ban the burqas and move on.

Originally posted by Fromabove
I remember one time when I was a kid that I heard about a woman who was kept a prisoner in a cellar as a sex slave for about ten years or so. When she was freed she said that the man never hurt her and cared deeply for her. What this is by these women is the same thing, mass delusion that wearing body sheets that hide their beauty is somehow a good thing when it is degrading.

Just ban the burqas and move on.

edit on 23-9-2010 by Fromabove because: (no reason given)

You dont really understand why they wear body sheets do you ? and yet you come to conclusion thats its degrading.

This is a very classic example misunderstanding about Islam. It is guidelines from god.
Unless you are atheist, you shouldnt say that way.

reply to post by RainCloud


What I find strangest of all is most of the women shouting about Muslim oppression for wearing a long dress and a veil can't wait to put on a long modest dress and a veil when they get married,

Oh my god the oppression of the west forcing women to wear veils when they marry a man, something must be done about this, people in wedding dresses could rob petrol stations and no one would be able to identify them

Originally posted by davespanners
reply to post by RainCloud

 

What I find strangest of all is most of the women shouting about Muslim oppression for wearing a long dress and a veil can't wait to put on a long modest dress and a veil when they get married,

Oh my god the oppression of the west forcing women to wear veils when they marry a man, something must be done about this, people in wedding dresses could rob petrol stations and no one would be able to identify them

Thats probably a few more of the tradition, from my POV, muslim women should wear like the nun, it satisfy the requirement and modest. Those burka isnt very practical, have security implication and uneasiness to the public. It should not be ban but restricted. A good example is what the justice system practice with proper dress code while in court.

reply to post by bluemirage5


Perhaps you need to go outside your house and make some friends.

I am fully aware that there are women who don't leave because of their vulnerability, but you can't truly help them unless they help themselves. No one can.

I'm not talking about women who are vulnerable, do you think the 16 year old girl doesn't have any parents to take care of her? She does, she visits her parents all the time, they live couple blocks away from my house.

And she isn't with my neighbor anymore, because my neighbor left her, dumped her, what ever you want to call it.

This is called Gangsterism, it is growing fast here in New Zealand, it is a culture, which both women and men abide by.

reply to post by q_ball


I'm about as anti-Islam as any educated sane person can be, but these burka bans whether they be in austrailia, france, wherever are just plain stupid.

reply to post by InfaRedMan


Sorry mate, this is not conceding, this is just getting boring.

If you don't have the ability to imagine agnostics kill religious people for the sake of agnosticism then there is no point arguing.

The same way Atheists could never imagine killing religious people in the name of Atheism (they said it has never happened before), until it happened somewhere in Russia, hundreds of thousands of people were killed due to the philosophy of Atheism.

Same crap different smell.

You need to use the right side of your brain from time to time

Once again, no discussion here.

I wanted my previous post to be the last post, that is why I didn't write any arguments, but since you wrote couple of paragraph, didn't want you to feel left out

Anyways, this one will definitely be the last post, I hope lol, from my part.

Originally posted by fooks
what's the difference between a burka and a kkk sheet?

The motivation and reason behind wearing one.

A burka - is meant to cover for modesty, is it not? So that a woman's body is only shown to her husband and/or family members. Is it not to reduce temptation of other men? Because doesn't the ancient belief of a Burqa include that Women and Men should dress modestly in front of other people out of respect for eachother, and for themselves? Honor of the family? etc...etc..

And... in a true Muslim environment, aren't men to dress modestly as well? Right well here is where we get the double standard of the man in shorts and dude-tank-tops and a woman fully clothed in a Burqa in the middle of of a British Columbian Summer. But then there are those, who follow the old traditions and BOTH are dressed to the belief in which they hold.

And for the record, when I see husbands wearing a hell of a lot less clothing then their wives, I cringe at the double standard, at the "I can do what I want, and you can do what I say." But I smile to myself when I see those who actually follow their religion without picking and choosing which parts fit their lives best. When both are dressed modestly in public, it shows respect for one another too. Because THIS is their culture.

In America, I can wear shorts and a thank top and my boyfriend could wear shorts and a t-shirt and I'm not going to get offended that other woman could figure out what his body looks like. He could walk around without a shirt, and I wouldn't think twice. But this, is my culture. No theirs

And, the reason for a KKK sheet?
Right... I'm not going to address that as even being remotely close to the purpose of a Burqa. For sure, there are those who could quite possibly wear a Burqa for the purpose of committing a crime, or hiding their identities, for sure... But on the flipside - there are those who wear the Burqa because of the respect they hold for the religion and the beliefs that they have.

And for the record, I always thought the point of a KKK sheet was so that pillars of society who were secretly racist and held secret meetings at super secret gentlemens clubs, could burn crosses, commit crimes against other races and still go to work the next day without anyone knowing of the things they'd done...

I could be wrong though. Maybe the KKK sheet is actually for modesty - I just find it interesting that most sheets, weren't worn out in public "Hey Joe you coming to the meeting tonight?". And maybe the sole reason for a Burqa is for the point of commint crime... Im gonna go ahead and say that I refuse to believe that as being the case in the majority.

Believe it or not, there are women out there who value their religion, who believe it wholeheartedly and who will FIGHT for their right to wear one, because it is a belief that they have.

Try and ban Christian Women from wearing a cross around their necks. Have fun with that.

both cover head to toe.

both are associated with religion, bigotry, violence, oppression,civil rights?

Association, and mis-association as a result of misunderstanding or a lack of proper education and perhaps even our own preconcieved notions of "what is" - are two completely different things. Do we all associate all people with tattoo sleeves as Hells Angel's bikers? Um No.

Originally posted by lostinspace
They only represent a greedy husband who does not want other males looking upon his wife.

Perhaps in some cases, but not in all. Not all Muslim men are greedy husbands. Some of them, actually do respect and follow their religion in all facets. And perhaps one could view the Burqa as being a bit extreme. Especially in the summer when everyone's wearing bikinis and running around the beach. And some of us could look at very primitive cultures in Africa which still all go topless and naked whenever possible. But therin lies the difference....the sexualization of a culture. When a man in a tribe is looking at the medicine woman he might have glanced at her breasts, but he's probably seen them a million times, and isn't trying to hide any sort of physical evidence of being aroused.

(One could probably also conduct a study on the differences in divorce rates/lifelong partnerships, and modesty between cultures and whether or not there could be a correlation between the two..)

Originally posted by L1U2C3I4F5E6R
I agree that women should be banned from wearing them in public. Not JUST because its a religious thing but.... the fashion sense is simply appalling.

So... should be banning sweatpants too? I hate dudes in sweatpants. It makes me feel dirty. Yeah, lets go ahead and petition for those to be banned too. And! perhaps induce a charge on sweatpants manufactuerers for making such an atrocious item of clothing so readily available to those who lack the fashion sense to purcahse a pair of wranglers.

Originally posted by mazzroth
Muslim women who are in my country are bound by our rules not theirs, you are privileged to walk on our soil and you must do as we say.

Q1. When I go on a holiday to a Muslim Country, am I required, by law, to wear a Burqa whilst visiting?

GO back to where you come from if you don't like it here - its simple, our culture is what allowed you come here and to have a say in the first place not yours because you have fled your cesspit to come here.

Q2. And Muslims who were born in Austrailia and who continue to practice the Muslim religion...what would you suppose your Government do about them, hmm?

Originally posted by The_Seeker
Yes it is related to security and crime, its also about politeness, its about showing to the people around you who you are and that you have nothing to hide, and being respectful of a countries laws, especially if they wish to change them (although, as pointed out there is not going to happen:

,

But I do have something to hide. ME. You have no business knowing me, or my thoughts - until I invite you in. You have no business seeing my body parts. Knowing my family. Or where I live: YOU have to prove to ME that it's safe to have you in my life. Do you see what we're doing here? We can potentially go in circles over simple semantics.....and all everyone wants - is to know that no one has anything to hide.

Then I vote we all go naked - because you have NO idea what I could be hiding in my bra or in my pants. I could probably get a handgun in there if I tried. Or a knife. I could have a pistol between my legs under my dress in a leg holster. Ban doors with deadbolts because you have NO idea what your neighbour could have in their home. An illegal grow-op. A kidnapped child. A methlab. Homemade nuclear bombs. Pirated Movies. Stolen Merchandise. Shoes that are illegal in 9 counties because of the insanely tall stilleto, it could be used as weapon you know. And Hey - if it could potentially save a life: why not do it?

Because it's irrational. And like I said, the motive behind wearing a Burqa is not hide something - that is only YOUR misinterpretation of its purpose. And that is due to a lack of education on their belief systm. For sure there are some who do hide - but there are those who don't, and it's not right to infringe on their beliefs because we don't understand or believe.

Seriously...what happend to people being tolerant of eachother? What happend you're right - was the extremists who played on the rights they had, or who used their religion as a scapegoat, If there is a God, or an Allah - I doubt like hell he'd like to be used a scapegoat.

Originally posted by Anusuia
What we western women need is our men standing up against these lusty muslim men in our country harrassing the women. These cultures of the Islamic nations are pure LUST based and they behave like animals towards women. You all must become men and stop them now before our society is lost to pure degradation of the muslim lust orientated mindset.

I’m not entirely all that fond of the tone in this particular post.. for me (what I read anyway) is a close-minded opinion (which you are entitled to have) that refuses to see the alternative, and doesn’t take into the consideration the Muslim men who DON’T behave this way.

And to be completely honest – there are Caucasian men, Chinese men, African American men, and Men from all walks of life, which treat women like this. It’s unfair to zone in one particular culture, and place eternal blame on them, for behaviour that all men have the capabilities of displaying.

Originally posted by oozyism
My neighbor, 31 years old, goes out with 16 years old. Every time I go for a visit, she has a black eye, or cut lip. The problem is, I can help her, but I can't. The problem is, some Western women like it that way. They get a rush from it.

At this point in time, I request your additional information (such as credentials, a degree – perhaps in Psycholgy? Social Psychology? Culture & Diversity of Psychology? ) that qualifies you to have such insight into what some western women like. Have you studied human behaviour? Have you studied or read at all, the effects an abusive relationship has on a woman? Or better yet, on a woman with low self esteem? It is my opinion here: that you have no business commenting on what a woman does or does not get a rush from. Because:

a.) You are not a Woman
b.) And you are not a professional in the field of abusive relationships.

And the facts of domestic abuse are:

Some women are/feel powerless, and are “stuck” in situations such as this. Some women develop (as already mentioned in this thread) Stockholm Syndrome, where the victim starts to sympathize with their abuser. AND. There are women, who grow up in households where this is normal behaviour and as such, don’t know that they can do anything about it.

You are right about one thing: You can’t help her. Some women want help – and they take it when they get it. And some women don’t see the possibility of help – and reject it when offered. And some women, reject help because they don’t want it. And some women, just don't know what the hell to do. And its those women, who need help the most.

__

In short? If a woman of the Muslim faith is protesting to wear her burqa because she does not feel it to be degrading, then why make her take it off? If a woman of the Muslim faith is protesting AGAINST wearing a burqa because she feels it devalues her as a woman, degrades her, or infinges on her human rights - then let her take it off.

But most of all, an agreement that satisfies all parties: those who think its a safety issue, those who wish to wear it, and those who believe it's an infringment on human rights -- is really the only solution. Because everyone will be stepping on everyones toes when they think that their "ideas" and their "needs" are most important.

I tend to agree with what I've read about "Sure wear your Burqa, but it should come off in the bank, at the gas station, in public places where it could be considered a safety issue." Just as it's considered a safety issue to be wearing a ski mask while withdrawing money from your bank account. Everyone has to give a little here.


- Carrot