meat = shorter life

I just watched the movie "Chow Down" its a free documentary online. kind of supports the China Study.

If you would like a creationist point of view of eating this is what I have found. Veggies and fruit and nuts are what should make up the majority of our diet, meat was eaten as a special occasion. That way you get all your vitamin and minerals yet your b12 stores are filled up a few times a year.

All this talk of evolving is really funny, seems like in the past humans were stronger and faster and way better at surviving in their environment. this is devolving we have today. Meat doesn't make people stronger or smarter, exercising and reading make people stronger and smarter. Just my opinion.

As a vegan I get drawn into these kind of debates constantly, so I don't want to get too involved.

However, I did want to add this: if you think you are a carnivore because your teeth and jaw structure are designed to eat meat, I suggest you go and try to take a bite out of a live cow and see how far you get. Try a pig and a sheep too while you're at it, I sincerely doubt you'll get very far.

Oh, I also wanted to say that I have been a vegan for two years, a vegetarian for five years before that, and I have never taken a dietry supplement. Furthermore, I have never been healthier than I have been as a vegan.

I guarantee 60-70% of the meat eaters who participated ate their meat well done. For most meat to retain nutritional value, and not have your body recognize it as a contaminant, it must be at the very LEAST medium rare.

reply to post by Bilw85


I still think the science behind Vitamin B12, how and where exactly it is produced, and how it is metabolized by the body is poorly understood. The author of The China Study is totally vegan, but doesn't take any supplements whatsoever. Not even B12. And he's extremely healthy for his age...

The thing that's interesting here is that Vitamin B12, like Vitamin C, is water soluble. That means the body doesn't store it for more than a few days after consumption. If it were fat soluble, like Vitamin D, it would be able to store in the body for months. So if a vegan can go years without any meat or dairy, and no supplements, how can his Vitamin B12 stores stay sufficient? (I know he's not the only one, so the answer is not that he's lying about his diet.)

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


Your insistence on my failure to understand things is getting a bit laughable, mate. You're the one who's had to backtrack consistently on your bogus claims. If you keep moving the goalposts, well then honest debate just goes right out the window. I hope some people here can see through the BS, though.

For the people who are interested, here's a review of it -

The main point of this book is that most nutritional studies that we hear about in the media are poorly constructed because of what the author terms "scientific reductionism." That is, they attempt to pin down the effects of a single nutrient in isolation from all other aspects of diet and lifestyle.

While this is the "gold standard" for clinical trials in the pharmaceutical world, it just doesn't work when it comes to nutrition. Given that the Western diet is extremely high fat and high protein compared to most of the rest of the world, studies that examine slight variations in this diet (i.e., adding a few grams of fiber or substituting skim milk for full fat milk) are like comparing the mortality rates of people who smoke five packs of cigarettes a day vs. people who smoke only 97 cigarettes a day.

Campbell's research, which he describes in a very accessible and engaging fashion, has two tremendous advantages over the typical nutritional study. First, there is the China Study itself - a massive series of snapshots of the relationship between diet and disease in over 100 villages all over China. The rates of disease differ greatly from region to region, and Campbell and his research partners (including some of the most distinguished scholars and epidemiologists in the world) carefully correlated these differences with the varying diets of the communities.

It's not lazy "survey research" either - the researchers don't rely on their subjects' memory to determine what they ate and drank. The researchers also observed shopping patterns and took blood samples to cross-validate all the data.

The second amazing part of Campbell's research method is his refusal to accept any finding without taking it back to his lab and finding out how exactly it works. In other words, we discover in The China Study not only in what way, but precisely how, the foods we eat can either promote or compromise our health.

The book is part intellectual biography / hero's journey (although Campbell is always wonderfully humble - there's no trace of self-congratulation, just a deep gratitude for what he has experienced), part nutrition guide (the most honest and unflinching one you'll ever read), and part expose. The final section leaves no sacred cow standing, and names names! From the food industry, to the government, to academia, Campbell calmly reports on a coverup of nutritional truth so widespread and insidious that all citizens should be enraged.

I have a PhD in health education and a Masters in Public Health - and I can honestly say that no book has shaken my worldview like this one. Anyone interested in health - their own, or that of their family, friends, or community - must read this book and share it. Campbell has started a revolution. Skip this work at your own peril.

reply to post by redhorse

I read an article that stated that some Australian scientists have linked vegetarianism with reduced brain size.

Small brains are okay.

I think every vegan should have one!

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by redhorse

 

I read an article that stated that some Australian scientists have linked vegetarianism with reduced brain size.

Small brains are okay.

I think every vegan should have one!

Actually the study in question linked B12 deficiency with reduced brain size, not vegetarianism. The idea that all non-meat eaters suffer from B12 deficiency is false, so it's a stupid conclusion to say that vegetarianism leads to reduced brain size.

This is just another example of the flawed reasoning used to justify eating meat.

Originally posted by Malvenkemo


However, I did want to add this: if you think you are a carnivore because your teeth and jaw structure are designed to eat meat, I suggest you go and try to take a bite out of a live cow and see how far you get. Try a pig and a sheep too while you're at it, I sincerely doubt you'll get very far.

edit on 9-9-2010 by Malvenkemo because: To add info on supplements

As far as a live cow goes, try checking out what the Masai people of Africa drink every day. The cow is still alive when they are done, but they consume it, like vampires.

I think almost all snakes are carnivores, but I can't think of too many of them that could take a bite out of a live cow.

I can catch a frog with my bare hands and eat it with my 'vegetarian' teeth, would I be a vegetarian? Eating frogs?

Are owls vegan? Can they eat cows with the teeth(?) and jaw structure that they have?

We are carnivores because we eat meat.

reply to post by Malvenkemo

This is just another example of the flawed reasoning used to justify eating meat.

See the laughing face? Twas a joke!

I hope everyones brain is bigger than it needs to be.

Breathing kills you. O2 is an oxidizer which damages cells over time. We can go round and round about what can kill you. Bottom line quit trying to tell people how to live.

Originally posted by brutalsun
Breathing kills you. O2 is an oxidizer which damages cells over time. We can go round and round about what can kill you. Bottom line quit trying to tell people how to live.

Good point.

Have you ever had a person hand you a pamphlet in an airport, telling you that you should switch to a meat only diet? I doubt it. I have had them hand me pamphlets urging me to switch to a vegetarian diet, lots of times.

Vegetarians, why do you feel the need to proselytize?

Originally posted by Malvenkemo
As a vegan I get drawn into these kind of debates constantly, so I don't want to get too involved.

However, I did want to add this: if you think you are a carnivore because your teeth and jaw structure are designed to eat meat, I suggest you go and try to take a bite out of a live cow and see how far you get. Try a pig and a sheep too while you're at it, I sincerely doubt you'll get very far.

Oh, I also wanted to say that I have been a vegan for two years, a vegetarian for five years before that, and I have never taken a dietry supplement. Furthermore, I have never been healthier than I have been as a vegan.

edit on 9-9-2010 by Malvenkemo because: To add info on supplements

Just a dumb question. Power goes out for good. It's SHTF. You probably use tofu or something odd for protein right? How are you going to get what you need out there without meat? BTW it's not the teeth that's the defining characteristic of our diet it's our intestines. Compare us to a Gorilla who is entirely vegan... massive amount of intestines, length, size. Now compare us to a Chimp... a fellow omnivore, short compact good for small amounts of BOTH meat and veg.
I'm not sure how much you've read, but people who've resorted to cannibalism in survival situations... did not use utensils. something to think about.

Originally posted by butcherguy

Originally posted by Malvenkemo


However, I did want to add this: if you think you are a carnivore because your teeth and jaw structure are designed to eat meat, I suggest you go and try to take a bite out of a live cow and see how far you get. Try a pig and a sheep too while you're at it, I sincerely doubt you'll get very far.

edit on 9-9-2010 by Malvenkemo because: To add info on supplements

As far as a live cow goes, try checking out what the Masai people of Africa drink every day. The cow is still alive when they are done, but they consume it, like vampires.

I think almost all snakes are carnivores, but I can't think of too many of them that could take a bite out of a live cow.

I can catch a frog with my bare hands and eat it with my 'vegetarian' teeth, would I be a vegetarian? Eating frogs?

Are owls vegan? Can they eat cows with the teeth(?) and jaw structure that they have?

We are carnivores because we eat meat.

edit on 9-9-2010 by butcherguy because: to add

If you are referring to the Maasai tradition of drinking cows blood, they use a tool to bleed the cow. They are not naturally equipped to be able to do this without the tool. Also this practice is dying out.

Snakes and owls both eat their prey whole, and have various natural traits that allow them to do this, ie: owls have sharp beaks and claws to kill their prey, and have the ability to regurgitate that parts they cannot digest, and snakes have extremely flexible jaws that allow them to swallow large animals.

I'm sure you could catch a frog and eat it with your bare teeth, though I doubt it would be easy and I wouldn't recommend it. Many are poisonous, and even those that aren't carry parasites that are not good for the human body. In fact I read an article about someone who gave himself eosingophilic meningitis from eating raw frogs.

Incorrect. A carnivore is a species that mainly or exclusively eats meat. At best you could say that humans are omnivores, though considering our biological make up (ie: the structures of our jaws and intestines) it would be more accurate to say that we are herbivores that have adapted to tolerate a small amount of meat in our diet.

The majority of meat in the western diet comes from cows, pigs, sheep and chickens, and the fact is the human body is not designed to eat them. If it was, you could run up to a cow in a field, kill it with your bare hands and rip chunks of flesh off with your teeth. I'd like to see you try.

reply to post by Ong Bak


He meant as in we humans have both canines and incisors, the first to tear through meat the second to cut vegetables. Herbivores have incisors (rabbits, horses) and predators have canines(lions, tigers).

-Naeem

My great grandmother, grandmother, and her two sisters all lived to be about 96 years old.
My grandmother cut up celery and left it on the table always, she drank three or more glasses
of tea a day. She ate a varied diet, and walked every day. It was the tea, walking, and lack of processed foods. She gardened and canned foods herself. Letting stress go is important, she just didn't get emotional ever.
The thing about living so long is that you see everyone you love die first. My father never ate onions or garlic and he got cancer. He might have been exposed to DDT as a farmer's son, he was also an electrical engineer exposed to electromagnetic fields at Westing House in the 1970s, and then wet carpet and mildew at an office where the aircondioner failed causing ashma so who knows? He had alot of stress. So I would say: drink tea, take vitamin B, eat onions, garlic, celery, and walk, leaving stress to others. Avoid processed foods.

Originally posted by Malvenkemo
As a vegan I get drawn into these kind of debates constantly, so I don't want to get too involved.

However, I did want to add this: if you think you are a carnivore because your teeth and jaw structure are designed to eat meat, I suggest you go and try to take a bite out of a live cow and see how far you get. Try a pig and a sheep too while you're at it, I sincerely doubt you'll get very far.

Oh, I also wanted to say that I have been a vegan for two years, a vegetarian for five years before that, and I have never taken a dietry supplement. Furthermore, I have never been healthier than I have been as a vegan.

edit on 9-9-2010 by Malvenkemo because: To add info on supplements

Eat a coconut or melon with your teeth. Stop using a knife and tell me how many things you can eat. Don't cook potatoes and other ground vegetables.

reply to post by Malvenkemo
Point well taken on the carnivore vs omnivore.

You are correct that the Masai use a tool, a sharp rock is enough to do the trick though.

You want to slink away from the point about eating a frog, telling me that some are poisonous. That's correct, SOME are, but plenty are NOT, like the kinds that I have eaten. My point is that there are tons of animals that can be caught, killed and eaten by hand, NO tools involved...... It doesn't have to be a cow, pig or sheep to make it MEAT. Think tadpoles, snails, insects, worms, grubs and small rodents. Then you tell me that I might get a disease from eating it raw? No kidding! Just like I can get numerous diseases from eating raw vegetables or fruit!

PS: You need to get outdoors more often and have some real fun! Catching frogs by hand is EASY! It's catching fish by hand that is more difficult, if you don't know some tricks. I can feed you some porcupine meat without the use of tools, if you think watching me take a bite out of a cow would be fun.

Breakfast: 2 pieces of bacon, 3 eggs mixed with cheese and spinach

Snack: broccoli with 1 tbsp. ranch dip

Go to the gym and work out for 45-60 minutes

Lunch: Protein Shake with a can of tuna with light mayo

Snack: almonds

Dinner: either chicken/sausage/ground beef/fish

Keto for the win.

reply to post by anthbes
Oh Noees!

You ate meat!

You're gonna die!

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Malvenkemo

 

Point well taken on the carnivore vs omnivore.

You are correct that the Masai use a tool, a sharp rock is enough to do the trick though.

You want to slink away from the point about eating a frog, telling me that some are poisonous. That's correct, SOME are, but plenty are NOT, like the kinds that I have eaten. My point is that there are tons of animals that can be caught, killed and eaten by hand, NO tools involved...... It doesn't have to be a cow, pig or sheep to make it MEAT. Think tadpoles, snails, insects, worms, grubs and small rodents. Then you tell me that I might get a disease from eating it raw? No kidding! Just like I can get numerous diseases from eating raw vegetables or fruit!

PS: You need to get outdoors more often and have some real fun! Catching frogs by hand is EASY! It's catching fish by hand that is more difficult, if you don't know some tricks. I can feed you some porcupine meat without the use of tools, if you think watching me take a bite out of a cow would be fun.

edit on 9-9-2010 by butcherguy because: (no reason given)

I think you're missing the point somewhat, or rather the distinction between 'could' and 'should'. I'm sure you can, however it is generally accepted that raw meat is terrible for the human body, if only because of the sheer quantity of bacteria and parasites.

Furthermore, if you gave the average meat eater a choice between eating a diet of "tadpoles, snails, insects, worms, grubs and small rodents" or not bothering with meat at all, I'm guessing most would give up meat. Plus the energy that you gain from eating these types of animals is unlikely to be outweigh the amount of energy you put into catching them, rendering the whole excercise pointless.

There is plenty of evidence to show that it is actually benefitial to eat vegetables raw. As it happens I grow my own vegetables, and I thoroughly enjoy eating freshly harvested, raw tomatoes, carrots, aubergines, and a whole variety of others.

I get outdoors plenty thank you, and my idea of fun does not involve chasing and murdering animals.