Fire at Tenn. Mosque Building Site Ruled Arson

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
S and F

This is horrible, dont people understand this isnt the way to do things? This only begets more violence........

Violence is never an answer, I dont care what youre views are. If people really want to change things, they only hurt themselves worse doing things like this...

Horrible

I generally agree with you in most everything you post, but I think I'm going to have to disagree this time. I believe violence will likely be the ONLY solution this time around. With this issue, and all the other issues engendered in the dar al-harb/ dar al-islam rift, and the excessive polarization I see developing in the US over it, with each side getting more crystalized, more hardened in their thoughts and less and less willing to even listen or reason with the other side to reach a satisfactory conclusion, it's beginning to look to me like the embodiment of that ancient question of "what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object".

I answered that question long ago in the only way that seemed logical to me. The mutual destruction of both, or at the very least, the complete destruction of one or the other. "Unstoppable" and "immovable" cease to be factors when the descriptor ceases to exist.

So then, it appears to me that things are only going to get worse in this arena, and will not be solved until the victor takes the field, and there is only one left standing. Sad, indeed, but the way things are going at this point, that's the way it's bound to play out, unless factors on both sides work within their own ranks to change it.

Liberals and Progressives jumping the gun and railing against Conservatives, and Right wingers jumping the gun and railing against the Left will only serve to widen the gap, and hasten the violence. It looks to me like there are a great many on both sides willfully refusing to see that, and merely propagating the party agenda.

The battle lines are being drawn as we speak, even right here in this thread. Meanwhile, the real Radicals on both sides are sitting in the background, having a drink with Satan/Shaitan himself, and all three are laughing at the havoc they have wrought.

Originally posted by Annee
reply to post by nenothtu

 

I'm not one to toss "radical" around. Its not a word I normally use. So - it came from somewhere.

Feel free to make an issue of it if you wish. I won't be responding.

I wouldn't either, if I were you.

Have a nice life.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
I hate to be alarmist but if this situation isn't handled carefully, if calm is not called for from more right wing sources then this could erupt into a terrible situation.

I know some people want this to happen but i don't, the world needs peaceful discourse like never before.

I'd sort of like to see calm called for from more of BOTH of the wings, rather than both energetically working together to try to dig the dividing trench deeper.

Sadly, I think that will not be the case, and we will see that the aforementioned cooperation in widening the gap is the ONLY cooperation we're going to see.

Bigotry - it's not just for the Right any more.

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by seagull

 

Seems like I am the only one not allowed to do this. This sort of stereotyping happens on ATS all the time, but apparently if I do the same thing it's a low blow.

Hmm.

Of course it happens at ATS all the time. Of course you are entitled to do the same, at will. My question is: how do you think doing so will in any way defuse the situation?

Or are you hoping for war in the streets?

In any investigation one must look at the most likely suspects first. In this case it would appear that someone does not want this mosque to be built, and that points to the protesters.

One of course cannot rule out that it might actually be a case where someone working alone just hates religion, a teenager, or even a member of the Mosque itself.

However those last three seem unlikely suspects at this point, while not ruling them out, the hatred for Islam by the right wing should not be ignored. It gives a person motive to carry out such an attack.

Of course they should not be "ruled out". Neither should they be "singled out" - unless and until more evidence is in. That's known as jumping to conclusions.

It's also known as "bigotry", this laying of blame at the feet of a particular group, based solely on reputation, which concurrent evidence.

reply to post by nenothtu

how do you think doing so will in any way defuse the situation?

I don't think that I can diffuse the situation, the Right will not listen to a reasonable argument like every religion has a right to worship here in the United States according to the 1st Amendment in the Bill of Rights to our Constitution.

Preferring instead to escalate their "war on freedom" and trying to demolish anything they see as an affront to their "Anglo European ideals". The Right have already made up their minds that a war is coming in the United States whether or not anyone else wants that war, they have decided that if they aren't in total control over all actions in the United States, than no one will have that control. There is nothing anyone can say or do besides complete submission to the Extreme Right's will that will satisfy them.

Or are you hoping for war in the streets?

I am just not naive enough to think that the Right want's a peaceful solution to anything. They no longer care if a peaceful solution can be reached, they have already decided that their Revolution is coming and they are hell bent on the destruction of the United States and the implementation of a Fascist regime that will make the Third Reich look like a PTA meeting.

reply to post by whatukno


Sadly I am of the opinion that various forms of democracy that are oft touted as the vastly superior form of government where liberties of the people are concerned have more and more in the last half a decade or so shown their fatal flaw that puts them on about even par with every other system out there.

If the majority of the citizens turn out to be angry, reactionary and poorly considered, fear driven, self absorbed and selfish often murderous jerks you simply end up with another regime that espouses basically all the wrong things as far as living a peaceful, intelligent and prosperous life.

Perhaps even more dangerous they tend to absolutely pursue these things from some warped moral high ground saying “Ah but it’s the will of the people that we are angry, reactionary, poorly considered, driven by fear, self absorbed, selfish and often murderous jerks”. Nobody made us become this way; we chose it all by ourselves!

Or did someone make them become that way, through manipulating their news sources, limiting their educations and economic opportunities, manipulating their economy, and ensuring the things that they would be so reactionary to were not only introduced, but introduced and presented falsely.

I still contend the only people wishing for religious law, and religion have power over the state in the United States are conservative Christians, who have long been trying to arrange a majority that want that, to convince those who aren’t that there is some virtue in it, while angrily insisting that if the majority of the people want to be unreasonably angry, stereotypical, intolerant and prejudicial of anything that doesn’t fit into their religious take on life, that this then makes it not only wise but moral.

They simply fear, and quite unreasonably so, that others are going to do, what they desire to do them selves, and force a lifestyle on them.

As always our greatest danger does not lie without it lies within.

So to all those Christian Conservatives who want Canonical and Talmudic Law to rule the land, legislate morality, and create an homogenous mass, enslaved to God as defined by their own religious and political leaders and their own renderings this is about all I really have to say to you:

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


According to the Americancity.org. article posted by MoorfNZ, isn't this same struggle with theocracy occuring in Dearborn, MI?

Originally posted by 23refugee
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

According to the Americancity.org. article posted by MoorfNZ, isn't this same struggle with theocracy occuring in Dearborn, MI?

Perhaps you might want to actually visit Dearborn Michigan or speak with some people who live there and are familiar with it?

Or of course people can make poor excuses for their own poor behavior by choosing to excuse it through the biased perspectives that encourage one to react based simply on one person's perspective from an internet article they wrote.

In fact the Original Poster who is quite familiar with Dearborn from having been there and spent time there has his own take on life in that city, that he states is nothing to fear or worry about, and it's actually a friendly pleasant little city.

So you might want to ask if you are simply seeking out news sources that favor your own bias and fears or if you are honestly engaged on a more reasonable and intellectual level where you are actually interacting across a broad spectrum and seeking out all the pros and cons before forming an opinion.

I can tell you this, Gay men aren't interested in me becoming gay, Muslims aren't interested in converting me to their religion, youth aren't insistent that I speak eubonics or use text short hand, and I know this because I know these types of people, not through some highly biased opinion piece written by someone with an agenda but through my own first hand interaction with them right here in the USA.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Perhaps you should look closely at my screen name. I guarantee you that I have spent as much time aound that part of MI. as the OP. We even have a family reunion there. How much time have you spent in Murfreesboro?
I have no desire to live in a theocracy. Doesn't matter what kind. I have the same disdain for Focus on the Family as I do for conservative Islam. No double standard here.

[edit on 31-8-2010 by 23refugee]

reply to post by 23refugee


I have spent enough time on the planet to know that violence begets violence and becomes a self supporting cycle.

I have spent enough time on the planet to know burning and destroying other people's property is wrong.

I have spent enough time on the planet to know,

Originally posted by whatukno
I don't think that I can diffuse the situation, the Right will not listen to a reasonable argument

No doubt that we are seeing the culmination of a "Culture War".

IMO it is no longer theorey that the division in this country has been orchestrated...by both politicians and corporations and the wealthiest among us looking to maintain power via a dvided populace.

In America even previously nuetral parties have been fiercly attacked...education and science. This has always been a precursor to dictatorship.

But honestly the most critical factor in this culture war is the very recent thinking that if the constitution does not work in favor of the far right agenda...change it!!

That is a terrifying mentality. So far birthright citizenship, the 13th and 14th amendment, now the 1st amendment.

Thus far this "culture war", as disgusting as it is, has occured within the bounds of the constitution...now there is an effort afoot to change the very foundation of our country and the principles we are built upon...and to me that is unacceptable and not negotiable.

As imperfect and at times corrupt a nation that we are, the nature of of enduring greatness is in our constitution and the ability it affords us to change...and if the far right reaches a tipping point in thier effort to edit the constitution to create a permanent idealogical/religious/ethnic tyranny then I know I am not the only "liberal" that will make aggressive use of thier 1st and even 2nd amendment rights whilst they still exist to preserve the country that I love....

That is about all I have to say on the issue of "revolution".



[edit on 31-8-2010 by maybereal11]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


We're in agreement as to violence.

Around Detroit, Dearborn is commonly refered to as Dearbornistan. This is considered a bigotted term.
Also around Detroit, Ypsilanti is commonly refered to as Ypsitucky. This is not considered a bigotted term.
Often, people assume that Appalachian people are somewhat ignorant to the world at large. Surely, if they read some more, broadened their horizons, interacted with other cultures, they wouldn't be such stereotypical "hillbillies".
It's fine to refer to one group as ignorant, isolationist theocrats, but you're a bigot if you point out those same traits in the other .

reply to post by 23refugee


I think you have me confused with someone who wants to tell others what kind of value there lifestyle has.

I don't care how anyone lives as long as they aren't hurting anyone or trying to force anyone else to live that way.

If you want to sit naked in the sun eating bananas all day that's your business.

In fact this is all just a biproduct of people's own insecurities and fears.

If how you are living really is all that, people will see it in time and emulate it, if it isn't oh well, they won't but you still should have the right to live that way as long as you aren't hurting anyone.

Hurting someone does not constitute their own self imposed emotional and mental anguish born out of fear and prejudice.

That's hurting yourself. Sure you can blame it on external things that you choose to focus on that frighten you or cause you sadness or anger, because you don't understand them or want to understand them, to understand no they aren't hurting you, they are just other people doing what comes naturally to them, living the way they prefer to live.

Clean up your own backyard people.

For Christians or anyone who can't even practice their own gospels like turn the other cheek, judge not least you be judged, let he who is without sin cast the first stone, and the meek shall inherit the earth, don't push what you can't live up to as some morally superior way that's under threat from external sources. It's under threat from your own inability to live up to it and display you can and aren't just a self serving hypocrite.

Once again you have the right to live that way as long as you aren't hurting anyone else. Start burning things up, and shooting at people and things, well...

Enough said.

Originally posted by whatukno
So what? Where are the Right Wingers? Why aren't you jumping for joy over this news? I mean it's what you all really want right?

Maybe next time the Imam will be inside the mosque when it goes up in flames right? Don't you guys think that would be keen?

It's about time someone did something, in the UK the majority of Mosques preach radical hatred, but they can get away with it using the freedom of speech act.

About 99% of UK terrorists were radicallised in a Mosque in the UK

Almost half of Britain’s mosques are under the control of a hardline Islamic sect whose leading preacher loathes Western values and has called on Muslims to “shed blood” for Allah, an investigation by The Times has found.

www.timesonline.co.uk...

Originally posted by 23refugee
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Around Detroit, Dearborn is commonly refered to as Dearbornistan. This is considered a bigotted term.
Also around Detroit, Ypsilanti is commonly refered to as Ypsitucky. This is not considered a bigotted term.

I live in the Detroit area and have many Muslim friends and have for many years. I have never once heard those terms you are referring to, I don't know what world you live in but it's not mine.

reply to post by Aquarius1


Does your world have Google or the Urban Dictionary? I invented neither term.

reply to post by 23refugee


You did not say that you googled these so called terms, your post makes it sound like you hear them all the time, I have no reason or desire to google derogatory terms.

reply to post by 23refugee


Yea, I haven't heard either of those terms either.

I have heard Dearborn being referred to as little Beirut or little Baghdad before.

I have also never seen any of the "religious political oppression" you are speaking of. I do know the cops are really harsh, especially if you are from Detroit, I know that they have some killer restaurants in Dearborn, and you can get a killer steak at the Pantheon Club for cheap.

Maybe your experience there is weird because I have never felt anything but welcome from the Muslims in Dearborn.

reply to post by Aquarius1


I didn't Google them. I suggested you do so before you deny they exist.