Violent Anti-Mosque crowd turns on Black Carpenter

Originally posted by maybereal11

Originally posted by nenothtu

I love the way you swung to the right at the end there, though. "My country, see it my way or GTFO. Go to Cuba or something".

Well that was less confusing, but still not consistent in my opinion.

My statement about Cuba or Iran was not meant to be GTFO or "my country" yada yada.

I was simply pointing out that your declaration that you could care less whether a government recognizes your rights or not...

is an easy thing to state when you live someplace that does in fact recognize those rights

and you might feel differently if you lived someplace that didn't

My apologies for misunderstanding your thrust. In fact, I HAVE been to such places. Not Cuba, but Nicaragua under both Somoza and Ortega (no real improvement, to my mind), Afghanistan (years ago, not during this current debacle), and a couple of other places, all of which had in common the fact that rights were unrecognized, and sometimes actively suppressed. None of that changed the fact of their existence, it was only a matter of how far an individual was willing to go to exercise any given right.

There were those around who did just that, and there likely always will be. As a matter of fact, those experiences have helped to form my current views on "rights".

You seem interested in a fight...not discusssion...so that will be it from me on the issue. Feel free to carry on.

No sir, I'm not interested in a fight. I only posted to begin with to give my views on the misapplication of the US Constitution, and a rather free interpretation of such misused concepts as "civil liberties", and the associated concepts of "rights" as applied to both.

You of course are still free to see it any way you like, as am I.

Carry on, then.

Originally posted by maybereal11

Originally posted by nenothtu
[

The USA is a "Representitive Democracy"...which is a form of "Republic" often referred to as a "Democratic Republic"

So was East Germany, North Korea, North Vietnam (and later ALL of Vietnam), etc., etc.

I don't think that's something I'd want to own up to, much less brag about.

Wrong on all counts. Where do you get this stuff?

Ever hear of the Islamic REPUBLIC of Iran???? Geez since the USA is a republic according to you, we must be like Iran!!!

What jibber-jabber BS, Seriously..

I am not going to spend time debating dishonest folks.

The key there is ISLAMIC Republic. I was under the impression that we were discussing DEMOCRATIC Republics.

Are we going to change horses in mid-stream, or have I misunderstood something that I'm going to owe another apology for?

Misplaced anger is what this is.

The average Joe on the street, is expected to be anti terrorist/muslim or he isn't patriotic according to the MSM. People hate the terrorist/muslims because they hate the wars that never end. The MSM tricks people into displacing their anger on this distant middle-eastern country and it's people, many of them who just come here to get away from the awful war zone their homelands have become thanks to us. People should be mad at

1. The Foreign Bankers and their local tentacles
2. The corrupt congressmen, bought and paid for
3. The police/prison industrial complex AKA modern day slavery
4. The military industrial complex ft/CIA & blackwater type mercenaries

Those are the ones who you are all really mad at. Stop being so dumb and know who you are even angry at before you start yelling. dumbasses.

Originally posted by schrodingers dog

Namely because the 'movement' against this project is mainly political and in great part aimed at government officials to intervene. Politicians have weighed in on it, undoubtably will make it part of their upcoming platform/campaign,

Those who weigh in on it have no place in Congress at all, but reality is often stranger than fiction, and we'll have to see what develops should politicians make an issue of it to campaign upon.

They may well get elected, but will not be able, legally, to deliver on any promises made. Who'd have thought a politician would make an unsustainable promise just to get elected?

and it is somewhat insular to think that this is just a few folks that want to file their grievance/protest and go on with their lives.

Agreed, that IS an insular viewpoint. I thought I'd made it clear, but I may not have, that I expect that if this course of action is continued, there will be a good deal more fallout than merely filing a grievance. "filing a grievance" is what they appear to be doing at this point, and it remains to be seen what events will transpire if those grievances are ignored. I don't mean ignored by the government, since they have no stake in this until a law is transgressed, I mean ignored by those seeking to promote discord.

And yes, I believe they are seeking to promote discord, despite their claims to the contrary. A rose, by any other name...

Situations as the one portrayed in the OP video clearly indicate that they are intent to force their will/opinion on others..

That's one take, and may or may not be valid. Another is that they are insisting that their voice be heard, and are frustrated that it isn't. In either event, it is still their right to protest, until it turns violent.

It is not as simple as what you say ... thus, though I agree that no constitutional breach has occurred, what I posted above must be noted and reminded lest we risk approaching the moment when it is breached.

It will NOT be breached, because of people like you and I. we seem to be at opposite ends of the spectrum, and we have differing opinions and interpretations of things, but in the final analysis I'll die just as quick to insure their rights to be idiots as I would anyone else's right to be an idiot, including my own.

There aren't any laws currently on the books against foolishness.

Vigilance commands this for it is much more logical and reasonable to clarify such constitutional issues before the fact rather than trying to remedy them after said fact.

The issue is already clear, they have that right. No further clarification is really needed. It's not yet a constitutional issue, and when it IS, the rights will be no different. The only thing that will change is that the battle will have been carried away from the streets, and into the halls of congress -

- and the voting booth, to throw usurpers out of office, or change the constitution.

reply to post by nenothtu


I think that you and I are mostly in agreement as to the scope and context of applicable constitutional issues, present and potential.

That in my opinion is the most important element of this conversation, for as long as those are adhered to, folks can obviously speak to and protest any issue they choose ... regardless if their call is founded upon vice or virtue. The later judgment is simply a personal interpretation based on one's principles relative to any issue.

All that being said, there's nothing comforting about mob mentality, for they usually act before they think.

Originally posted by guyopitz
Misplaced anger is what this is.

Let's discuss misplaced anger, shall we?

People should be mad at

1. The Foreign Bankers and their local tentacles

Anyone who does business with them, and thus feeds and cares for them, has no business being angry with the product. They should rather be angry with the source of that accumulation of wealth and power. The bankers aren't the source. They'd starve to death without the support of the business of others.

2. The corrupt congressmen, bought and paid for

Again, the congressmen are the product, not the source. Who continually votes people back in to office that they don't want there?

3. The police/prison industrial complex AKA modern day slavery

Police/Prison guards - stop feeding (or even paying) them. Dissolve those institutions if you're unhappy with them. Why create something, and then blame it for it's own creation?

4. The military industrial complex ft/CIA & blackwater type mercenaries

I'm mystified here. Why be angry with these? have you had run-ins with ANY of the above that went against you? I've had run-ins with ALL of them, and am no worse for the wear.

Still, if you insist on being angry with your own creations, why not just UN-create them instead? Wouldn't that be the faster path to peace and happiness instead of just sitting and being angry? Simple. Don't feed 'em, they go away.

Yes, I think since ALL of these are products, not sources, there IS a "misplaced anger" issue here.

Can you guess where the blame really lies?

Stop being so dumb and know who you are even angry at before you start yelling. dumbasses.

Indeed.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan


However, I reminded him that having the polls full of people would likely only indicate that ACORN like groups had been all too effective at mobilizing the most ignorant people in America to follow instructions on who to vote for.

I agree with you mostly, except I do beleive that ACORN has gotten a little bit of the Shirly Sherrod treameant, via editing. Here are some links to the unedited version of the tapes. I havent quite figured how to post links yet so I'll give it a try.
Unedited ACORN scandal links



Thank You Nenothtu, for your in depth response. I can't argue if you feel their decision is "unwise" given your reasons for doing so I don't find to be rooted in the bigotry and fear I see in others reasons. I do however have concerns though on whether if in fact "questioning the wisdom" of the project is the equivallent of questioning the total validity and intentions of the muslim religion itself. This is where my train of thought is going,,,,,

Why should this particular group of AMERICANS have to walk on eggshells to accomondate the fears and sensitivities of another. Are we Americans asking a minority group to placate the masses and concede, only a little bit on their right to practice where and how THEY see fit. Dictating "wisdom" to any group is simply unwise (in my humble opinion). Would we ask the jews in 1930's Germany to give up some of their bussiness to calm the financial resentment of the poorer masses at the time? Perhaps they could have saved themselves from their future by being a little more sensitive to the rest of the German populace. No we would'nt because the Jews were not in the wrong here. And neither are American muslims in 2010 praticing their rights either. They are doing nothing wrong here. So asking them to reconsider the "wisdom" of said project I find to be troubling, and somewhat of a condescension. I hope I'm not rambling here and you are able to see where I am going with this.

This is a very interesting topic indeed, and there is alot of things to think about.

Originally posted by schrodingers dog

I think that you and I are mostly in agreement as to the scope and context of applicable constitutional issues, present and potential.

That appears to be so. Personal opinions and interpretations will vary on a wide variety of issues, but when it gets right down to the core, differences often vanish. Contention is usually in the surrounding details, rather than core values.

That in my opinion is the most important element of this conversation, for as long as those are adhered to, folks can obviously speak to and protest any issue they choose ... regardless if their call is founded upon vice or virtue. The later judgment is simply a personal interpretation based on one's principles relative to any issue.

Exactly my thoughts.

All that being said, there's nothing comforting about mob mentality, for they usually act before they think.

Agreed. Mobs are ALL act, and NO think. When it gets to that stage, they are a frightening thing to behold, and much more frightening to be in the midst of. That's pretty much my whole take on the issue, when I question the wisdom of this these actions being taken presently. They appear, to me, to be either calculated to produce precisely that response, OR incredibly, incredibly stupid and suicidal.

As I said before, though, there are no laws on the books against stupidity, but if I wanted to tear a nation down, I would start by setting its basic fabric on fire.

Then, I'd just sit back and watch it burn.

Note: by "basic fabric", I am not referring to the Constitution, or any other founding document or law. I'm referring specifically to the people who make up the nation. The REAL basic fabric of a nation.

Who are dividing themselves into camps as we speak.

Originally posted by nenothtu
Agreed. Mobs are ALL act, and NO think. When it gets to that stage, they are a frightening thing to behold, and much more frightening to be in the midst of.

Well you finally gave me something to disagree with. The "mob mentality" can also be a precursor to revolution. Let's face it, no one needs a revolution against the PTB than the American public does. Unfortunately they are focusing on the wrong people right now. Give it a little time and these pissed off individuals will see what their own leaders are doing to them. LET THE REVOLUTION BEGIN.

Note: by "basic fabric", I am not referring to the Constitution, or any other founding document or law. I'm referring specifically to the people who make up the nation. The REAL basic fabric of a nation.

Who are dividing themselves into camps as we speak.

OK, who is the enemy then? I'm not disagreeing with this part but WHO do you think is doing this?

Originally posted by intrepid

Well you finally gave me something to disagree with. The "mob mentality" can also be a precursor to revolution.

Indeed ... that's actually why it is called a revolution. After it is finished, you end up right back where you started from but with different figureheads. History is clear on this. This of course is yet another issue with mob mentality ... kinda of a big one.

The sans-mobs approach would presumably result in the preferable semi circle denouement.

[edit on 24 Aug 2010 by schrodingers dog]

reply to post by intrepid

Well you finally gave me something to disagree with. The "mob mentality" can also be a precursor to revolution. Let's face it, no one needs a revolution against the PTB than the American public does. Unfortunately they are focusing on the wrong people right now. Give it a little time and these pissed off individuals will see what their own leaders are doing to them. LET THE REVOLUTION BEGIN.

Rome’s days are numbered and I sense a couple of more epic Proto threads on the horizon in the not to distance future that will continue to illuminate the depth of the deception that plaques humankind.

Timing is everything. More and more people are increasingly disillusioned and more and more people are waking up to the source of that.

The Powers that Be have miscalculated in that they have created divisions so numerous and deep the only thing people will be able to ultimately unite for and against is the Powers that Be.

America has long been a sleeping giant my friend.

They have overreached in the scope of their ambition, and as memory serves Frankenstein’s monster turned upon its Master when it learned the truth.

The secret of America’s true power has always laid in its great diversity. It is our vast differences that when united combine to make an unstoppable force of nature.

It is why they struggle so and take the supreme risks they do, in these manipulations to divide us so, to render us fractured and impotent.

Yet these deceptions can not be hidden forever, nor can they remain hidden long enough to deceive the masses into carrying out the final stroke in their Master Plan.

There will come a time soon where no matter how much people would like to deny the truth, they no longer will be able to.

Together we will all make history and change the course of this world forevermore and right these great wrongs that have for far too long divided humankind.

We have but to keep spreading the truth, and try.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I hear this as a lot as a thinly veiled form of personal attack.

Facts don't cease to become facts because you have assissinated the charachter of those who speak them.

WTF?.....?

Hello Proto.

Seeing that your entire post was off topic, I will try to address your concerns while attempting to tie it into the discussion. First let me say this: I am not in the business of assassinating other peoples character. People do a damned good job of assassinating their own. The Imam has every right to erect his recreational center/mosque wherever the local zoning ordinances allow it to be built. I was merely trying to point out that some of those who were making this a Constitutional issue do indeed hold radical views on the Constitution.

First lets be clear, the Constitution is the Constitution. It speaks for itself and when it doesn't 9 Justices of the Supreme Court speak for it.

Yes, the Constitution does speak for itself. Do you think that it was right for the Supreme Court Justices to have allowed Dred Scott to remain as chattel? And thus allowing hundreds of thousands of Americans to remain in slavery? Do you think that is was right for the 9 Supreme Court Justices to have allowed Norma McCorvey to have an abortion? And thus allow hundreds of thousands of fetuses to be ripped from their mothers wombs each year by abortion suction devices?

However in relation to taxes, Federal Income Taxes are in fact unconsitutional.

Tell that to Wesley Snipes. I'm sure that he would appreciate hearing it. It was guys like you who sucked him in with their fraudulent misgivings about income taxes, and now he is going to have to pay for it.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes

This is not the time to be trying to persuade people not to pay their income taxes. The nation is deeply in debt and your views will only drive it deeper into the red. Perhaps the rich then should not have to pay their fair share either? If you do not want to pay any taxes, perhaps you should be trying to persuade people to vote the c********** (for lack of a better word), out of office in November. This would be the Constitutional approach, yes?

While the Constitution mandates a Census every ten years it does not mandate it be carried out by the Department of Commerce.

The Founders of our fledgling nation had a bold and ambitious plan to empower the people over their new government. The plan was to count every person living in the newly created United States of America, and to use that count to determine representation in the Congress.

2010.census.gov...

Just because the Congress allows the Department of Commerce to carry out the enumeration, it does not make the Census any less Constitutional.

Which is why so many people are failing in regards to the separation of church and state.

Which brings up a post from another member on this thread who was attempting to serve up yet another hot steaming bowl of bushbash. He said that Bush did not properly bury his war dead. Well as it turns out, the widow of a wiccan soldier who died in Afghanistan wanted a wiccan symbol engraved on her husbands tombstone.

Wicca is an esoteric occult practice designed to manipulate reality in concert with the Wiccan’s will. Tools of the Craft include swords and spell books, as well as chalices, censers, cords and crystals.

www.allaboutreligion.org...

Americans United for the Separation of Church and State sued the Department of Veterans Affairs on behalf of the widow in order to get the emblem placed on her husbands grave.

That's all we need is to have every whack job who is looking to have their occult rituals recognized as legitimate religion file suit against the Federal Government and drive this country even closer towards bankruptcy. And this is what Radical Islam is trying to do here today in the United States.

The non-violent anti-mosque protesters are not questioning the Constitutional legality of the proposed recreational center/mosque. But after reading some of your Constitutional arguments my friend, they would be justified to oppose this mosque as being unconstitutional as well.

The issue is not about Constitutionality. It is about sensitivity, divisiveness, common sense, funding, and Radical Extremism. It is about the way that an entire religion has subjugated its women into slavery, and will someday attempt to force that subjugation on women here in the United States. It is about Radical Islamic Extremism, and how it is trying to make inroads right here at home.

[edit on 24-8-2010 by MY2Commoncentsworth]

Click here for more information.

reply to post by MY2Commoncentsworth


Actually they are all sound theories.

You might want to read the threads on these topics before weighing in on them with an opinion of your own. There are likely lots of things you have never heard of or know about to consider.

For instance:

So you know Wesley Snipes screwed up because he signed his returns.

They are a contract. Once you sign the Contract, well...the devils in the details.

Hopefully you will find some time while on ATS to start delving into far more imporant issues than just your paranoia about Islam.

There is a wealth of information to learn about on ATS the likely far exceeds your ability to even consider at this tender stage of your membership.

It's a conspiracy site, and many of us have not only rejected the dogmas but found hidden truths and better answers.

Of course it takes courage to not just investigate these things, but also to try them in the real world.

Courage that many people lack, because lets face it, there is a seemingless endless cadre of people that promote fear of one's own shadow and blanket submission to the herd and the powers that be.

The point being is that no, you can't discredit a sound argument simply by trying to discredit one poster or even a combination of them.

There are a couple packs of posters on ATS with agendas and grudges that don't quite understand that.

The issues and arguments are in fact bigger than the petty little things that compel them.

Some new posters have come here to wage their own little version of a holy war, but it might do them some good to look around, and learn something while they are here, because trust me brother, they aren't teaching anyone a thing, and they are basically just preaching to a small choir.

ATS is a conspiracy site, and they run pretty deep, and in ways, most likely could never imagine.

Thanks.

Originally posted by reevesdomain

Thank You Nenothtu, for your in depth response. I can't argue if you feel their decision is "unwise" given your reasons for doing so I don't find to be rooted in the bigotry and fear I see in others reasons.

At the most basic level, my reason probably IS rooted in bigotry and fear, just not my own. I'm pretty sure that if this continues, there will be blood in the streets. Now, whose design it is to accomplish that is up to interpretation.

I've been around other riot situations, going all the way back to the Hough neighborhood burning in Cleveland, when I was just a kid in the 60's. Riots and mob rampages are no joke, and can turn near uncontrollable in an instant. I truly hate to see that coming here. It has been my experience that when such happens, fear is sewn through a much wider area than the immediate action area, and that ripples outward and feeds itself on the unsuspecting.

THAT is really what I'm against, why I question the wisdom of this decision, and why I wonder who REALLY is orchestrating this. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that it is being, and will continue to be, an orchestrated affair.

I do however have concerns though on whether if in fact "questioning the wisdom" of the project is the equivallent of questioning the total validity and intentions of the muslim religion itself. This is where my train of thought is going,,,,,

No, not really. Islam is every bit as valid to it's followers as Chirstianity is to it's followers, etc etc to include ALL religions. It's not my business to question another man's religion. If it's valid to HIM, that's good enough for me.

Now, the subject of Islam in particular is a really in-depth topic, beyond the scope of this thread. I'll just say this, and move on: there is much more to Islam than "just" a religious facet. It's a far more comprehensive system, a way of life, that includes not just a religious aspect, but political, legal, and societal facets as well. Islam itself is not in question here. Islamic ACTIONS may well have a bearing on it, but as Oozyism so often points out, muslims (the professed adherents) are not Islam (the system itself), to which I can only add that they are Islamic, but there are layers and layers of baggage that goes along with that.

Why should this particular group of AMERICANS have to walk on eggshells to accomondate the fears and sensitivities of another.

Because with right come responsibilities to exercise them wisely. Otherwise, you can find yourself in a world of hurt before you know it. Rights do not include the right to run roughshod across the sensibilities of another, and expect there to be no repercussions. Exercise of a right carries with it the responsibility to own the repercussions as well.

You CAN run roughshod over others, but be aware that there is always a price to be paid when they take exception to that. It's a matter of being willing to pay that price.

And yes, insistence on fanning these flames when there are other alternatives which are just as satisfactory amounts to a provocation, rather than a mere exercise of rights. It IS their right to do so, but brace for results.

Are we Americans asking a minority group to placate the masses and concede, only a little bit on their right to practice where and how THEY see fit.

"Minorities" placate "majorities" every day, and muslims should not be any more immune to that process than you or I. However, they ARE entitled to practice wherever and whenever they like (except, apparently, county courthouses, since Christians can't practice in those place either), but they need to own the consequential ramifications of that.

Dictating "wisdom" to any group is simply unwise (in my humble opinion).

There is a difference between "dictating" wisdom to someone about to drive their car off of a cliff, and simply commenting on it, and standing back to watch them DO it any how. I wouldn't stop them from doing it, but I'd certainly voice my opinion of what they are about to do.

Would we ask the jews in 1930's Germany to give up some of their bussiness to calm the financial resentment of the poorer masses at the time? Perhaps they could have saved themselves from their future by being a little more sensitive to the rest of the German populace. No we would'nt because the Jews were not in the wrong here. And neither are American muslims in 2010 praticing their rights either. They are doing nothing wrong here.

I'm seeing that particular comparison a lot, and it's troubling how quickly we are willing to turn on each other and start applying labels, the worst labels we can think of. I would prefer to consider the situation in more depth before starting to compare a dissatisfied group to Nazi Germany. That may be the case, or it may not, but too quickly applying the comparison will frequently lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You see, a dissatisfied group is just a dissatisfied group. However, the INSTANT they are demonized, they realize that they are no longer being heard. They've been categorized and filed away. When their voices are no longer perceived as being heard, they WILL get louder - as loud as they think it will take to be heard and addressed.

On the other side of the coin, I'm not sure whether the muslims are doing anything "wrong" or not, but I AM sure what they are doing is legal. "Wrong" is a subjective interpretation of events. What we may see as "wrong", they may see as "right", or even a duty. That really doesn't matter in the final analysis, since right or wrong, it's LEGAL. Even then, I still maintain that they'd better be ready to bear the fallout, the consequences of their actions in exercising their rights, because those WILL come, also whether they are right or wrong.

Freedom is never free, and it's not always soldiers who foot that bill.

So asking them to reconsider the "wisdom" of said project I find to be troubling, and somewhat of a condescension.

I'm not asking them to reconsider. I'm commenting on my perception of the wisdom of that action. They can still do with that what they will, or ignore it altogether, which I suspect will be the case.

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by nenothtu
Agreed. Mobs are ALL act, and NO think. When it gets to that stage, they are a frightening thing to behold, and much more frightening to be in the midst of.

Well you finally gave me something to disagree with.

Sorry if I kept you waiting!

So we meet again...I hope the day has found you well.

The "mob mentality" can also be a precursor to revolution. Let's face it, no one needs a revolution against the PTB than the American public does. Unfortunately they are focusing on the wrong people right now. Give it a little time and these pissed off individuals will see what their own leaders are doing to them. LET THE REVOLUTION BEGIN.

Now, see, we're supposed to be DISAGREEING here, and you're making me work to find an argument! Everything you say above is true, but the mob mentality, as you observe, is often a PRECURSOR to revolution. BY the time it gets to an actual revolution, that mob better be organized, aware, and THINKING, or it's going to get picked apart, and be several smaller DEAD mobs. Otherwise, they are no longer under the mob mentality.

Note: by "basic fabric", I am not referring to the Constitution, or any other founding document or law. I'm referring specifically to the people who make up the nation. The REAL basic fabric of a nation.

Who are dividing themselves into camps as we speak.

OK, who is the enemy then? I'm not disagreeing with this part but WHO do you think is doing this?

I can't really say for sure, all I can say is that they are likely well insulated at the moment, not in harm's way. Whoever it may be, there's no doubt in my mind that minions, both witting and unwitting, will likely have to be plowed under to get to the real culprits, who I don't think will escape this time.

It's a sad thing, but a fact of most modern-day revolts.

I'm not going to fall into the trap of saying "it's the jews!" or "it's the muslims!" or "it's the bankers!" or the NWO, or any of the usual suspects. My personal view on the NWO, TPTB, or whatever you want to call that nebulous "them" is that it's likely a conglomeration of organizations, not just one centralized cabal. Like al Qaida (tm), the NWO (tm) is likely nothing more than a blanket organization for a number of less organized sub-groups. They work together when it suits them, and fight one another when they think no one is looking.

reply to post by nenothtu


This is the best post on this subject that I have seen. Thank you.

I will quote this and source it in another forum.

Kudo's.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Thank you. I'm in the job market at the moment. Know of any campuses looking for a half-fast political theorist and full time curmugeon?

I'm just calling this situation like I see it, and trying to answer these questions as honestly as I can. This issue is complex, a really sticky problem. The only real solution I see, given the current state of each side's sensibilities, and the law, is to sound the alarm, give the warnings, and stand back to watch the turmoil.

So far, nothing has occurred that would warrant (or justify) governmental intervention. By the time that rolls around, the situation will have gotten uglier than even this, but as they say, "boys will be boys", which is to say that when tensions and emotions are high, rational thought, and so rational decision making, goes on vacation.

Then everybody suffers.

Originally posted by k0mbination
...if you read the historical text's, muslim's on the whole have been far move tolerant of other religions than christians. (look at the crusades) I'm neither a christian or muslim. But I have lived in the middle east and europe so rightly or wrongly I feel I have a fair understanding of the issue

Really?

Besides Saudi Arabia which currently bans churches all together, the following countries all enforce significant limitations on new churches and/or expansions to old ones: Algeria; Bahrain; Bangladesh; Egypt; Indonesia; Iran; Turkey; Jordan; Kuwait; Libya; Morocco; Pakistan; Syria, and the UAE,

(1) Taking Egypt as a specific example, the President of Egypt (by custom, reserved for a Muslim) must personally approve all Church building applications, and the Provincial Governors (of 28 Governors, all are Muslims), must approve all applications for repairs, even for small repairs, such as a toilet or broken window.

cgi.stanford.edu...

(2) In fact, in August 2009, a Fatwa was issued in Egypt by the Muslim council which prohibits the construction of new churches in Egypt and calls building of a new church a 'sin against god'.

www.aina.org...

(3) The persecution of Christians in Egypt continues as Christians continue to be the victims of forced deportations, mob violence, and murder.

2010.03.12 Egypt (Marsa Matruh)
23 Christians are injured when a Muslim mob attacks their community after rumors of a church construction.

2010.02.09 Egypt (Menoufia)
A young Christian carpenter is gunned down at close range and killed by a Muslim policeman in a suspected sectarian attack.

2010.01.07 Egypt (Nag Hamadi)
Six worshippers and one guard are gunned down by Muslim radicals as they leave mass at a Christian church. A 14-year-old is among the dead.

2009.10.18 Egypt (Attaleen)
Muslims gun down a 61-year-old Christian whose son was dating a Muslim girl.

2009.09.16 Egypt (Bagur)
A 63-year-old Christian is stabbed to death by a rampaging Muslim.

2009.08.15 Egypt (Cairo)
A 22-year-old Christian conscript is murdered in his barracks after suffering horrible abuse over his religion

2009.06.21 Egypt (El-Fashn)
A Muslim mob assaults a Christian church, smashing and slashing until at least twenty-two worshippers lay injured.

2009.03.05 Egypt (Qalubiya)
Muslims set a young Christian on fire and also stab his 60-year-old father to death

2009.02.22 Egypt (Cairo)
Islamists bomb a market, killing a 17-year-old French girl. 21 are injured.

2008.10.05 Egypt (al-Tayeba)
A 19-year-old Christian is shot to death by a Muslim mob. Three are injured.

www.thereligionofpeace.com...

(4) Besides a significant level of Muslim animosity towards non-Muslims in Egypt, the legal position of Egypt's Christian Copts is worth examining. Despite making up 6 to 14% of Egypt's population (depending on the source), Copts are restricted in the upper levels of government.

By custom, the following positions are occupied by Muslims: President, Prime Minister, Assistant Prime Minister, Minister of Defense, heads of
the various branches of the Egyptian Armed Forces, Chairman of the
People's Assembly, Governors (of 28 Governors, all are Muslims), heads of all government service offices, chiefs of police, and presidents and deans of universities.

www.aina.org...

(5) Interestingly, Egypt received $1.6 billion of aid from the USA in 2009, the second biggest recipient after Israel.

www.progressive.org...

Originally posted by nenothtu

Why should this particular group of AMERICANS have to walk on eggshells to accomondate the fears and sensitivities of another.

Because with right come responsibilities to exercise them wisely. Otherwise, you can find yourself in a world of hurt before you know it. Rights do not include the right to run roughshod across the sensibilities of another, and expect there to be no repercussions. Exercise of a right carries with it the responsibility to own the repercussions as well.

You CAN run roughshod over others, but be aware that there is always a price to be paid when they take exception to that. It's a matter of being willing to pay that price.

And yes, insistence on fanning these flames when there are other alternatives which are just as satisfactory amounts to a provocation, rather than a mere exercise of rights. It IS their right to do so, but brace for results.

Are we Americans asking a minority group to placate the masses and concede, only a little bit on their right to practice where and how THEY see fit.

"Minorities" placate "majorities" every day, and muslims should not be any more immune to that process than you or I. However, they ARE entitled to practice wherever and whenever they like (except, apparently, county courthouses, since Christians can't practice in those place either), but they need to own the consequential ramifications of that.

Would we ask the jews in 1930's Germany to give up some of their bussiness to calm the financial resentment of the poorer masses at the time? Perhaps they could have saved themselves from their future by being a little more sensitive to the rest of the German populace. No we would'nt because the Jews were not in the wrong here. And neither are American muslims in 2010 praticing their rights either. They are doing nothing wrong here.

I'm seeing that particular comparison a lot, and it's troubling how quickly we are willing to turn on each other and start applying labels, the worst labels we can think of. I would prefer to consider the situation in more depth before starting to compare a dissatisfied group to Nazi Germany. That may be the case, or it may not, but too quickly applying the comparison will frequently lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy.

An excellent post. I wish more people on this forum would switch their brain on, like you, and stop seeing everything in black and white.

So far on this forum I have been labelled a racist, xenophobe, bigot, troll and probably a few things I have forgotten.

The ironic thing is, I am in a postion where I could discriminate against Muslims if I were so inclinded. I have never done so, nor will I ever do so. My daughter and wife are freinds with Muslims. I don't mind. They are actually quite nice people.

But still, unless I agree with the mosque (and mass Muslim immigration into the West) I am demonised.

It really is too much.