how do the masons here on ats feel about the NWO?

reply to post by dontreally


By the way, GAOTU is not an impersonal reference to God. It is a generic description of a God that could go by any number of names depending on the religion. Since Masonry is tolerant of all religions, it makes sense that we would speak to God in this manner. YHWH is but one of the names of God. Allah is another. But, if we chose either name in lodge, the other side might be offended.

Personally, when I pray at home, I start with "Dear Heavenly Father." Does that sound impersonal? It is the same concept. I don't like praying to Jesus, because I am not sure how I feel about Jesus. He seems pretty exclusive in who he allows to meet the father, and I don't like that.

[begin religious rant] I love to debate Christians (especially my brother, memarf) on the fact that by definition, Christians have to believe that the only way to meet the father is through Christ. Christ says so, and if you are a Christian then you must believe Christ is infallible, and if he says it, it is the truth. If that is true, then it leaves out all Buddhists, Hindus, modern Jews (especially converts like you), and Muslims. I don't know a single Christian that believes all those people are going to hell, and therefore they are not Christians. They are in fact Deists! Which is similar to what Masons teach. No religious scholar or Christian will admit that Deists are still around, but I contend that 90% of Christians are practicing Deism instead of Christianity. In fact, probably about 90% of Muslims are practicing Deism. In fact, probably anyone that describes themselves as "Moderate" anything, is a deist. If you are a Jew, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, or Buddhist, then you have to align yourself strictly with that religion and risk being called a fanatic or an extremist. If you do not align yourself strictly with that religion, then you are a Moderate, and you are tolerant of all other views, and you are not following the religion you ascribe yourself to, and thus you believe God may exist in other manners or by other names, and thus you are a Deist! [/end rant] PHEW! I feel better now.



[edit on 11-8-2010 by getreadyalready]

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by dontreally

 

As for Idolatry, you are absolutely 100% wrong. We do not worship the working tools, the wheat, the waterfall, the checkered floor, the tessellated border, or the altar in the middle. Every physical representation stands for a concept or moral or lesson. They are all teaching tools, not idols. Even when we pray, we do not pray to the altar, or to any prophet, saint, or son of god. We pray directly to the GAOTU.

If there is idolatry in Masonry, then you might as well say there is idolatry in science and literature. Does a literature teacher alluding to a classic work and illustrating the meaning within that work constitute idolatry? It is no different in Masonry. We teach and learn about difficult and important moral concepts, and we use teaching tools and illustrations to help convey those concepts.

In the examination before Passing, Masonry is said to be "a beautiful system of morality, veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols." While allegory and symbol play a prominent role in the Craft they are by no means restricted to it. Brethren who have a clear idea of how these devices work will find a deeper understanding of how Masonry operates and what it means.

Symbols in Masonry

Idolatry not in masonry? I dont know about that.

What you consider idolatry seems to be what the common folk thinks. Idolatry is INTELLECTUAL, not a physical form of worship. When the Jews built the golden calf. It wasnt the calf itself they were worshipping, but the specific power the Calf corresponds to. This 'power' could be considered by a some a manifestation of the creator and therefore a part of him. But thats the issue. You've broken down his oneoness and have concentrated on just one specific aspect. The calf corresponds to Taurus, and thus they were worshipping the arch angelic power as opposed to G-d himself.

Any worship of an intermediary is defined as idolatry. The intermediary recieves power and sustenance while the creator is effectively ignored.

Of course, there are verying degrees of idolatry. In kabbalah, gevurah and Chesed each reflect a power of the creator in a certain mode. But no Pesel or physical image is used to faciliate this awareness. When one considers G-ds love. At most, he can imagine the creators lovingkindness as the direction of right, Fear of the creator as the direction of left, his unity as before you, his providence as above you, rejection of other powers as beneath you (in that he is the sole power that sustains us) and a care to protect our inner sanctuary (our mind) against foreign thoughts as the direction behind us. This meditation on the 6 spatial directions is a very kosher meditation and free from focusing on any power, but seeing everything as the manifestation of the one.

And most of all, none of this is gaudy. Masonry is ridiculously gaudy. Thats what turns me off most. Its ornate. Its much more self directed than it is interested in growing morally, according to the law of Torah. Maybe there are some masonic bodies that have this philosophical framework and so reject the libertine nature of Gnosticism, Hermeticism, neo platonism, etc. But, i dont know.

So, even though all religions are to some degree about unity, only Judaism is MONOtheistic. Id say Islam is the closest behind it. Other 'powers' should not be acknolwedged and should NEVER be personified, as they do in Hinduism and Western pagan thought...

This is the secret of the word amalek(enemy of the soul), which has the same gematria as Safuk(doubt) and El Acher (other powers). Amalek is the spiritual power of doubt, which in itself is a belief in another power aside from the one G-d.

You seem to have a very good belief system. Maybe masonry is much more layered and convoluted than i think

Originally posted by dontreally


You seem to have a very good belief system. Maybe masonry is much more layered and convoluted than i think

“Freemasonry, a beautiful system of morality, veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols...”

Here
is the link to the above quote.
And here is a great resource to find all about how layered masonry is. I would not say convoluted at all. It may appear that way from the outside.

Originally posted by dontreally
Its much more self directed than it is interested in growing morally, according to the law of Torah

Just for the record, the so-called "law of Torah" most definitely does NOT teach how to "grow morally". In fact, if one follows it, the opposite happens, and one becomes completely morally bankrupt.

Of course, since such "law" simply reflects the demonic moral nature of the Demiurge worshiped by the ancient Hebrews, no one should be surprised.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by dontreally
Its much more self directed than it is interested in growing morally, according to the law of Torah

Just for the record, the so-called "law of Torah" most definitely does NOT teach how to "grow morally". In fact, if one follows it, the opposite happens, and one becomes completely morally bankrupt.

Of course, since such "law" simply reflects the demonic moral nature of the Demiurge worshiped by the ancient Hebrews, no one should be surprised.

Conversely, what you believe is not right.

Please, explain to me how Judaism is Demonic and bankrupt. Have you gone through a Jewish prayer book (a siddur) or read any book on chassidic philosophy (whichis based on the kabbalah) or read the Shlucan Aruch (Jewish code of law).

You gotta a demented way of looking at things.

Explain to me whats demonic about the Torah. And seeing todays Jews are the same ones who according to you 'worshipped the demiurge', please oh wise gnostic, tell me specifically how serving G-d the way ive outlined makes one morally bankrupt.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by dontreally

 

Personally, when I pray at home, I start with "Dear Heavenly Father." Does that sound impersonal? It is the same concept. I don't like praying to Jesus, because I am not sure how I feel about Jesus. He seems pretty exclusive in who he allows to meet the father, and I don't like that.

[edit on 11-8-2010 by getreadyalready]

Judaism, unlike what Christianity and Islam teaches says very clearly in the Babylonian Talmud "the righteous of the nations have a place in Olam HaBa". that makes perfect sense does it not? why would i righteous person go to hell? Thats how you know orthodox Christianity and Islam are political tools used by their elite. They promote and shovel lies and BS down the throats of their followers. And yet the most hated upon group, the Jews, CONDMENS NO ONE to hell. They say in perfectly crystal clear language that all righteous people have a life in the world to come (heaven).

Doesnt that strike you as strange? Judaism is not about political control and this image thats been cast upon Jews is the creation of the western elite. You can cut it anyway you want. The Vatican is the arch enemy of all mankind and especially the Jewish people.

Judaism also acknowledges the right to exist of all religions. In kabbalistic cosmology the universe is structured according to 72 paths. These 72 paths correspond to the expansion of the tetragrammaton (the 'full' expression of G-ds wisdom in creation). Judaism is a religion of priests and the law of Torah only applies to Jews. What applies to non jews as well and which was commanded to Noach was the 7 Noachide Laws (symbolized by the 7 rayed rainbow). This is a prohibition against blaspheming G-d, against idolatry, against eating the flesh/blood of a live animal, against theft, murder, against sexual immorality and to establish a just legal system. This is all G-d expects of mankind. Each nation must follow this law in order for the divine presence (shekina) to rest among mankind.

Even non Jewish leaders, representatives of Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam and Christianity have come to the Temple institute Headquarters in Jerusalem to Support the Rabbis in the building of the 3rd temple. These gentiles are quite wise and must be very educated to understand the Jews purpose in the world. They accept that the Jews serve G-d in the mode of a priest to mankind. This does not at all imply an inferior status to other peoples. EVERY person on earth is a precious and unique creation of G-d. Just like 3rd rung in a latter is as necessary as the very top rung. Every part is important. Jealousy and arrogance from either side is so bad and so detrimental. I applaud these leaders who are obviously educated in the inner dimension of the Torah and so acknowledge the truth of Torah. I also know of some freemasons who embrace this role of a 'bnei noach' and who aswell acknowledge the 7 noachide laws.

Freemasonry and the noachide Covenant

I also know some native americans of Cherokee and Iriqois lineage who are avid bnei noach. Theyve studied kabbalah and they embrace the orthodox Jewish oral law and they seek guidance from the orthodox Jewish rabbis. But, they dont want to leave their native traditions. And thats GREAT!. G-d loves the uniqueness of all people. I personally love listening to the Native american flute and love many aspects of native american spirituality and culture. I feel the same about Asian culture and asian cooking, spirituality and music, and their gardens..

Judaism is actually a surprisingly accepting religion. Yet, theyre thoroughly monotheistic and not deists by any stretch of the imagination. Every Jew must follow the Code of Jewish law. This is the jews purpose in the world; to rectify its courseness.

reply to post by getreadyalready


well the pta doesnt have some secret form of initiation that i am aware of, but any of these groups that are known to have secret rites i think can be dangerous to the public if they are not watched over, not sayin that you are or are not doing something

Originally posted by truth_of_truth
well the pta doesnt have some secret form of initiation that i am aware of, but any of these groups that are known to have secret rites i think can be dangerous to the public if they are not watched over, not sayin that you are or are not doing something

Isn't it possible that a judge might go easy on a defendant because they were both members of the same PTA? Couldn't two or more PTA members go out for drinks after the PTA meeting and engage in some back-room politics? Preferential treatment? Business deals? Humans are social animals. It doesn't take "secret forms of initiation" for two to conspire against a third.

Originally posted by dontreally


Please, explain to me how Judaism is Demonic and bankrupt.

For those who have actually *read* the Old Testament, the answer to your question is obvious.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by dontreally


Please, explain to me how Judaism is Demonic and bankrupt.

For those who have actually *read* the Old Testament, the answer to your question is obvious.

Ya. I read Hebrew and aramaic. I know how to *read*, in its original language and not the confused translations.

So again. Its one thing reading, its a totally different thing to UNDERSTAND.

So, if you really consider the "old testament" to be demonic. Than take a gander at Orthodox Jewish teachings. Theyre the interpreters of the Tanakh. If you want to know how the Torah is interpreted and understood mystically, look at Orthodox Kabbalistic, Chassidic teachings, read a Jewish siddur, Read the code of Jewish law. This is how Jews serve YHVH, who you consider 'the demiurge'.

You can say all day that Judaism has a 'bankrupt morality' and that the Jews serve a false G-d. But that means nothing until you can verify what it is about their religion thats false or corrupt. Most level headed people who end up studying Torah from orthodox sources drastically amend their views and realize the truth of Torah - which is proven by the study of its inner dimension, Kabbalah. And not Kabbalah as taught by gnostics and hermeticists like eliphas Levi or aleister Crowley. They do not honor the purpose of Torah. Theyre about as retarded as the 12th century dominicans who tried to prove the truth of christianity in the Talmud - which was written by JEWS who REJECTED Christianity. Do there shananigans ever change? nope. Zohar - christians try to prove the trinity by it. Lurianic Kabbalah - again christians try to justify christianity through its system. Its almost silly. And than you have teh 1666 Sabbatean Heresy where Sabbatai Tzvi tried to inject gnosticism into Judaism - he was quickly recognized and excommunicated by europes leading rabbis. What does he do? He and most of his followers convert to Bektashi Sufism/Islam. So much for him being the Jewish messiah. And than his pathetic successor Jacob Frank claimed to be his reincarnation and most of his followers converted to Catholicism. My views are so reflected by these actions. Christianity, Islam = same #. Both have the same exact foundation - GNOSTICISM. Sufism is just another name for gnosticism. They uphold very similar philosophical principles. no wonder Frederick II of Hohenstauffen imagined himself to be the emperor who would unify the worlds two great religions - Christianity and Islam. His court was surrounded by sufi and himself being from a christian aristocratic background was obviously involved in gnosticism. The Church and him were never really at end. Not anymore than freemasonry and the vatican are or the early church fathers were against the gnostics. Not unless you really believe tertullian and justin Martyr believed 'Satan invented pagan religions to mock Christianity". LOL! Ok, im a totaly gullible retard. Yes. The church fathers were 100% gnostics who had to create an orthodox dogma in order to rally and control the minds of more and more people. And here we are today. After the great East/western schism, the reformation, and more schisms in protestantism. And all these people are still on the same team. Its still team "gnosis" vs. the Jews.

Theyre just ignoble people. They havent an ounce of integrity. Not christians, but these pathetic mystics who only desire to trivialize orthodox Judaism, not justify their views. CG Jung admitted what was going on in his aion lectures. "Christian mystics have done their upmost to conceal Jewish mysticism".

This is all about the image making and reality breaking. This supreme arrogance which characterizes western culture and thought.

reply to post by dontreally

You seem to have a very good belief system. Maybe masonry is much more layered and convoluted than i think

Although we basically disagree on everything, I appreciate your debate, and I have to admit that I have learned some things, and I have plenty of other things to look into further, so Thank You.

As for the convoluted layers of Masonry, it certainly does not seem that way from the inside. Masonry is very layered, and it has many, many lessons that can be learned, and some are only learned by work within the craft. Some things are incapable of being communicated, and they must be learned through experience. It is not convoluted, but it is complicated.

reply to post by dontreally


I have no desire to waste my time with the "orthodox" teachings of your cult. Falsehood is falsehood, regardless of how pretty you want to try to paint it.

Id like to get the opinion of masons on 9-11 which furthered the NWO agenda of control. I found out that "The Sphere" which was between the two towers, was set to rotate every 24 hours mimicking the procession of muslims around the Kabba (wikipedia) and was created in buvaria, birthplace of the illuminati. And when you take the two towers and put them over one of the masonic tracing boards (2 pillars) and put the pentagon in the center you have a stargate (from 9-11 stargate on youtube.) My wonder is if masonry wasn't being attacked on 9-11 in some way, or if it is as the video put it, masonry was holding a mega-ritual.

Originally posted by trutherman
Id like to get the opinion of masons on 9-11 which furthered the NWO agenda of control. I found out that "The Sphere" which was between the two towers, was set to rotate every 24 hours mimicking the procession of muslims around the Kabba (wikipedia) and was created in buvaria, birthplace of the illuminati. And when you take the two towers and put them over one of the masonic tracing boards (2 pillars) and put the pentagon in the center you have a stargate (from 9-11 stargate on youtube.) My wonder is if masonry wasn't being attacked on 9-11 in some way, or if it is as the video put it, masonry was holding a mega-ritual.

I've never heard any of this, and with the World Trade Centers being the tallest buildings in the US, the center of economic transactions, the housing for several Federal Agencies, and the easiest and most significant target on the East Coast, then I would say that any subliminal Masonic meaning was just a coincidence. I could be wrong, but I highly doubt it was related.

On another note, Muslims embrace Masonry. There is no reason for them to attack Masonry.

Just to give you fuel for your fire though, they also hit the Pentagon that day! More symbolism, or just another obvious target?

One man's devil is another man's hero?

Originally posted by dontreally


I know masonry is symbolic, i never said it wasnt. I said its rituals are pretentious. They may have an esoteric meaning, but beneath that, theres a great deal of pomp and self pretention. Its the pinnacle of idolatry. How any orthodox Jew can reconcile being apart of this group with the Torah adjuration not to worship any G-d beside me. How can you worship with other people who have idolatrous views of G-d? You cant. The many grades and levels aswell are idolatrous and often associated with pagan rites and figures. "knight of the brzen serpent", "Knight of the sun" - Ar you effing kidding me!?

Your ignorance is showing.

I'm really torn here. On the one hand, I honestly read this forum and respond to posts here in an effort to "deny ignorance." My personal inclination is to give people the truth and allow them to make their own choices. On the other hand, I'm inclined to make an exception in the case of someone so entirely ignorant and arrogant that the condemn the notion of a Knight of the Brazen Serpent as evidence of pagan influence in Freemasonry.

Had you any kind of education in Torah, you might not have made this mistake. Had you bothered to read the available summaries of the degrees of the Scottish Rite, you would not have made this mistake. Had you even entered "brazen serpent" into Google and glanced at the results, you would have been spared the public embarrassment of having your ill-considered bigotry so clearly exposed.

We read in Holy Scripture that when the children of Israel were wandering in the desert, they began to complain and murmur against G-d and Moses. As a punishment, fiery serpents were sent against them and many fell ill and died from their poisonous bites. Moses prayed and G-d instructed him to set the bronze image of a serpent on a pole so that all who gazed upon it would be healed. And Moses, in obedience to G-d's command did so and all who gazed on the bronze serpent were healed. (Num. xxi. 4-9)

Now, listen up: I believe that if you make even a cursory study of Jewish moral and ethical teaching, you will find that slander is greatly frowned upon.

If I sound angry, it is because you have offended me, alleged that I am insincere in my religious beliefs, and, through what I can only think is willful ignorance, abused the reputation of an organization for which I have great affection. I now await your apology and evidence of your best attempt at making restitution.

LOL!

Okay. So you call me arrogant and now youre 'awainting an apology"? Do you think such self assuredness is any better than what you accused me of?

Also. Im a little bemused by the sheer depth of freemasonry. I mean, ive come by masons here who are undoubtedly espousers of the Gnostic/Hermetic/Neo-Platonian mentality. So, my attitude towards them is a bit antagonistic. However, therealdeal seems to have a nice patient demeanor and you seem to know a thing or two about Jewish spirituality so im split.

Also, funny that you even bother to criticize my knowledge of Torah. I read Hebrew/Aramaic. I know alot about torah/kabbalah/chassidut. This is my day to day life. 2-6 hours daily im involved in this area of study.

Im criticing Masonry because i know a great deal about it. I know its main ethos is Gnosticism. Maybe not all masons are of this persuasion; hence, the varying degrees and levels and extramasonic bodies within the world of Freemasonry.

For instance, the Tall cedars of lebanon is one such order that CLEARLY is involved in some sketchy things. 'Cedar of lebanon' is understood kabbalistically as a symbol for arrogance. Lavan in Hebrew means 'white' refering to purity, and specifically in reference to Jacobs corrupt sorceror uncle Lavan. One who considers himself a 'tall ceder' of Lebanon is one who regards his ways as perfect - in the sense that even his faults are in accord with the will of G-d. And so, this clearly refers to the egotism and self worship that epitomizes many streams of Hellenistic spirituality. gnosticism/neo platonism,hermeticism, sufism, sabbatean kabbalah etc.

And yes, im aware of the significance of the snake in biblical and kabbalistic writings. My issue is making a degree - which is idolatrous, out of it. I never said the concept of a snake is evil. Moshiach has the same gematria as Nachash. I get how the snake is a symbol for wisdom, particuarly knowledge.

And How dare you defend an order so rife with controversy already. This is far from being slander, but being based on an educated analysis of Freemasonry, its beginnings, its relationship to Alchemy, Catharism, Gnosticism, and the esoteric schools of western thought. Freemasonry from its beginnings has been a POLITICAL organization. I dont doubt that they study esotricism in private. But this knowledge is only one aspect. Whats a Freemason to begin with?! Why is Chriam Abiff the figure chosen by masons? because Chriam provided the materials for the temple. The temple is a symbol for the physical world. So Chiram abiff, the archetypal figure of masonry, is an attitude that each mason must incarnate within his own personality. Each mason goes on into the world to fullfill the will of the ORDER. I know this is not supposed to be spoken of and none of you would ever admit to any of this - lest you be punished. But thats masonry. Whos the current head of masonry? The duke of kent - a birtish noble. English masonry has always been headed by a british noble. The cause of masonry is the same cause as the European aristocracy and the Vatican. All of these groups are tied into it.

Look at the order of the golden fleece. This order is made up only of world monarchs, with king juan carlos of spain as teh grandmaster. King Abdulla of saudi arabia - the 'custodian of the two holy mosques' aswell being a member. Christianity, Islam both symbolic manifestations of the 'perennial' philosophy. Thats what the philosophy of the gentiles is ultimately all about. Acknowledging good AND evil. spiritual AND physical. Its about honoring both as they are. While Judaism and Torah is about sublimating the physical and subjugating it to the spiritual. The ethos of the nations is about making both mutually exclusive and yet reconciled within ones being. Thats why Christianity and Islam exist. Symbolic manifestations of the inherent dualism within the creator; as CG Jung often says in his writings "YHVH is both evil and good", likening him essentially to abraxad

[edit on 12-8-2010 by dontreally]

My criticism is mainly of the organization of Freemasonry and not every Mason. I can see that their are good masons out there.

But you being a member makes you too impartial a witness to appreciate the real nature of Freemasonrym, which of course is based on the notion of secrecy. So dont be so confident to think that because youre member you know 'the real deal'.

If you honestly believe that, sincerely, than i can only say that youve been misled and i would caution others interested in Freemasonry to stay far away from it.

The biggest threat a website like this poses is the shameless glorification of Freemasonry. To my amazement, most of the posters here are freemasons. Someone who finds secret societies interesting tend to be impressed by the spiritual philosophy that masonry upholds. Thus, this website almost recruits people and draws them deeper into Occult subjects, making them proponents and defenders of an institution that serves the goals of the western elite.

The only truth is Torah. Because Torah is the only truth, every human being should expose himself to the wisdom of it. Everyone should study the esoteric dimension of the worlds oldest and most influential spiritual tradition. Im not saying everyone has to entirely 'embrace' it, but atleast respect and honor it. In this context, one can pursue any other spiritual school/culture that he spiritually identifies with, but of course, the most important thing is that nothing taught by this school contradicts the 7 Laws of Noach.

When one doesnt have respect for Torah or its legalistic code, mainly, the 7 laws that G-d gave to mankind, to which every human being is resposnible. Than, people will go down a long and jagged path that justifies the most backwards and counter intuitive ethics based on a severely twisted philoophy that says unity is to be found in the strangest places.

This is the esoteric meaning of why Cains sacrifice was rejected. Cain offerred to G-d an offerring of Flax. While Abel offered to G-d an animal. The symbolism is clear. Abel offerred his ANIMAL to G-d. He gave up his animal desires in service to the creator. While Cain offerre flax. Flax grows on a single stock one pod opposite the other - a symbol for duality. The creator saw that Cain wasnt interested in serving g-d but instead serving himself. hence why his offerring was rejected. The Ari says Moshe was the reincarnated soul of Abel and that the Moshiach will be the reincarnated soul of Moshe. Meaning, Abel = Moshiach. Only Abels sacrifice is worthy to the Lord. Cain, whose descendents are pagans who espouse the 'perennial philosophy' or the 'traditionalist school' like whats spouted at sacredweb.com, are destined to lose. And as the prophet say "israel will drink the blood of the nations" or, understood symbolically, Israel will inherit the work, technological advancements made by the western world. Not meaning that Israel willenslave the gentiles, but instead the gentiles will give up their fight when they realize and see with their own eyes that G-d is supporting the cause of Israel.

Than, and only than, all peoples will live in peace with each other. And hopefully by then secret orders like masonry will be disbanded.

[edit on 12-8-2010 by dontreally]

The great Torah scholar still doesn't reply to the central complaint of my post which is his ignorant association of the title "Knight of the Brazen Serpent" with paganism, when, in fact, the allusion is clearly to an event from the Hebrew Scriptures.

I think this says more than the several posts of pseudo-scholarly reply.

reply to post by dontreally


"The only truth is Torah. Because Torah is the only truth, every human being should expose himself to the wisdom of it. Everyone should study the esoteric dimension of the worlds oldest and most influential spiritual tradition."


Well, with statements like that, it's not hard to see why one would have been blackballed from joining. You see, Freemasonry has no room for such religious intolerance and bigotry.