Lawsuit Claims College Ordered Student to Alter Religious Views on Homosexuality

reply to post by endisnighe


i forgot: bringing up what the scientific world believed 30 years ago proves what exactly? Especially when they (I'm excluding any scientist funded by a religious organization) have since changed their stance to reflect new evidence. Religious dogma gives no such leeway.

reply to post by MermaidWatcher


Mermaid - You have one interesting concept of love. I'm just going to throw in the basic def from dictionary.com so I am on the same page cause I really have a hard time relating with you.

dictionary.reference.com...
~a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.
~a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend.
~sexual passion or desire.
~a person toward whom love is felt; beloved person; sweetheart.
~a love affair; an intensely amorous incident; amour.
~sexual intercourse; copulation.
~affectionate concern for the well-being of others: the love of one's neighbor.
~strong predilection, enthusiasm, or liking for anything: her love of books.
the object or thing so liked: The theater was her great love.
~the benevolent affection of god for His creatures, or the reverent affection due from them to God.

So, I'm just going with the basic English concept, it has sex/God's love/emotion/friends, all that. And my intent, truly is to communicate, not to offend, I want to be honest, that means I am being sincere and frank.
def 1
[Some one I have tender affection for]. Like my girlfriend, in a non-lustful manner. Thats tender affection right? I don't think I 'chose' that. I feel it toward her naturally.
def 2
[My daughter], or rather, if you are a mother, ask yourself this one question. When did you choose to love your child? or do you just Love your child? I never 'chose' to love my daughter. It doesn't make sense to even think those words.
def 3
[sexual passion]. again, being frank and earnest. I know I have good orgasm's and I have GOOD orgasm's, and usually that depends on my partner. I am not choosing the level of 'sexual passion', which like it or not and not by my definition, is Love.
def 4
[Beloved Person]. Your wedding day. When he said (or when he says) "I do" and before you respond, is that when you 'choose'? or is that feeling present and a part of you while you give your vows, a decision you made long before.
def 5
[SEX]. ah. the crux. this post was about Love, not lewd behavior. Again, to be frank (NOT offensive) I have never heard of any street marches against a Christian man having anal sex with his wife. Thats because he Loves her (correctly), and the church stays out of the heterosexual bedroom. If we establish Love can be between ANY two human beings, THEN we will go and change the argument to being about lewd behavior.
def 6
[Concern for the well being of others]. Ever seen a young child run into the street, or fall into a pool. That fear, that concern for them - without any family or neighborly connection, that is based upon the Love that all human beings share with each other. (It's my belief that children truly practice the least self-conscious form of it, but what'evs, thats neither here nor there)
def 7
[Books]. BOOKS, lol. wow. talk about a great, simple, example. the last book, or movie, or tv show that you love (or laughed) to watch, did you really choose to Love it? or did you just feel that way?
def 8
Lastly. And this one touches my soul in its naughty bits, it gives me butterflies. It's assumed you are 'religious' to an extent (not a judgement, but a stereotype due to the stance taken by Christianity as a whole). So, here is the bottom line; and if you respond to nothing else, please take a moment to reply to this.

Do you believe in your heart that God, or Jesus, or the Holy Spirit through a human vessel ~Chooses~ to Love you? Or do you believe that His love is unconditional? That answered, do you ~Choose~ to love God in return? Or is your love unconditional as well? And that answered, and assuming you answered to Love unconditionally to both, why would you impose or imply or assume a different standard of Love shared among His Children than that of the Love between his Children and He.

[edit on 30-7-2010 by Deeds203]

Wow, did everyone stop carring at the same time or is this pretty much, like obvious now. Or are the Christian posters waiting till Sunday afternoon to respond?

Push the love out my friends,

Regards,
Deeds203

reply to post by Deeds203


Maybe the OP finally read the article and realized what it was she was going to school for and how her belief would actually interfere and therefor realized the silliness of forcing schools to award graduation to persons refusing to adhere to a given curriculum because of religious belief. This was one of the most pointless threads on ATS of late and that is saying a lot. What is next? Someone crying about getting the boot from a cartography class because no one will accept their maps of Heaven?

There is a lot of arrogance and condescension on this thread that demonstrates a bigoted view of religious people. Various posters keep screaming (in bold and in caps) that sexual preference is NOT A CHOICE!! If that is true, why do I know at least a half dozen people who have “changed their sexual preference” more than once? Changing from straight to gay back to straight then to bisexual sounds an awful lot like a CHOICE to me. I guess these people could all be suffering some kind of brain chemistry malfunction – or they could just be changing their mind.

I really think that all of the insistence that sexual preference is NOT A CHOICE has more to do with politics, legal precedents, and constructing a new “protected class.” This “protected class” can then be used as a basis for endless lawsuits and government regulations to GET MORE MONEY. Oooo – did I say that out loud? I’m so sorry.

So back on topic, this fine young lady is caught up as another pawn in a larger political struggle. Since she is sincere in her beliefs it is likely that she would choose to work in a private religious school anyway so she is personally no real threat to anyone. The threat is that she might be able to say “No” to the liberal, academic establishment and get away with it. That, of course, would be bad for their cause and their political power so they can’t allow it to happen. It matters not to them if they crush the dreams of one poor, misguided Christian along the way.

reply to post by itguysrule


So how many gay relationships did you have before you chose to go with being straight?

reply to post by itguysrule


People who go between having heterosexual and homosexual relationships are called 'bisexual'. Think of sexuality as a spectrum. on one side is pure heterosexuality, on the other end, pure homosexuality. Peoples sexuality is somewhere on that spectrum. Then there's also asexuality - and out of curiosity, where does christianity stand on that orientation?
and no, myself and others are not bigots as you insinuate. Most of us have also stated that there are many Christians able to leave their beliefs on the coat-hook when they sit down to do their jobs. What we are reacting to is a person who is unable or unwilling to make that separation and, unfortunately, is trying to enter a profession where this would pose a problem.
Am I a bigot because I find white supremacists to be reprehensible? After all, their belief in supposed genetic superiority is just that, their *belief*. A belief they hold as truth just as strongly as people who claim homosexuality to be a choice.
your defense of 'I know you are but what am I?' holds no water.

Originally posted by Nutter
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

So, you being a gay man, would have been comfortable in your teen years to go to this "counselor" to ask for counseling? Knowing that she has stated that your condition is sinnful and a choice that you have made.

I will defend her right to her beliefs too. But not when it comes to her "counseling" others.

[edit on 28-7-2010 by Nutter]

Well come on Nutter, if you go to a person like that when you are like me, then your an idiot and deserve what you get.

It's not like the high and mighty types are hard to pick out is it? Just takes a few minutes and some general grenade questions to get them started.

People are very transparent when it comes to these sorts of issues.

In any case, her beliefs don't really affect me, and I'm sure that she would prefer to NOT work with homosexuals and that's totally her choice, so long as isn't hurting them or trying to "usurp" them, who the hell am I to tell her she's wrong?

If it effects her job because she'd be working in some sort of field where your guaranteed to get a homo a week, then fine, point 1 for the college.

Otherwise, it's like those colleges that make you loose 10 pounds before you can graduate -- a complete waste of time.

~Keeper

[edit on 8/1/2010 by tothetenthpower]

Originally posted by Adevoc Satanae
reply to post by itguysrule

 

So how many gay relationships did you have before you chose to go with being straight?

Hmmm - I don't really understand why this question has any relation to what I said, but I have no problem telling you the answer is zero. I have actually had only one relationship in my life and that is with my sweet wife. Our 30 year anniversary is later this year. Of course that has been my choice. Everyone else makes their own choices.

Originally posted by itguysrule
Hmmm - I don't really understand why this question has any relation to what I said, but I have no problem telling you the answer is zero.

Because you fraudulently put forth the idea that sexual preference is a choice. I know I PREFER chocolate ice cream to vanilla - because I know what they both taste like so I can make that choice. See the difference?

I have actually had only one relationship in my life and that is with my sweet wife. Our 30 year anniversary is later this year. Of course that has been my choice. Everyone else makes their own choices.

So when exactly did you choose to be attracted to women instead of men? Was it a tough choice to make? Do you ever think twice about it?

reply to post by tothetenthpower


What school do you believe she will be getting a job at where there will be no children with sexual identity issues? This school should be on TV to say the least, let alone be getting funding beyond believe. Please help us locate this magical school where her beliefs will match the reality coming to her in the future.

Originally posted by FuzzyDunlop
reply to post by itguysrule

 

your defense of 'I know you are but what am I?' holds no water.

Help me understand what you mean by this statement. I'm not trying to be "snarky" - I haven't heard this before.

Originally posted by Adevoc Satanae

Originally posted by itguysrule

Because you fraudulently put forth the idea that sexual preference is a choice. I know I PREFER chocolate ice cream to vanilla - because I know what they both taste like so I can make that choice. See the difference?

I have never murdered anyone but I know I don't want to do it. See the difference?

So when exactly did you choose to be attracted to women instead of men? Was it a tough choice to make? Do you ever think twice about it?

I've never met a man that held any attraction for me - but I have always been free to choose one if I wanted to.

Originally posted by itguysrule

I have never murdered anyone but I know I don't want to do it.

If you have to actively choose not to murder than you have issues far beyond anything here.

See the difference?

Yes, I see you have no idea how to form a cogent analogy.

Sexual preference presupposes there will be sexual attraction
either to girls, boys, or both.
Flavor preference presupposes there with be satiary desire for
Either one flavor or another.

How does choosing to or not to murder fit in there at all? You are going to have to help out with that one.

I've never met a man that held any attraction for me - but I have always been free to choose one if I wanted to.

I can actually picture you with your fingers in your ears now. You can choose to be attracted to men then? I cannot. I do not even understand how to begin to choose to be attracted to men. Help me understand.

The point isn't if she had the beliefs or not, but the aggressive way she was portraying them. She made it clear that she believed homosexuals should choose to change, and if you are a school counselor and you say that to a gay kid, you mess them up for life. I think the article misinterprets the college telling her to keep her beliefs to herself to her needing to 'change' her beliefs. Counselors think all sorts of things, but they need to keep their mouths shut about it, because counselors aren't there to talk to us, they're there to listen to us with an open mind and heart and to offer solutions that help the child grow, not wither. And believe me, all those 'ex gays' are not doing very much growing, which is the exact direction she would send gay teenagers.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Well come on Nutter, if you go to a person like that when you are like me, then your an idiot and deserve what you get.

Being a teenager is diferent from being an adult when it comes to being able to "choose" who our counselor's are. Think school counselor. Did you get to choose yours? I didn't.

In any case, her beliefs don't really affect me, and I'm sure that she would prefer to NOT work with homosexuals and that's totally her choice, so long as isn't hurting them or trying to "usurp" them, who the hell am I to tell her she's wrong?

So, if you, as a teen, went to a school counselor and was told by her that you are a sinner and are making a choice to go to hell, that isn't going to hurt you? And before someone says that we don't know she would do this......if she can't even "pretend" to be considerate of homosexuals while in school, do you really think she is going to change when she gets a job?

If it effects her job because she'd be working in some sort of field where your guaranteed to get a homo a week, then fine, point 1 for the college.

Most counselors don't deal with the "normal" students. So, yes, there is a high probability that she will be faced with a homo a week.

Otherwise, it's like those colleges that make you loose 10 pounds before you can graduate -- a complete waste of time.

If those students are in a curriculum of physical education then I find that the University has every right not to graduate a fat person.

On another note: Are we going to start crying when students don't earn their Master's in Cartography because they refuse to draw the earth as round?

How about if I went to school for counseling and kept saying that "A marriage is only valid if the wife is a virgin. If she is not a virgin, she shall be executed"? I bet I'd make a real great counselor correct? I bet all those pregnant teenage girls would love me, huh. Should I deserve a Master's Degree in Counseling with that attitude?

[edit on 2-8-2010 by Nutter]

reply to post by Adevoc Satanae


Hmmm - you seem to be trying to defend your position using semantics and debating techniques. Would you happen to be an attorney?

I mentioned that I did not need to murder someone to know if I wanted to do it to make the point that you do not always have to actually experience something before you can choose to do it or not. That is where intelligence figures in. I could have just as easily said I don't need to jump off of a building to find out if that would be something I liked doing.

I also notice you didn't even touch the other points of my previous post regarding political motivations and "protected classes."

Originally posted by c g henderson

Originally posted by semperfortis
Same link..

School Counseling..

I would imagine once she gets her degree, any potential employers can evaluate her and her beliefs; this is not the duty of the school...

Not sure what you are repeating what she is going to school for.

Anyway, that makes no sense. A school should graduate someone with faulty understandings of the field they are in because of religious beliefs and then let employers sort it out later?

There's your problem - "faulty understandings"; that's an opinion. Your opinion. It's not everyone's opinion. A state school should not be able to deny an individual education based on personal beliefs because that's someone else shoving their opinion on another person. If you believe what the school is doing is right then you must be a fan of segregation, which was also someone's opinion.

What is sad is that this debate is still going on...

The woman in question never said that she refuses to treat her future population without bias. She is only accused, rightfully, of holding personal beliefs on a subject. The administration is forcing her to take an additional curriculum based solely on her private beliefs, not on how she would treat a client, not on any past action against denying service to someone, but only on an expressed ideal. This student in no form claims she will force her ideas onto another. She never states that her beliefs will change how she works with another. The only group forcing their ideas upon someone is the administration towards their obvious bias.

For all those who say she should this, or she should that, really need to ask if they are accepting of free choice of expression or wish to force their ideas on another. By treating this woman differently from others, presents an intolerance that seems to be what is being argued against.

I'm pulled both ways on this. On the one hand, as a free citizen she is entitled to hold whatever moral and religious beliefs she believes are right.

The sticking point comes when a state university, funded with state monies, is asked to officially credential a person to practice in a given profession where that profession requires an established set of standards for objectivity, impartiality, and ethics that she does not meet.

As a practical solution, I would suggest the young woman go and get her credentials from a privately funded religious college or university. There her views would not be in conflict with others' and her degree would inform employers and potential clients of her particular moral and religious persuasion, giving them a choice in whether to be treated by her or not.

When a university credentials a person they are in effect giving their official affirmation of that person's fitness to practice. There is a reputation that must be upheld as well as an obligation to that profession that must be maintained.

[edit on 2-8-2010 by Sestias]