Lawsuit Claims College Ordered Student to Alter Religious Views on Homosexuality

Psychiatry, psychology, counseling and social problem solutions as a science.

Hell, every couple years they change their stance on things when they are proven wrong.

I remember back 20 years my Keynesian professor in Macro Economics and I were always getting into arguments on the government messing with the free market.

Hmmmm, looks like the student knew more than the professor.

Now, this situation is different but I find the same people here, I BET, would be screaming about the separation of Church and State. AM I WRONG?

But now, someone that believes one thing HAS TO change their beliefs that do not jive with the STATE ran school.

I find this typical of statism run amok. Do not believe what we want you to believe? Well than you do not get your accreditation. TYPICAL.

reply to post by endisnighe

But now, someone that believes one thing HAS TO change their beliefs that do not jive with the STATE ran school.

Is that so? Please, show me something (besides what the student claims) where the department demands she HAS TO change her belief?

Read the remediation agreement... that she originally AGREED to.

Dang, feel like I'm beating a dead horse...

reply to post by LadySkadi


Now that I have read through the Complaint, which of course is only one sided, I think she has a hell of a case.

Just substitute someone that did not believe in say abortion. They even brought that up as an analogy in one of the meetings. Let us say someone talked about it in class or out of class and the professors, wanted the person to go and watch some abortions and take some courses on abortion, or whatever this 2nd component of the remediation encompasses.

IMO, this sounds like she is going to be taught that her beliefs are wrong and if she does not agree she would go no further in their program. As she had stated she would be able to set aside her personal beliefs when regarding patients or clients-whatever.

Just as I am a VERY Spiritual person and find abortion abhorrent, but being a Libertarian also, I never foist my Spiritual beliefs on others. That is another abhorrent thing to me. I may try and talk some sense into people, of course I am not a counselor.

I reiterate my point of earlier, sounds like to me, that this is because of her beliefs and has nothing to do with her ability to set aside those beliefs. IMO it has actually to do with the professor's beliefs.

But, I will hold further opinion unless a rebuttal can be supplied by the school and professors.

I use to go to the parties where the profs all went, they were more stimulating than beer bongs of my day. One thing I did find that profs get in their head that nothing else matters beyond their own beliefs. One example was one prof got all mad when several others and I were talking about sibling rivalry. He went off on how that was just a waste of breath and a couple more things, not very diplomatic I may say. One of my friends on the staff quippingly said, Single Child?

reply to post by endisnighe

This sounds reasonable and perhaps it has something to do with a professor as well, but I have a hard time believing that an entire department would agree to remediation, were it not warranted. Perhaps we should all reserve judgement until further info. becomes available. I admit, I'm getting tired (getting late here) and need to take a break from posting before they become unintelligible. So, I'm out for now...

One example was one prof got all mad when several others and I were talking about sibling rivalry. He went off on how that was just a waste of breath and a couple more things, not very diplomatic I may say. One of my friends on the staff quippingly said, Single Child?

_________________________________
*Now, hopefully I can ressurect my (new but neglected and now dead) thread, tomorrow. Fingers crossed. Lol.


[edit on 29-7-2010 by LadySkadi]

Originally posted by c g henderson

Originally posted by semperfortis
Same link..

School Counseling..

I would imagine once she gets her degree, any potential employers can evaluate her and her beliefs; this is not the duty of the school...

Not sure what you are repeating what she is going to school for.

Anyway, that makes no sense. A school should graduate someone with faulty understandings of the field they are in because of religious beliefs and then let employers sort it out later?

No, her understandings are not shown to be faulty. Her beliefs are not what you would like.

I hope this gets appealed all the way up to the US Supreme Court. They would smack this school down so hard ...

Originally posted by endisnighe
IMO, this sounds like she is going to be taught that her beliefs are wrong and if she does not agree she would go no further in their program.

They are wrong and if she is not willing to understand that, she should go no further in the program. It is real nice to have your religious beliefs and all but sometimes they get in the way. If you think the Earth is 6000 years old, super. You should not be allowed a master's degree in a geology program though because that belief is wrong. If you believe AIDS is caused solely by immorality then golly gosh that us just super. You should not be allowed an associates in phys ed, let along anything higher in any medical or biology field. If you believe homosexuality is a choice then that is all cute and nice and fuzzy and great. You should not be granted a master's in any therapy fields, especially anything dealing with children who would be most vulnerable to the confusion caused by the fact that their sexuality is indeed NOT A CHOICE. Sorry, her belief is actually wrong. The earth is not flat and leeches do not cure mental illness. If you want to believe it, believe it. Do not expect schools to just graduate you in programs based on contradictory knowledge.

If she really wants to hold steadfast to he belief that sexuality is a choice then she can just get her degree from the same place any good creationist would.

[edit on 29-7-2010 by Adevoc Satanae]

reply topost by drmeola

Explantion: Uhhm?

So in my opinion all homo’s are devil worshipers, because only the book of blood excepts this, not even Wicca or any other witch craft cults except this practice of man on man.

:shk: EPIC FAIL!!! Here is why...

Apollo (male lovers) [wiki]

Hyacinth (or Hyacinthus) was one of his male lovers. Hyacinthus was a Spartan prince, beautiful and athletic. The pair were practicing throwing the discus when a discus thrown by Apollo was blown off course by the jealous Zephyrus and struck Hyacinthus in the head, killing him instantly. Apollo is said to be filled with grief: out of Hyacinthus' blood, Apollo created a flower named after him as a memorial to his death, and his tears stained the flower petals with άί άί, meaning alas. The Festival of Hyacinthus was a celebration of Sparta.

Another male lover was Cyparissus, a descendant of Heracles. Apollo gave him a tame deer as a companion but Cyparissus accidentally killed it with a javelin as it lay asleep in the undergrowth. Cyparissus asked Apollo to let his tears fall forever. Apollo granted the request by turning him into the Cypress named after him, which was said to be a sad tree because the sap forms droplets like tears on the trunk.

Hyacinth (mythology) [wiki]

In the literary myth, Hyacinth was a beautiful young man and lover of the god Apollo , though he was also admired by West Wind, Zephyr. Apollo and Hyacinth took turns throwing the discus. Hyacinth ran to catch it to impress Apollo, was struck by the discus as it fell to the ground, and died. A twist in the tale makes the wind god Zephyrus responsible for the death of Hyacinth. His beauty caused a feud between Zephyrus and Apollo. Jealous that Hyacinth preferred the radiant archery god Apollo, Zephyrus blew Apollo's discus off course, so as to injure and kill Hyacinth. When he died, Apollo didn't allow Hades to claim the young man; rather, he made a flower, the hyacinth, from his spilled blood. According to Ovid's account, the tears of Apollo stained the newly formed flower's petals with ai, ai, the sign of his grief. The flower of the mythological Hyacinth has been identified with a number of plants other than the true hyacinth, such as the iris.

Amykles [wiki]

About the same time [8th Century BC], there was erected at Amyklai the Sanctuary of Apollo, enclosing within its temenos the tumulus of Hyakinthos, a pre-Hellene divinity whose cult was conflated with that of Apollo, in the annual festival of the Hyakinthia.

Hyacinthia [wiki]

The Hyacinthia was a major Spartan holiday. Xenophon, in the Hellenics IV, 5, 11, reports that the Spartans interrupted their campaigns in order to be able to return to Laconia so as to participate. Pausanias writes that they even negotiated a truce especially for this purpose. According to Thucydides, upon the peace of Nicias, Athens, in order to prove its good will towards Sparta, promised to assist at the celebrations.

Bacchanalia [wiki]

In Empires of Trust: How Rome Built—And America Is Building—A New World by Thomas Madden, the author cites the words of a Roman investigative consul in his report to the Roman Senate:

there was no crime, no deed of shame, wanting. More uncleanness was committed by men with men than with women. Whoever would not submit to defilement, or shrank from violating others, was sacrificed as a victim. To regard nothing as impious or criminal was the sum total of their religion. The men, as though seized with madness and with frenzied distortions of their bodies, shrieked out prophecies; the matrons, dressed as Bacchae, their hair disheveled, rushed down to the Tiber River with burning torches, plunged them into the water, and drew them out again, the flame undiminished because they were made of sulfur mixed with lime. Men were fastened to a machine and hurried off to hidden caves, and they were said to have been taken away by the gods. These were the men who refused to join their conspiracy or take part in their crimes or submit to their pollution.

Scared Prostitution [wiki]

In the Hebrew Bible, (קדשה) Qedesha or Kedeshah, derived from the root Q-D-Š were temple prostitutes usually associated with the goddess Astarte.
The male equivalent of a qedesha is a qadesh.

The meaning of the male form kadesh or qadesh is not entirely clear. Some early English translations, following the Greek porneuon, rendered it as a "whoremonger" - i.e. a prostitute-seller or pimp; but it may have been a closer analogue of kedeshah, i.e. a male cultic attendant, apparently again with some sexual implication, hence the King James translation as "sodomite". Many recent translations simply say "cult prostitute". The Hebrew word keleb (dog) in the next line may also signify a male dancer or prostitute, perhaps a transvestite or eunuch. The cuneiform sign UR.SAL for assinnu (a male devotee of Ishtar who took on feminine characteristics) means both "dog" and "man/woman"; while in Greek the word kinaidos ("dog-like"; Latin cinaedus) was used for men who were flamboyantly effeminate and behaved as though they were on heat for homosexual advances. In the New Testament the word "dog" may have a similar meaning at Revelation 22:15. The kadeshim are also mentioned four times in the Books of Kings (1 Kings 14:24, 15:12, 22:46; 2 Kings 23:7), when they evidently rose to some prominence, until purged by Jahwist revivalist kings such as Jehoshaphat and Josiah. Again, ancient translations vary. At 1 Kings 15:12 the Septuagint hellenises them as teletai - personifications of the presiding spirits at the initiation rites of the Bacchic orgies. Aquila at all four instances translates them as endiellagmenoi ("changed ones"), while the Vulgate of St. Jerome renders them as effeminati.

Central and South America
The Mayans maintained several phallic religious cults, possibly involving homosexual temple prostitution. Aztec religious leaders were heterosexually celibate and engaged in homosexuality with one another as a religious practice, temple idols were often depicted engaging in homosexuality, and the god Xochipili (taken from both Toltec and Mayan cultures) was both the patron of homosexuals and homosexual prostitutes. The Inca sometimes dedicated young boys as temple prostitutes. The boys were dressed in girls clothing, and chiefs and headmen would have ritual homosexual intercourse with them during religious ceremonies and on holidays.

Qadesh (disambiguatioon) [wiki]

Qadesh, a male practitioner of sacred prostitution, translated in the King James Bible as sodomite.

Religious Roots of the Taboo on Homosexuality (by John Lauritsen) [atheisme.ca]

The Taboo in Historical Perspective

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For analytical purposes, the taboo is easier to see in historical perspective than is homosexuality itself. Whereas homosexual love has been practised in all societies of which we have record, and among all classes and types of people, the taboo on homosexuality is an historical variable. ...antihomosexual attitudes and practices are limited in space and time, and derive from particular moral traditions. These moral traditions are in accord with specific forms of social and economic organization. The taboo on homosexuality is therefore not an eternal feature of human society, but a transitory historical phenomenon.

The history of the taboo is essentially a history of religion. The taboo, as we shall see, is a theological conception of Judeo-Christianity.

Homosexuality flourished throughout the ancient world: among the Scandinavians, Greeks, Celts, Sumerians, and throughout the "Cradle of Civilization", the Tigris-Euphrates Valley, the Nile Valley, and the Mediterranean Basin. The art and literature of these peoples offer testimony to an unhindered acceptance and often exhaltation of same-sex love. At this time, there were not "homosexuals" (as a noun), only homosexual acts. Nowhere is there evidence that anyone was set apart as different from his fellow men, even semantically, because of engaging in homosexual acts.

LGBT topics and Wicca [wiki]

Throughout most branches of Wicca, all sexual orientations including homosexuality are considered healthy and positive, provided that individual sexual relationships are healthy and loving.

How Do Pagans Feel About Homosexuality? [paganwiccan.about.com]

Much like other issues, you'll often find that Pagans and Wiccans are very accepting of homosexuality. That's due in no small part to the fact that a lot of Pagans and Wiccans figure it's none of their business who someone else loves. There also tends to be support of the idea that acts of love, pleasure and beauty are sacred -- no matter which adults happen to be participating.

Personal Disclosure:

reply to post by Adevoc Satanae


Yep, as I said earlier in the thread, those economics professors were ALL correct in their theories too, RIGHT?

Sounds like to me our country is creating academic re-education camps to me.

As for your strawman argument on the age of the earth, what does that have to do with the price of uranium 232 in Iran?


edit to fix firefox renaming academic to pandemic

[edit on 7/29/2010 by endisnighe]

Originally posted by oniongrass
No, her understandings are not shown to be faulty. Her beliefs are not what you would like.

It does not matter what anyone likes in this instance. Her belief is directly tied to an education that teaches the fact that her belief is incorrect, which it is.

I hope this gets appealed all the way up to the US Supreme Court. They would smack this school down so hard ...

Yes, we should waste as much tax payer money as possible so that she can be given a degree she did not ear do to special religious understanding. I am sure that will sound great until he Muslim classmate tries the same thing.

This has nothing to do with re-education. I side with the school because it was obvious (and she made it so) that a belief she held would not allow her to practice counseling in a fair manor. The fact is homosexuality is not a choice and the view that homophobia is acceptable is going the way of the acceptability of racism. As it should.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by endisnighe


This was going along a race tact for a while and I like you initiail opener about psychology and social solutions. To save space I'm going to quote a para. Of a (to my mind) some what related post, that is one trapped by their 'Identity' pls click the link and response with criticize and constructive criticism. I am trying to refine the thought itself .
Had something I spend an hour or so writing today, didn't begin writing about it, but it ended up running toward that slave identity you mentioned. I don't know if you'll like it or agree with it, but I know that aside from it being my experience, I had thought of you and your essay/you are not your Ikea lamp essay. It more centers on Slave Identity and Slave Culture in the African American sense. I was wondering if Black people within this model fit into this paradigm of yours (cause it seemed a little suburban america, a little to dotcom/soccermom, not to insult, i am genuinely interested to hear your thoughts. 
Regards
Deeds203

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by endisnighe


This was going along a race tact for a while and I like you initiail opener about psychology and social solutions. To save space I'm going to quote a para. Of a (to my mind) some what related post, that is one trapped by their 'Identity' pls click the link and response with criticize and constructive criticism. I am trying to refine the thought itself .
Had something I spend an hour or so writing today, didn't begin writing about it, but it ended up running toward that slave identity you mentioned. I don't know if you'll like it or agree with it, but I know that aside from it being my experience, I had thought of you and your essay/you are not your Ikea lamp essay. It more centers on Slave Identity and Slave Culture in the African American sense. I was wondering if Black people within this model fit into this paradigm of yours (cause it seemed a little suburban america, a little to dotcom/soccermom, not to insult, i am genuinely interested to hear your thoughts. 
Regards
Deeds203

Thread is titled "Why America is all about Control/Conformity, not Truth/Freedom" posted by WWu777. Maybe try again for me? I just came up with some further insight...but thats another story.

[edit on 29-7-2010 by Deeds203]

Let's do a thought exercise as a kind of reality check to try and uncover any possible bias by the university and/or people on this thread.

Suppose this same student had the opposite belief - that homosexuality was the norm and that straight people were only that way due to choice they had consciously made.

What would the university be saying to her then?

What would the peopple on this thread that support the university's actions be saying?

Personally, I think the university would be looking the other way and there would be no call for remediation. I also think that many here supporting the university would be saying that this woman has a right to her own opinions and beliefs - because it supports their own.

Of course, that sort of "logic" would be hypocritical and grossly unfair.

For people on this thread that think people cannot set aside their own beliefs for the benefit or rights of others, you have no clue.

I could really tell you what I think about people that believe in abortion. On par with a couple evil people of the past. I could sit here and preach holier than thou on you. But I don't because it is your choice.

If I can set aside my views and give you your choices, why can this person not do it?

Let me ask this again, why can this person not do it?

Maybe those judging should actually look inward at their own selves and see their own bigotry. I recognize it in myself, maybe some think they are without prejudices.

Well, I think not.

reply to post by endisnighe


I think the issue here isn't that she has the beliefs she does (it's a shame she holds such patently ridiculous views regarding homosexuality, but that's her business)... It's the fact that her beliefs and views are a conflict with the field she wishes to go into (making the assumption that she a) wants to counsel in a public school/setting and b)will bring her beliefs to work)
As a counsellor it doesn't matter if she believes that homosexuality is caused by an invisible pink unicorn named Steve. If she's counseling a teenager or youth that is going through a crisis regarding sexual orientation or gender identity that THE TEENAGER doesn't feel is a choice, then she must be able to counsel and advise them based on THEIR feelings, not HERS.
She has shown an unwillingness to broaden her views, even if only for and limited to the scope of profession, and this disqualifies her for counseling in the public environment, where there is (supposed to be) a separation of church and state.

If I were to apply to a course at a Christian college, as an agnostic, that specifically taught on the basis of Christian faith = fact, that school would have every right to tell me that my beliefs, or lack of, doesn't mesh with what they teach and that I need to either make an attempt to learn on the basis of what they teach... or leave.

Should we hire police officers who openly and admittedly believe all black people to be criminals, and will not change that belief? of course not, it negatively impacts their ability to do the job.

*edit. flubbed a contraction. It... forgot the 's


[edit on 29-7-2010 by FuzzyDunlop]

reply to post by FuzzyDunlop


You were doing fine on your comment til you got here.

Should we hire police officers who openly and admittedly believe all black people to be criminals, and will not change that belief? of course not, it negatively impacts their ability to do the job.

That is an analogy that is not compatible or even relevant. Racism compared to Religious conviction.

Now, only 30 years ago, psychiatrists actually held the same belief she was talking about. Gender something, cannot remember, but like I said, I can set my beliefs aside for the society I believe to be the best possible society available. Libertarianism.

Why cannot someone else set aside their beliefs to enter a profession.

Yes, people will disagree with me by stating they are incompatible, but then explain my position? Please, they are almost the exact same thing.

I cannot explain it anymore than that. The instant though that a STATE funded organization decides because of someone's religious beliefs that they cannot get an accreditation from that school.

That school should be shut down immediately. Period.

Or, does the school paid for by the people not have to follow this-

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Or is the separation of Church and State null and void now? And boy I hope someone states this is not relevant.

Once that 1st amendment is broken, all bets are off.

reply to post by semperfortis


Yes. It is the job of the school to decide if they should certify her based on her acceptance of their curriculum.

If I take a degree in physics and refuse to learn what I am taught, then guess what? They dont have to give me a degree. That degree is not my right. It is something I EARN by learning what they teach me to THEIR satisfaction.

She should have chosen a different school if she did not want to follow the curriculum at that one. There are religious schools, she could have gotten their degree. Employers take a degree as an assurance that you have learned certain things, and if she hasnt, too bad for her. No degree.

Originally posted by endisnighe

Why cannot someone else set aside their beliefs to enter a profession.

Many people do. I know Christian biologists who teach evolution. Fairly.

If this young lady is being expelled, it is not because they have found out in some furtive way that she wears a cross. It is because her beliefs are so strong that she cannot set them aside and accept the curriculum being taught to her. She doesnt have to believe homosexuality is whatever the school says it is, but she DOES need to be able to maintain her professionalism when dealing with those she is counseling to get that school to agree to certify her as a counselor.


A degree is not a right. You earn it. By displaying professionalism, both academically and by your behavior, in the field of study you choose to take. If she cannot do that, they she should be expelled from the program. Period.

Sad that many refuse to accept the fact that there is no evidence, including scientific that sexuality is a choice. All you have to do is remember that who you love is also a choice, and for those of you who don't know the difference between love and lust, you've definitely got problems. Still offended? Then if you want to be consistent and logical, the idea of marriage should also offend homosexuals and the ones who are trying to make homosexual marriage legal, should stop, because the idea of marriage requires that you suppress your sexual desires for anyone other than the person you are married to. Logic.

reply to post by endisnighe


I'm not comparing Racism to Religion. I'm comparing bigotry based on race to bigotry based on sexual orientation. Perhaps the imaginary potential officer I made up to illustrate my point is racist due to his/her religious beliefs. After all, the arguments being presented by the homophobic right (completely separate from the non-homophobic right) are the exact same as the arguments that were used by people who were opposed to desegregation.

Dismissing homosexuality as 'a choice' is bigotry, and gussying it up as a matter of 'personal faith and belief' doesn't change that fact. I don't think many, if any, people would 'choose' something that would make them the target of hate crimes or being disowned by their families.