Some of the Excellent Dining in Gaza.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

I know its difficult. I suggest you at least go to West Bank then. That should be no problem and just as revealing.

Your whole argument is "I've been there. You haven't. My opinion is correct." And "They can't be doing that bad, they have a restaurant. And a pool."

You may say it is fact, not opinion. But the fact is, it is opinion to us. That's why, despite your insistence, we are more likely to believe independent, unbiased reports (from the like of Red Cross) rather than you. I make no apologies for this.

Edit: It is almost a strawman argument to say that we can have no opinion, and know nothing because we haven't been there, as you have. ATS generally runs on proof. Currently there is more proof to say that there is not enough aid, and that living conditions aren't all rosy, rather than to the contrary. I wish you would show us your photos, which were taken before operation cast lead so may prove nothing anyway.

[edit on 11/6/10 by GobbledokTChipeater]

reply to post by GobbledokTChipeater

You're assuming that someone who receives aid is 100% dependent on the aid to eat. What you're leaving out is the fact that lots of food is grown in Gaza, and they buy food from Israel.


Here's the real shocker that will surprise some here. Gaza actually wants to export large amounts of food.

Gaza exports food.

reply to post by dbates


'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger'

Dov Weisglass, adviser to Ehud Olmert, 2008.

"An army marches on it's stomach" Napoleon.

The real point is that if the terrorists and the supporters of terrorism in Gaza are weakened by denying adequate nutrition then their capacity to murderously threaten peace loving Israelis will be diminished. Malnutrition will also lower the birth rate and shorten life expectancy which is of strategic benefit to both Israel and America in the long term war on terror. The white phosphorus can be used to finish them off when they are weakened.

The terrorist supporting "aid" flotilla providing food and medicine only serves to strengthen these murderous brutes, this is why they must be stopped. The way you highlight the fine dining available in Gaza is a superb tactic & presents good visual evidence to help justify the Israeli sponsored "dieting"! Well done Sir.

reply to post by dbates


On February 12th, 2009, Gaza was allowed to export 25,000 blooms of carnations to europe for valentines day. It was the first export israel allowed them in a year. Before the blockade they exported about 40 million flowers a year. *


reply to post by Lionel


I appreciate your evidence to the contrary of what dbates and skyfloating are saying.

But, with all due respect, I hope one day you are forcefully starved, and just as you are about to die of hunger someone flash-fries you with white phosphorus. People like you really bring out the worst in me.

reply to post by GobbledokTChipeater



www.daylife.com...

have a look at these pictures then since the word of another member is not good enough, looks like a good amount of food to me.

also read this page, it is not from jpost or haartz

www.jihadwatch.org...

So the aid is so essential yet the hamas refuses to allow it on principles? yeah right.

www.fas.org...

regarding aid into palestine, again, this is very detailed report from the US congress, it seems to be pretty generous and it does not include aid from other sources. seems like mostly cash as well.

another very interesting write up on how the palestinians may be facing more poverty and ddespair due to the hamas.

www.forbes.com...

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by Tgautier13

 

Provided the Palestinain wealth is not connected to Israeli wealth

The wealth of all nations that participate in international trade is connected, however the Israeli/Gaza connection is definitely unique. Perhaps not through trade they are connected, but through diplomacy.

and everything coming from Israeli sources is Propaganda,

True enough in my mind, I have nothing at all against the Israeli people but over the years of research I have learned to distrust their government and what propaganda they spew.

whereas everything coming from Palestine Sources is not (as a poster on the first page said),

I was not this poster, but I definitely do not at all agree with this standpoint. Of course Hamas is heavily involved in propaganda warfare, how could you not be when your enemy has mastered the craft? Where you must look to is the free independent press for your information here, and sadly they all paint a gloomy picture of the state of affairs in that region.

you can still concede that International Aid to Palestine is high enough.

High enough?!

What are you implying? That a country on the wrong end of an aggressive ongoing blockade for the past three years going is receiving ample amounts of aid? Here is a quote for you:

The ILO report says 75 percent of the population is food dependant and 70 percent of the population lives under the poverty line of $1 a day.

New ILO report on the situation of workers in the occupied Arab territories

This International Labour Orginization report was issued yesterday. Here is a good article you should read describing the tunnel systems Gaza has begun to rely on.

You say it is not time to make light of what is happening down there. Im saying it is high time to show a more balanced picture of what happens down there.

As do I, however if this is truly your motive, you are either being intellectually dishonest as I have stated earlier or you are posting disinformation. I choose to believe the former since you are a moderator and have earned a place of respect amongst the members of this community, plus I have stated in the past I enjoy your threads and what you bring to these forums.

You or dbates cannot reasonably give the names of one high end restaraunt and one country club and then say this is the standard of living in Gaza. As I have said earlier of course there is a propserous heart to the community in that region, this the norm wherever you travel. The wealth is concentrated in pocket locations.

The UN has decreed Israel has committed crimes against humanity on the Gaza population. Crimes against humanity. You nor I can fathom what it is truly like to live 24/7 in a place subjugated to this kind of strain.

There is very simple reasoning behind my posting here:

I was there. I saw it. Now I am here. And I look at Google-Images on "Palestine" and I realize: Oh my God, thats completely distorted.

Perhaps you had the benefit of traveling there during more peaceful times. I am not going to sit here and interrogate you over when you went there, but I can almost certainly say you have not been there recently. When I say recently, I mean in the past 7 years minimum, quite possible longer then that. I do not care for what happened or what the state of affairs was in Gaza so many years ago. They are in trouble now and they need our love and support and prayers now.

Distorted. Limbs flying around all over the place is not what you will experience when you visit Palestine.

Unfortunately I cannot visit Palestine currently as I am not a fully accredited journalist or an aid/human rights worker, and would unlikely be given permission to travel into Gaza by the Embassy in Israel.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Masters of the Links

You guys are the masters of Links, digging up whatever is suitable to bolster your Position. You can find any link you want, supporting any side you want. Its meaningless. The only meaningful truth is the truth you experience directly and see with your own eyes.

You cant fool me, folks - not with a Million Links

Then unless you plan on taking us all on a field trip, it seems you just told us why everything you are posting is just as worthless as what you are dismissing, no?

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by evil incarnate

 

What Im saying with that list is that Ive seen muslims party in each and every of those countries. And then there are some that dont. Turkey is the most partisome, in my experience, while Qatar is the most reserved. Some youth throw illegal-parties in Dubai where they drink alcohol and consume drugs. They dont want to get caught by their parents though.

[edit on 11-6-2010 by Skyfloating]

Kind of what I thought. What you are trying to say with that list is that things are a certain way while reluctantly having to admit it is not really that way, just some folks are and some are not. Sounds like anywhere else to me.

However, drinking and doing drugs? Really? With Muslims? Big steak dinner on Friday with the Catholics before running off to a Jewish pig roast?

Something about your story seems a bit disconnected here.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by rationaluser
Perhaps you could elaborate on your viewpoint that everyone is well fed considering that most of the population is unemployed

That is not a viewpoint, that is a fact. If you're looking for starvation, look at Africa.

So now it is a fact that there is no one starving over there? Your trip must have been quite thourough as I cannot even say that about my homeland and not from personal experience. I just know there are starving people everywhere, that is a fact. Do you actually have something that backs up this "fact" you so boldly claim? It does seem quite complete.

Originally posted by Skyfloating


Not at all. Its a one hour drive from West Bank to Gaza.

It takes me 11 minutes to walk from the outside of Wendy Prison. Do you really thing that only being 11 minutes apart, life is quite well represented the same on both sides?

The reason I ask is that all direct questions to you seem to end up dead on the floor in a pool of vague non-answers. The poster made the point that the places are different, not about how close they are to each other. Your answer does not even remotely address what was said or the point of it. All you do is give distance that can be measured on a map. A one hour drive means nothing.

Come to my home. We can go to a really nice restaraunt - many many many restaraunts, not just one. I have a nice home with several nice beds and you can sleep in one. I can even supply you with the types of Muslim drigs and alcohol you seem to enjoy. We will have a grand old time. You will be welcome to take all the pictures you want. In fact, I will take them too so that they can actually get posted to prove they happened. I see that is causing you some issues.

Then, after you have sufficiently assessed and documented the wonderful living condition in my area, we will take a little drive, ok? You do seem quite interested in diversity of culture so I am sure you will want to embark on the kind of sociological discoveries that may open your eyes to the false dochotomy presented by some arbitrary drive time.

We can drive for 20 minutes. No more, no less. That is even closer than an hour so...

Given your logic that an hour drive will not take you from one type of environment to one completely adverse to it, you will want to get out and find the nice restaraunts and warm beds. If you happen to survive, you can explain the logic that it must have been exactly the same there as here, it was only a 20 minute drive.

Seem fair?

When were you in Gaza, exactly? And how did you get in?

Thats private.

Why would the when be private? I would think a time table for your point of reference would go a long way to illuminate the truths you are trying so hard to get out. Would giving a month and year really give away private information?

reply to post by vox2442


You and pretty much everypne else here knows by now that Skyfloating is lying. Everything he's said so far with regards to conditions in Gaza is word for word identical to numerous releases from the State of Israel. Gaza itself has been closed to foreigners for nearly a decade now (effectively closed for the first halgf, legally closed for the second) and if Skyfloating were part of some group like the Vice guys who regularly sneak into such closed areas, we would have some video or photographic evidence of it already In fact that would be a hell of a scoop, come to think of it.

reply to post by evil incarnate


Uh, he's actually spot on the money there. Dubai, Beirut, Alexandria, and Kuwait City are all sort of like Las Vegas, if Las Vegas were the getaway for people who lived under puritanical religious regimes. Similarly, Kandahar in Afghanistan has a thriving gay prostitution industry, to say nothing of all the opium and heroin through the country as a whole.

Being a muslim doesn't mean that you follow the "rules" any more than being a Catholic or Jew or Buddhist does.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by evil incarnate

 

Uh, he's actually spot on the money there. Dubai, Beirut, Alexandria, and Kuwait City are all sort of like Las Vegas, if Las Vegas were the getaway for people who lived under puritanical religious regimes. Similarly, Kandahar in Afghanistan has a thriving gay prostitution industry, to say nothing of all the opium and heroin through the country as a whole.

Same reading comprehension problem as skyfloating, I see.

Being a muslim doesn't mean that you follow the "rules" any more than being a Catholic or Jew or Buddhist does.

No, it does not. Unfortunately nothing you said changes what I said, what I asked, and why I believe it. From your response it is clear you answered in haste. I understand the emotional level of the conversation but believe me, I am just here to learn. I have no agenda, no preconcieved notions about the ideas being presented by the OP. That is not to say I am wholly ignornant of reality. It is bad enough when the OP responds in a manner demonstrated that lack of attention to detail required to properly address words actually written, but if other random folks want to jump in and engage as well, I will just ignore you. Thanks anyway.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by vox2442

 

You and pretty much everypne else here knows by now that Skyfloating is lying. Everything he's said so far with regards to conditions in Gaza is word for word identical to numerous releases from the State of Israel.

Which ones? Can you post links to them for us? Can you show me which words match? Why are you not upset about such blatant plagiarism?

reply to post by Skyfloating


There are two sides to every coin. The Roots Club and its high end clientele and the rest of the Gaza area .

No I haven't been to the occupied lands . But other poverty stricken areas I have . You can have a ritzy restaurant severing 500 year old wine caviar and the best food the world has to offer and 12 blocks away people dig threw the trash for a scrap of food to stay alive . Heck we have tent cities here in the USA . Children and old folks starving in US cities rural areas and the reservations . And we have some of the best restaurants and some great 5 star motels also .

I am sure Gaza is no different than other areas in distress of the past . Truck loads of food pour in to Gaza like it did to Rwanda Ethiopia Somalia Angola ect . The local war lords get the first pick of all the good the fresh produce the best . The seconds and whats left is distributed to the ones in favor with the war lord the ones who are not in favor of the warlords are S out of luck . One friend on his mission every aid truck boat or plane that arrived local militia /warlord required 1/2 of the food and all the medicine. To get the medicine he had to have cases of good scotch whiskey delivered or no medicine. I am sure Hamas is no different .


I personally feel that Hamas and Israel play too many heavy handed political games with each other and the world .


You could be correct with part of the Palestinian lands. But to every fancy city there is a starving underbelly somewhere .

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
everypne else here knows by now that Skyfloating is lying.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
Skyfloating, every time I see you post, I'm reminded that ATS must have some terribly low standards for making people moderators.

The reason you have to resort to personal attacks instead of refuting the idea being presented is because you dont have the ability to discuss rationally, with logic and calm. This is a matter of education but also of upbringing.

Disrespect of other people is what started this conflict in the first place and as much respect as I try to bring forth to the suffering of Palestinians but also to the suffering of the Israeli population, its difficult maintaining good Communication when talking to the inept.

My statement from the very beginning of this thread was:

"Gaza is not as bad as presented in the media"


My reasoning for doing so has been three trips to Palestine between 2000 and 2009. On one of these trips I had the opportunity to have a guided tour of Gaza as well. What I witnessed there was not much different from the WestBank which I had gotten to know better.

The images you find on Google (for example) and in the news have nothing to do with what I saw which is failry nice cars, fairly decent houses, fairly clean streets, nice beaches, fairly nice hotels, fairly nice markets.
These are FACTS that can be verified by doing your own looking. They stand today as realities, regardless of your objections.

I will certainly not post any private information, pictures or plane tickets. My reason for doing so is because the type of person being dealt with in these issues is dangerous. The last time I particiapted in a thread of this nature (the one linked by deccal on the first page) I did receve death threats.

The basic method of those opposed to any alternative view lies in attempted character-assasination, as evidenced by attacks such as these:

"disinfo agent"

"you delete my threads to hide the truth about palestine"

"you are IDFf"

"liar"

"zionists control all the worlds media"

"you are the secret owner of this site"

I hold no grudge against you guys. You believe what you believe, based on what you are taught.

But at the same time you must learn that if we cant create a way of relating to each other with civility on a small scale, we cant expect Governments to do so. The solution starts with you and being willing to calm down and think before posting.

"Is there the slightest chance in the world that he does some travelling and that he simply passionately believes what he is saying? Is there the slightest chance that he has not a Mossad agent?"

I repeat that I expect nobody to believe me. I merely offer the idea for consideration:

Media Sensationalizes and Distorts.

This is done to sell papers and ad-clicks and solicit pity.

You probably agree with this except when it comes to the stuff you are trying to defend. But there are no exceptions.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
...as much respect as I try to bring forth to the suffering of Palestinians but also to the suffering of the Israeli population...

How exactly are the Israelis suffering? I've already shown how ineffective the rocket attacks are, how insignificant the deaths and injuries are from them, how over-hyped they are by the Israeli propaganda ministry.

What other suffering do the Palestinians inflict upon the Israelis? Will you say suicide bombers?

In the period 2000-2007 Israel killed three times as many Palestinian civilians, including nearly 1000 children, as the Palestinians killed Israeli civilians in terror related attacks.

www.btselem.org...

Israel suffering? I don't think so. But they sure want the world to believe they are.

[edit on 12-6-2010 by TheComte]

reply to post by TheComte


Your view of reality is that there is an oppressor and an oppressed and that who is who is clear-cut.

According to this Ideology its not the ones calling for an eradication of Israel who are the oppresors, but those who happen to have more money.

There are people who do not share your views - as staggering as that may be to you.

But these are topics for other threads and other times.

The topic of this thread is most obviously: What is life like in Gaza?

So what do you think: What is life like in Gaza?

Do you think people drive cars there?

Go shopping?

Go dining?

Go to the Beach?

Go dancing?

Or do they drag limbs and throw rocks all day?



[edit on 12-6-2010 by Skyfloating]