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Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

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posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 01:52 PM
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reply to post by guohua
 


Operation Wetback .. lmao, so politically incorrect. It was roughly 1 million deported, not 13 million.

Antonia: Us Steel was destroyed by ............. Unions. It still has never kicked off because of ......... Unions. And environmentalist. And just because there is a tariff, doesn't mean the Chinese cannot still beat our prices, which they do, with their extensive and ever expanding mining operations and slave labor in China and now in Africa.

But anyways commodities like Steel run on a Global scale.. like Concrete, or Oil. The fluctuations will always be relative to demand, but it will almost always follow suit across the world.. if steel prices rise, they increase in Europe and Asia as well. Protectionism is not intended to regulate price so much as it's meant to regulate source. But surely you knew that with economics 101 or what ever you took. Have you seen the thread about Progressives not understanding economics?




posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 01:56 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by guohua
 

Protectionism is not intended to regulate price so much as it's meant to regulate source. But surely you knew that with economics 101 or what ever you took. Have you seen the thread about Progressives not understanding economics?


I didn't say protectionism was intended to set prices. I said it doesn't work because the company will simply pass on the increased cost to the customer. Due to this you cannot regulate source. The only way for you to do that would be to say "Steel cannot be imported to the U.S." or placing a quota on the amount that can be imported. A quota might cause some increase in local protection, but in the end it would simply cause a rise in price.

And really, all you ever do it call me a progressive. I'm not insulted, get over it.



[edit on 10-6-2010 by antonia]



posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by antonia

I'm not illegal, I'm not married to an illegal, My relatives are not illegals. Thanks but try again.


My apologies. I must have misunderstood all the "anchor baby" stuff in another thread.



Originally posted by antonia
You assume I know nothing because I disagree with you.


No, I assume you know little because you repeat the stuff thats simplistic and over hyped by the media, and your reasoning is shallow and superficial.


Originally posted by antonia
I have taken Macro and Microeconomics, read many books on the subject and worked in business. Pricing works on supply and demand for the most part. Low Supply, High demand= High Prices etc.


Well at least you arent totally in the dark on the terms, you just dont seem to apply them beyond a superficial level.



Originally posted by antonia
We are practicing protectionism now with steel. There is a tariff on imported steel. Jobs have not returned to the American Steel industry. There is also a tariff on imported tires. What was the reaction? The price of tires went up and imported tires are still cheaper. No new jobs were made in america because of that tariff.


And why is that Antonia? Because the tariffs have been in place too short a time to see any of the benefits compared to the initial raise in price? What a magical world you must live in to think that spotty application of tariffs, far too late in the game, will bring immediate results. Especially when we dont have tariffs on products manufactured elsewhere using cheap steel as well to back up the tariff on steel itself.

And if tariffs are so pointless, why are they opposed so vehemently by the countries they have the greatest impact on? For exactly the same reason workers here demand them? Or no? Do you have some other understanding of why these policies create such heated battles?



At the crux of all these issues is China's need to fuel its growth and keep people working. Many Chinese steel companies are owned by the central or provincial governments, and they operate with cheap, if not free, capital. China's currency is also undervalued. In combination, these factors require China to sell its products as cheaply as possible to maintain demand for them -- and to keep its citizens employed.


See full article from DailyFinance: srph.it...




Originally posted by antonia
Historically, prices always go up when you institute a tariff. In order to make a tariff work there must be some American company making the stuff.


You are right, the price will go up. And if you have already lost manufacturing, it will take a while for the companies to get up and running and make the stuff you are no longer allowing into your country cheaply. But guess what? Demand fuels supply, and they will begin making it.



Originally posted by antonia
Most of the things we use are i,ported, clothes, electronics, etc. All the companies will do is raise the prices. When transport costs go up they raise the price, when taxes go up they raise the price. They always pass the cost on, this is historical fact.


There is a point where raising the price is not cost effective, and the profit margins narrow. Products have a price point above which demand falls. If you had added cost managerial accounting to your list of studies, you would know that you dont only choose to produce that which is highly profitable.




Originally posted by antonia
I didn't say the export of these jobs wasn't an issue. I'm stating kicking all the illegals out isn't going to fix that problem. perhaps you should look at why the jobs are being exported in the first place. It's not because of illegals.


Apparently, you dont read for comprehension. I think I elaborated why which came first is beside the point.

You are making the facts fit your argument, rather than letting the facts speak for themselves. The facts are, that countries we trade with oppose tariffs because they hurt their economies and benefit ours. American companies that rely on cheap imports oppose them too. But its not all about the supposedly American (now in many cases international) corporations. Its about the people of the country.

What has happened to our country has not happened over night. It has been a very long campaign, at the very least since the 70's, to renew the push to globalize the economy. Just because protectionism is not an immediate solution does not mean it is not a solution. Just because it has negative impacts in the short run does not mean it is negative in the long run.

You need to look at the whole dynamic, not just some narrow slice of it, and you also need to consider the long run, not only the immediate short run, to make wise decisions about economic policy.

The Founders, (I know you dislike the Founder religion) did not form this country for the benefit of corporations. They founded it for the people, and their steps to ensure we were economically competitive was not an end in itself, it was to ensure the well being of the nation and her people. It was to support American industry, and in doing so, the American people.

Corporations are no longer "American" in many cases. They do not tie their fate to ours, which forces us to either retie the bond or begin to protect our own self interest as they are surely protecting their own.





[edit on 10-6-2010 by Illusionsaregrander]



posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 02:07 PM
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reply to post by antonia
 


Generally Protectionism only works for broad based economic policy.. like saying ALL imports of a 10% tariff. Singled out industries lead to trade wars, which importing countries almost always loose because they are more dependent on what little they can export -- such as the American Japanese trade wars of the 80's over the automobile market. And ultimately the idea is not to protect prices at all, whether they rise or fall is irrelevant, so long as corporate profit is increased, or if it's not, supplemented by increased tax revenue.

Freetrade practices like NAFTA or the WTO allow American based corporations to engage in economic warfare while still keeping profits.. Ford can move it's manufacturing to Mexico (which it has and is) to build cheaper parts, then ship them to America to be sold .. higher profit, more income tax, and the price of the vehicle doesn't change but for the yearly increase. Tariffs work for the people in the sense that, ya prices might go up, or down, or be volatile, but it keeps the international markets competitive and secures their jobs. Still, kinda hard to do though if your a net importer like America.. hence our Free Trade policies.



posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 02:14 PM
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Originally posted by antonia
I live in the U.S. and was born here. I do not display my location because I am one of about 150 people with my first name in the state I live in. It would be far too easy to find me.



You are worried about being found and yet you apparently use your real first name and photo.

Interesting logic, as usual.



posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander


No, I assume you know little because you repeat the stuff thats simplistic and over hyped by the media, and your reasoning is shallow and superficial.


You call it superficial simply because you disagree. Why don't you show me one instance of tariff working? here's a long list for you
en.wikipedia.org...
Tariffs lead to retaliation by the other countries. They hurt trade and they hurt consumers.



And if tariffs are so pointless, why are they opposed so vehemently by the countries they have the greatest impact on? For exactly the same reason workers here demand them? Or no? Do you have some other understanding of why these policies create such heated battles?



At the crux of all these issues is China's need to fuel its growth and keep people working. Many Chinese steel companies are owned by the central or provincial governments, and they operate with cheap, if not free, capital. China's currency is also undervalued. In combination, these factors require China to sell its products as cheaply as possible to maintain demand for them -- and to keep its citizens employed.


See full article from DailyFinance: srph.it...


For all this talk of the steel tariff, I have seen no one iota of talk from American companies concerning bringing steel production back to this country. China is against it because it's nonsensical and will cause them to have to raise their prices. If they have to raise prices they will cut labor to even out the profit margin. You cannot set the source by manipulating the price. It has been done many times and it's never worked.




There is a point where raising the price is not cost effective, and the profit margins narrow. Products have a price point above which demand falls. If you had added cost managerial accounting to your list of studies, you would know that you dont only choose to produce that which is highly profitable.


That point is pretty high these days. Transport is still rather cheap. It's much cheaper than paying American labor costs. All tariffs do is seek to manipulate price, this does not address the central reason why the businesses left in the first place. If you want businesses back you offer tax breaks, stable labor costs and other incentives.





Apparently, you dont read for comprehension. I think I elaborated why which came first is beside the point.


Again, could i not say the same about you? Since you are making it evident you think so little of me perhaps this conversation should end now. I have no desire to waste my time speaking to someone who makes assumptions about my background and then insults me.


The Founders, (I know you dislike the Founder religion) d


More assumptions.



posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 02:34 PM
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reply to post by die_another_day
 



If Americans were willing to take the lower end jobs then the Hispanic wouldn't be coming over here because they will know that there aren't any jobs.



That's a load of crap.

I am an American and when I was raising my boys, I took whatever jobs I could get to take care of them, low end or not. I have worked in a factory, tended bar, worked in a flower shop, and yes even cleaned peoples toilets, while furthering my education and raising my sons. And guess what my fellow coworkers in those jobs were fellow Americans. A job is a job, regardless of whether it's low end or not and there are many, many Americans that take pride in the fact that they work to support themselves and thier families no matter what type of job they have.

The illegal that lives down the block from me, hell I'll take his factory job making over $18. an hr in a heartbeat !



posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 02:37 PM
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Originally posted by antonia

Originally posted by Rockstar02
reply to post by antonia
 


Wow, what a crappy cop out. Look at the numbers. When 82% of a country speaks one language, I don't think you need a label to define anything. i think you know what I was trying to say, but if you're trying to break my coconuts over the "official language" of the United States, then I'm not going to sit here and dignify you with a response. You wanna defend the illegals and look like the most PC person here? Cheers. When you head on back to the real world, look me up and I'll gladly go to town on this debate with you...


It wouldn't be a debate. It would a one-sided argument with you screaming "you are wrong". My point is that you need to stop blaming your problems on others. If a company wants someone to speak Spanish it is their right to demand it. If you want the job learn the language or go elsewhere.

[edit on 10-6-2010 by antonia]


Oh I see, so if millions of Americans or another english speaking nationality decided to enter Mexico or another spanish speaking country, then it would be ok for employers to demand that they speak english now if they want a job? And of course the Hispanics would go along with that and learn english just because the english speaking people came over illegally and took jobs. They wouldn't blame us for their having to speak a foreign language in their own country? Absolutely absurd!



posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by antonia
China is against it because it's nonsensical and will cause them to have to raise their prices. If they have to raise prices they will cut labor to even out the profit margin. You cannot set the source by manipulating the price. It has been done many times and it's never worked.


Oh, because Rockpuck mentioned "source" you throw that in to make it sound better? Its not working.

You dont understand at all. Its not nonsensical. The allegations are that China is subsidizing its steel industry, which gives it an unfair advantage over a more "capitalistic" production, in which the state is not giving the company free resources, etc. Its not all about cutting the price of labor, Antonia. Thats the bull# simplistic crap I was talking about. You are looking at the problem in terms of labor and price only, when there are loads of other things that get factored in. Such as Chinese companies not having to make a profit, etc.


Originally posted by antonia
That point is pretty high these days. Transport is still rather cheap. It's much cheaper than paying American labor costs. All tariffs do is seek to manipulate price, this does not address the central reason why the businesses left in the first place. If you want businesses back you offer tax breaks, stable labor costs and other incentives.


Its just not that easy. In this case, if you actually understood why Chinese steel is so cheap you would have to realize that you would have to do a lot more than you are suggesting. You are just mouthing things corporations propagandize in order to justify cutting costs at the labor level repeatedly.

There is no one "price point" that is pretty high. Every product has its own price point, and that is determined by the actual demand for that one product, which can vary quite a bit as some things are necessities, and others are luxuries that people will stop purchasing in favor of necessities if they have to choose. There are tons of variables. Not just price.



Originally posted by antonia
I have no desire to waste my time speaking to someone who makes assumptions about my background and then insults me.


My assumptions were based on your comments about anchor babies in another thread a while back. I apologized if I misunderstood, but I sure wish I could find the post again, because I rarely remember that poorly. The insults about your understanding of protectionism I dont retract. I dont expect agreement from you or anyone. But I do expect some decent reasoning, not just platitudes mindlessly repeated. I dont apologize for that.


Originally posted by antonia

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
The Founders, (I know you dislike the Founder religion) d


More assumptions.


No, fact. Which is why I wish I could find the other post. I usually dont forget, but apparently, you do.

reply to post by antonia
 



Originally posted by antonia
I'm tired of the "Church of the Founders". At the end of the day they were people.



posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 02:54 PM
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Originally posted by Night Star


Oh I see, so if millions of Americans or another english speaking nationality decided to enter Mexico or another spanish speaking country, then it would be ok for employers to demand that they speak english now if they want a job?


Nope, that doesn't bother me. A company can demand whatever skills they desire from their applicants.



No, fact. Which is why I wish I could find the other post. I usually dont forget, but apparently, you do.

reply to post by antonia


Originally posted by antonia
I'm tired of the "Church of the Founders". At the end of the day they were people.


Simply expressing my dissatisfaction with the deification of this countries founders does not mean I think everything they said was crap.

[edit on 10-6-2010 by antonia]



posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 03:02 PM
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reply to post by antonia
 



"They took our jobs"! Oh really? You were entitled to those jobs?


Yes, as an American I am entitled to those jobs before an illegal immigrant.



"I have to learn Spanish to find a job"! So learn Spanish. You want to work right? Bone up and learn.


No, actually anyone that wants to live in America needs to bone up and learn English. If I went to go live in Mexico I'd learn Spanish, if I went to go live in France I'd learn French.

They want to live here then they have a responsibility to adapt to this country, not the other way around. It's that simple.



You know what? I think we should give all of you what you want. We are going to take every illegal and get them out of this country.



Would you really do that for us ? I would be ever so grateful



posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 03:05 PM
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Originally posted by chise61
reply to post by antonia
 


No, actually anyone that wants to live in America needs to bone up and learn English. If I went to go live in Mexico I'd learn Spanish, if I went to go live in France I'd learn French.

They want to live here then they have a responsibility to adapt to this country, not the other way around. It's that simple.


I don't disagree with that. if you want to survive somewhere you should learn the language.



posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 03:08 PM
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reply to post by Rockstar02
 


Well FYI before I posted it seems that there were rifts anyway. In fact Arizona and illegals his has been a hot button topic for several months. Go back and check up previous OPs. Obviously killing a mexican kid is no big deal to you. I am a parent so I am steamed.

Why don't you explain to us all why Illegals are being hired over the Americans (I would not call us natives). Here is the news Illegals work for lower rates and aremore productive. If you have another RATIONAL explanation then I am all ears>


[edit on 10-6-2010 by Tiger5]



posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 03:12 PM
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Of course do people realise that back in the day the official language of California should have been spanish but Governor Pete Wilson vetoed that one?

Bilingualism is a skill needed in the global economy.

[edit on 10-6-2010 by Tiger5]



posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 03:23 PM
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reply to post by Tiger5
 



Bilingualism is a skill needed in the global economy.



You're right, it is.

However it is not a skill that should be necessary to work at your local currency exchange. The people that live in America and frequent an American business should be capable of using and understanding the English language.



posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 03:39 PM
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Originally posted by Tiger5
reply to post by Rockstar02
 


Well FYI before I posted it seems that there were rifts anyway. In fact Arizona and illegals his has been a hot button topic for several months. Go back and check up previous OPs. Obviously killing a mexican kid is no big deal to you. I am a parent so I am steamed.

Why don't you explain to us all why Illegals are being hired over the Americans (I would not call us natives). Here is the news Illegals work for lower rates and aremore productive. If you have another RATIONAL explanation then I am all ears>


[edit on 10-6-2010 by Tiger5]


Cheap labor and the Cheap companies that pick these people up at the 7-11 and home depot parking lots don't have to pay taxes for these guys or give them benefits. As far as them being more productive...that's just plain old BS. I have actually worked with some before and I can tell you, they are no more productive than anyone else.Urban legends. It boils down to they will work for much less because less here is a fortune in their homeland where they send their money to. In other words they come here work for cheap,use the health care...because in this country no one can be turned away from the hospital...it's the law! then drive illegally..sometime getting accidents and killing people...all the while not being charged.etc,etc,etc....



posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 03:49 PM
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Originally posted by CaptGizmo
It boils down to they will work for much less because less here is a fortune in their homeland where they send their money to.


Agreed. If Americans could park their families in Mexico, and take advantage of the lower cost of living, and draw salaries here, they wouldnt be complaining as much about the lower wages.

Of course if they did, the cost of living there would rise. Thats the problem with "cheating" an economic system, it only works if some do it, but not when all do it. Which is why those not on the good end of the cheating get pissed.



posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 04:45 PM
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The USA is the most darkest disgusting surge on this earth. May god have pity on your souls.


We cannot help that your country has had to endure the sorriest of leadership that has affected your quality of life, ability to make a living and in general provide it's own citizens with a good lfestyle. Those of us here in the USA have tolerated an infiltration of people from Mexico for many years now, and quite frankly we are tired of your fellow countrymen & women sneaking across the border illegally and working for what amounts to peanuts only to send what they make back to Mexico because your country cannot pay a good livable wage to people who are residents there. We are also taking action against those companys who hire illegals to stop this madness once and for all.

Our country was founded by immigrants who are still welcomed to come here but only when they do so within a legal manner. The immigrants who founded the USA are a far cry different from the ones we are trying to stop from entering our great nation today. The former immigrants helped to build our nation while immigrants who sneak across the border do little within that concept. Those criminals have placed a burden on not only law enforcement but our economy and citizens as well. And we are tired of it.

The USA helps every country on earth and many times, asks for little in retuern other than to help us stop the illegal immigrant flow. Your country has refused because of the current welfare state of Mexico along with the attitude of your leader whose thought process is to just allow our Mexicans to go to the USA then deport them if they are caught rather than trying to make Mexico a better place for it's own citizens so that they do not have to resort to paying "mles" high prices to sneak them across the border and risk their own lives in the process.

Perhaps if the citizens of Mexico would place an emphasis on making Mexico a better country instead of trying everything under the sun to sneak into ours, you folks would have a better life style and quality of life instead of blaming the USA because4 you people break our laws then cry foul when your ass gets caught.



posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 07:37 PM
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Obviously, my post was ignored.

I don't get it with you guys. Why are you still arguing over this? Why are some of you still discriminating against people of Hispanic descent if I already stated my position in all of this? I am against illegals as well, but then Rockpuck had to get personal and start insulting an entire group of people just to anger a potential troll.

I'm not defending any illegals, or Mexicans for that matter; I'm defending myself. Don't you think I'm ashamed to have descended from modern Mexicans? Why do people like Rockpuck just ignore posts like mine and continue to group me together with them?

I only want people to acknowledge that I am NOT one of THEM (the illegals); that's all I ask. I am with Arizona and with the anti-illegal-immigration laws, yet people still think that just because I'm "Hispanic" that I support the illegals.

Besides, this is ATS where the motto is "Deny Ignorance". Last time I checked, discrimination and prejudice of any kind IS ignorance. Just stop your petty fighting already.



posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 08:39 PM
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Originally posted by Unown
Don't you think I'm ashamed to have descended from modern Mexicans?


Personally, I dont see why you would be ashamed to be descended from Mexicans. Aside from an interest in personal history, and the journey your people took to lead to you, what does it matter who you are descended from? You should never apologize for the actions of your ancestors, you sure as hell dont get credit for their victories, do you? Each person is culpable for their own actions or inactions.


Originally posted by Unown
I only want people to acknowledge that I am NOT one of THEM (the illegals); that's all I ask. I am with Arizona and with the anti-illegal-immigration laws, yet people still think that just because I'm "Hispanic" that I support the illegals.


I personally never assumed you or any other Hispanic American would support illegal immigration. I spent 15 years in New Mexico. I know a LOT of Hispanic Americans. The vast majority of them, unless they have close family or friends who are themselves illegal, do not support illegal immigration.

I personally dont buy the "everyone brown against everyone white" argument. I personally happen to know too many people of too many ethnicities and in general, they make up their own minds. When I argue with someone individually, I argue with that person, based on what they themselves say. I dont argue with their skin color. I could honestly care less what color their skin is. I dont treat them either more harshly, or more gently.


Originally posted by Unown
Last time I checked, discrimination and prejudice of any kind IS ignorance. Just stop your petty fighting already.


Boards like this are designed to allow "petty fighting" within limitations. (Courtesy, etc.) We arent all here to hold hands and sing Kum bah ya. Dont get so upset about the fact that we all dont agree on everything. Debate, and civil disagreement are part of the process of exchanging ideas and shaping the culture here or anywhere.

Trust me, the last thing you want is for everyone to agree on everything. Change and growth dont happen in those environments.

Edit to add, all the "personally's are to make it abundantly clear that this is MY opinion, and not stated as any sort of objective fact.



[edit on 10-6-2010 by Illusionsaregrander]



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