Government employees are not innocent...

reply to post by mnemeth1


then you see my point, that if the woman were to shoot a whole bunch of men who she didn't know, because she was mad at a few men that she did know, that the law shouldn't put the guy in jail who sold her the gun in the first place, and the bullets to go in the gun, nor the guy who taught her how to shoot it in the first place? clearly she is abusing the law and she needs to be treated as an individual. perhaps if this happened everywhere (treating people like individuals), we could lower the amount of suffering on the planet.

So all of you saying Joe stack is a monster for killing government employees...

That means the fighter pilots that accidentally put a jdam onto a village convoy not militants are murderers and monsters too right?

See the thing is .... yes people do have to eat and survive... but when you work for an evil entity and get tagged when someone justifiably strikes back against them... YES YOU ARE COLLATERAL damage and even if you were a good person by working for the enemy of freedom and justice you have forfeited any claim of innocence.

truthfully I don't even think of them as collateral damage... they were non combatant enemy logistics personnel... aka FAIR GAME.

If you don;t ike the idea of getting killed because of your employer ... don't work for the government because guess what it;s coming people.

Hey and for all of you out there wearing a badge that are the militant arm of the power structure... aka front line combatants.. keep this in mind when you strap on your gun and badge every day and the tyranny becomes more unbearable by the day... eventually you will have to make a choice and decide whether you are on their side or the side of freedom or the choice could be made for you

reply to post by roguetechie

even if you were a good person by working for the enemy of freedom and justice you have forfeited any claim of innocence.

you realize, of course, that the definition of this changes daily? what's freedom and justice for you, may be the opposite for someone else, thusly why we try to use peaceful means of problem solving when possible. otherwise, the whole planet woulda went kablam a long time ago.

reply to post by SpectreDC

the scope of what you present is so much smaller and relative to those directly involved that you can't even compare them.

okay, allow me to rephrase.

let's say a group of cow herders on a ranch, has been allowing their cows to graze their neighbors hayfield. should the neighbor, who is being robbed, blame the lady who cleans the barn, who isn't even related by birth to the cow herders? maybe she doesn't even realize they are robbing the guy next door. maybe they told her they compensate the guy next door for allowing their cows to graze his hayfield by keeping the street in front his house clear of snow in the winter.

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by SpectreDC

 

the scope of what you present is so much smaller and relative to those directly involved that you can't even compare them.

okay, allow me to rephrase.

let's say a group of cow herders on a ranch, has been allowing their cows to graze their neighbors hayfield. should the neighbor, who is being robbed, blame the lady who cleans the barn, who isn't even related by birth to the cow herders? maybe she doesn't even realize they are robbing the guy next door. maybe they told her they compensate the guy next door for allowing their cows to graze his hayfield by keeping the street in front his house clear of snow in the winter.

Better straw man, but still a straw man. 7/10 this time. Maybe if you give it a frilly hat I'll give it a 8/10. Nice try though.

Reread what I said, as neither of your arguments hold any relation to what I was talking about.

reply to post by SpectreDC


whew, i have to keep re-reading that thing.
i must have comprehension problems today.

[edit on 21-2-2010 by undo]

reply to post by roguetechie


YO, FBI: Here's another nutjob you can add to whatever watchlist you've got going. I hope it's called "The Traitorous Scum" list, or at least something to that effect.

reply to post by SpectreDC


okay read it again. here goes my take on it.

you said:

You know, ends justifies the means, you need to break a few eggs to make an omelet.

you mean "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"? had we followed this during the fight for equal rights, we'd still be making black people sit on the back of the bus. it all goes back to the individual. even though the individual lives in a collective, the fact remains that we are individually responsible for our actions. the planet hasn't figured that out yet. which is why there are so many wars and crimes commited. i can just blame someone else.

Sorry to see all the Quislings and Vichey jump all over you for what is a thought provoking post.

As for "which government workers are innocent" I think you made it abundantly clear you refer to the federal government, which originally had no touch points -- NONE! -- with the citizen whose "government" was local, all of it. The federal government is no longer a federation of sovereign states but rather a centralized, national state much like a monarchy or dictatorship but with better PR.

Now, as for innocence as opposed to "guilt by association", these Quislings sound as though they are covering their own butts, so to speak, reflecting their own private deals with the devil.

The Nurmburg trials decided for all time, "Just following orders" is no excuse and anyone in the chain of command -- military or civilian -- can be arrested, tried, convicted and even executed for the crimes of the state.

Period.

So all the wishy-washy, mealy-mouthed excuse makers take notice: our government is corrupt and MasterJedi is quite correct.

If you can't or won't understand this, then you are part of the problem and, as I am fond of saying, my great-grandfather should have blown yours out of New York Harbour before defacing American soil with his servile, butt-kissing, peasant self.

Sign me, THE SPIRIT OF '76 because MY ancestors killed and died to reign in an overbearing, illegal government and I'm not about to sit by and watch it all happen again for the likes of you Huddled Masses.

Originally posted by MasterJedi
reply to post by DJW001

 

I actually maintain 6 systems which have no involvements with any government entities, so yes, I'm as clean as I can make myself in a country that is so hopelessly entangled with the government.

I also provide my own vegetables and buy meat from a non-subsidized rancher. I try to contribute as little as possible to the machine whenever possible.

I see that this has degraded more to a thread of attacking me personally, and not the idea of personal responsibility that I had envisioned it to be. So continue, if you will to attack me, but I'll not respond.

But I still maintain the belief that you choose to work for a corrupt entity, then you are no better than they. Of course there are those who are trying to change it from within, but I'm of the position that those are fewer than many on here believe.

[edit on 21-2-2010 by joeofthemountain]

[edit on 21-2-2010 by joeofthemountain]

Originally posted by MasterJedi

I'm as caring and compassionate as the next person, but I stand my belief that you are not innocent if you knowingly work for a corrupt boss.

I whole-heartedly agree. It all comes down to making a moral choice. Do you have integrity or not? Do you justify evil by being a slave to it?

This applies to any type of work---I am not singling out government employees! Do you work for a corporation that is cheating the public? Do you help them carry out the deceit through your own compliance?

When the tall cedars go into the fire, the hyssop does also.

If you participate in things that compromise your morals just to stay employed, if your employment requires actions cause unjust suffering deliberately and purposely, then you have 'blood' on your hands, too.

For example, have you ever been told to shred important papers that would confirm someone's guilt or innocence? Have you ever been told to "loose papers" when a dying person had a case to collect insurance reimbursement? Does your employer expose you and others to health risks on the job without providing proper knowledge or protective gear? These are the kind of things I am referring to.

It's time to come clean; blow the whistle, expose the corruption, wash your hands of it and walk away.





[edit on 21-2-2010 by Alethea]

[edit on 22-2-2010 by Alethea]

reply to post by joeofthemountain

"Just following orders" is no excuse and anyone in the chain of command -- military or civilian -- can be arrested, tried, convicted and even executed for the crimes of the state.

oh NOW i get it. you're threatening the military with a violent coup.
why didn't i notice that to begin with. but first you have to blame them for crimes against the people of the USA. so, just make some up! that's what stalin woulda done!


[edit on 21-2-2010 by undo]

Originally posted by buttking
reply to post by roguetechie

 

YO, FBI: Here's another nutjob you can add to whatever watchlist you've got going. I hope it's called "The Traitorous Scum" list, or at least something to that effect.

Well, given the thread title you might as well give a shout out to the folks at DHS, NSA, CIA and projects Echelon, Carnivore, Einstein, etc. too. Cause you know they pretty much have to be reading this thread.

Sup guys?

If we go down that rabbit hole then where do we stop? Is anyone who pays taxes innocent? Without tax money our government would be powerless to do anything. We wouldn't be able to fund wars. We wouldn't people able to do anything.

Theoretically, anybody who pays taxes is oiling the gears on the machine. Are these people innocent or fair game?

reply to post by Styki


we don't go there, because it doesn't have all
that fun stuff at the end of it, like shooting people with guns and stuff.

You're not really this dense, are you? You are just putting me on, right?

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by joeofthemountain

 

"Just following orders" is no excuse and anyone in the chain of command -- military or civilian -- can be arrested, tried, convicted and even executed for the crimes of the state.

oh NOW i get it. you're threatening the military with a violent coup.
why didn't i notice that to begin with. but first you have to blame them for crimes against the people of the USA. so, just make some up! that's what stalin woulda done!


[edit on 21-2-2010 by undo]

reply to post by Walkswithfish


As i recall, George Washingtons most famous motto was 'it doesnt matter who the people vote for they will always vote for us" impliying we actually have no say when we vote, so we cant really blame ourselves for electing these people into positions of power because the opposing candidates are on the same team anyway and the outcome is always the same us against them.the government are honestly so very corrupt that it is more than the average human can grasp.education ,medical and justice systems are corrupted as well evern if you dont see it at first. And most of the people that work in government positions such as teachers,firefighters and doctors have no idea that they are even helping contribute to the governments conspiracy,and they are also brainwashed and playing into the goverments plan without even realizing it because its hidden in plain sight.

[edit on 21-2-2010 by nonconformist]

See this is the thing I can never understand, people keep saying that things will change come november, just wait till november. What's all the waiting about, waiting for what the next fixed elections? People need to start making some changes within themselves and for the betterment of their fellow citizens. If we are relying on the crooks we keep voting into office to change life for the better then we have a lot of learning to do. And yes the guy that flew the plane into the irs building was nuckin futz.

Look again to WWII or Vietnam for that matter.

The destruction of Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and countless "lesser" cities was justified on the basis of "total war" i.e., the civil population was no longer protected -- as they were during the previous several centuries of the Enlightenment -- because they too were considered "guilty" by the US chain-of-command from FDR down, becasue "they supported the war effort of the Axis, directly or indirectly".

So what do you have to say about that? Or is this the first you've heard of that concept????

Originally posted by Styki
If we go down that rabbit hole then where do we stop? Is anyone who pays taxes innocent? Without tax money our government would be powerless to do anything. We wouldn't be able to fund wars. We wouldn't people able to do anything.

Theoretically, anybody who pays taxes is oiling the gears on the machine. Are these people innocent or fair game?

So if the federal government is benevolent, Why do you care? Why be afraid of the alphabet soup agencies if they only have your best interest at heart, and are manned by hard-working "just us folk" employees doing their jobs like everyone else?

I don't see how you can reconcile the rhetoric (clearly butt-kissing) with the actions (clearly defensive and from a no-power position on the standard 2x2 game theory matrix of potential response strategies).

One or the other is correct - both cannot as they are exclusive.

Originally posted by Frogs

Originally posted by buttking
reply to post by roguetechie

 

YO, FBI: Here's another nutjob you can add to whatever watchlist you've got going. I hope it's called "The Traitorous Scum" list, or at least something to that effect.

Well, given the thread title you might as well give a shout out to the folks at DHS, NSA, CIA and projects Echelon, Carnivore, Einstein, etc. too. Cause you know they pretty much have to be reading this thread.

Sup guys?

Your recollection is defective.

Originally posted by nonconformist
reply to post by Walkswithfish

 

As i recall, George Washingtons most famous motto was 'it doesnt matter who the people vote for they will always vote for us" impliying we actually have no say when we vote, so we cant really blame ourselves for electing these people into positions of power because the opposing candidates are on the same team anyway and the outcome is always the same us against them.the government are honestly so very corrupt that it is more than the average human can grasp.education ,medical and justice systems are corrupted as well evern if you dont see it at first. And most of the people that work in government positions such as teachers,firefighters and doctors have no idea that they are even helping contribute to the governments conspiracy,and they are also brainwashed and playing into the goverments plan without even realizing it because its hidden in plain sight.

[edit on 21-2-2010 by nonconformist]