Since when did deep thinkers become the crazy people?

reply to post by SpectreDC


I agree the truth IS out there, rather in each of us waiting for our realizations of it. Truth is a constant but can be blurred by belief and ego. Each of us are living truth, that may or may not fully realize what that means.

For the most part, I blame the human condition as always for usurping our minds and imprisoning us in ignorance. May the truth seeker persevere and find what they seek from within. Such seekers are often called "crazy" but they at least know the truth.

reply to post by CHA0S


Great thread

I think the thinkers and "crazies" threaten the status quo. You see human society is based on illusions and self-deception. For instance, we use paper money that is essentially worthless and yet no one ever really questions it. When you do accost the system they squelch you or label you until you go away. If they can nip you in the bud, before you awaken anyone, its much better for them. Like a large organism this artificial society will expel that which doesn't "belong".

And so those who question it all are ignored or labeled crazy.

I think the best evidence is that we use the name Einstein as a sarcastic insult and people are always slamming nerds, scientists and history buffs and creative people as being boring, weird, or being the types that spent time in their parent's basement. From birth these labels are drilled into our heads, we all want to fit in to some extent. I spent my life on the fringe, trying to be unique, and yet I desperately wanted the approval of my fellow man, so I became a sort of class clown, half philosopher half buffoon.

It's a difficult world, most people can't be bothered with all this thinking. These types of thoughts are dangerous to the status quo, to TPTB and in general to the functionality of a dysfunctional society. It's sort of like society is an engine, and instead of stopping to get it checked we just put the petal to the metal and hope the kinks work themselves out...

Great thread, ive been thinking of this for ages. Its so screwed up, and im so sick of the 'good christians', religion in general and the whole mainstream brainwashing. People need to wake the f**k up and think for themselves. You have to believe, you cant walk around hoping and praying.

Im only in high school, but im already amazingly sick of the system.. i can never get a normal job just working as any other robot for the rest of my life, thats not living - so i guess theres a chance im a future bum :/

reply to post by SpectreDC

First off, yes, to gather anything truly useful from these substances, you need to have a disciplined approach to it. Just like any method used by psychonauts, such as meditation, sensory deprivation, sleep deprivation, or fasting. You can not cultivate anything from these without discipline.

This is very true, it takes a mature approach with the right intentions. This is what people fail to see...

Dropping acid your first time won't teach you much, but what it can do is weaken your ego, destroy cultural values you had, and open your physical senses and your mental senses to phenomenon not typically seen in the normal consciousness.

Exactly...and it's easy for someone who doesn't understand this because they've never experienced an alternate state of consciousness, to claim that all drugs are evil and bad things that do no good...and anyone who tries to explain this is a whacked out druggo...

People fixate on the finger. They believe that by keeping a sharp eye on the finger it will lead them to the moon. What they neglect to see is that, between the two extremes, the finger and the moon, is a great distance, and THAT, is the true purpose of religion that has so horribly been neglected. The pathway the finger tries to present.

You seriously have some brilliant ways of explaining complex ideas...this is the exact problem...the focus on the finger and fail to see the real purpose and meaning which hides deep within all religions...

EDIT: I think we should stop with the drug thing though...because not long ago I tried explaining these things in a thread about psychonauts and the whole thread got removed...

[edit on 22/1/10 by CHA0S]

On conspiracies and such, while I, like the rest of you, take my time to try to discover the truth of what is going on in this world, I certainly don't make it a priority. And what with the utter contemptuousness the masses hold towards such topics, the belief that we can change things before they completely manifest has been dwindling in me more and more, and thus making research and speculating on such topics less of a priority for me. In fact it is my belief that ultimately the true conspiracy and goal of the NWO is to lessen the ability of people to seek out the truth of EXISTENCE in favor of this narrow minded physical reality we currently see manifested before our eyes.

War, 2012, genocide...all of this can lead to death for us, but I'm not that scared in the end of all of that. One thing ego death, on my first experience, did for me was destroy the fear of death. I've seen things I can't quite describe and obviously have no proof of through my experiences, but prior to ego death, when I tried to imagine what death was, an overwhelming fear overtook me. Now, that fear no longer manifests in me. It really is a great feeling, and now if anything I will welcome death when it comes to me, because it allows me to move on. At the same time, I embrace this life as it allows me to move ever so closer towards the truth of it all.

The strange paradox here for me, relating to this topic, is that this disdain towards intellectualism has helped me nudge towards these ideas I have, and being cast away onto the fringe of society has only given me a lot of time to cultivate myself and explore my mind. I take part in family gatherings and chill with friends, but I usually leave most of this stuff out of those and just embrace those times with loved ones. And the friends that I have, a few are open minded enough to at least allow me a dialogue on those topics, albeit maybe not as in depth as I would like sometimes.

This has effected me many, many times in the past. I have given undeniable evidence about something, and the person agrees with me to the letter... until i come to the logical conclusion. they just flat out refuse to understand that if it has a proper, provable, logical backing, then it shouldn't be ridiculed as if it didn't. and nothing too far out there, just some higher-logic thoughts and conclusions. i have heard my own father admit to his coworkers that there is almost undoubtedly people behind the scenes with more power than we can imagine, and that they use it to their own ends, but if i say anything of the sort, then he denies my logic and facts and sticks with the Fox News version.

Good thread. you have successfully captured the essence of what we try to deny; the instilling of illogical ignorance into the minds of the masses. i could not have phrased the OP nearly as well as you did. S+F

Ever considered that the same people who are behind the scences now, started christianity? This might seem a little bit unlikely, but secret societies have been around since the cradle of civilization. David Icke is so true if he says they created this fault in our perception, like a matrix. One example is whe seek outside ourselves: God makes us happy, things make us happy. If they can give us these things, we can be played around with like toys. Besides christianity they invented all these meaningless terms like: 'communism', 'capitalism', 'terrorism' etc. These are the matrix, the one and only truth is unconditional LOVE!! All=1

reply to post by SpectreDC

And what with the utter contemptuousness the masses hold towards such topics, the belief that we can change things before they completely manifest has been dwindling in me more and more, and thus making research and speculating on such topics less of a priority for me. In fact it is my belief that ultimately the true conspiracy and goal of the NWO is to lessen the ability of people to seek out the truth of EXISTENCE in favor of this narrow minded physical reality we currently see manifested before our eyes.

I know exactly what you mean...everyday my belief that we can change the world before it goes to far is lessening...fading away...and I'm on the edge of giving up hope...oh so close...but I try my hardest to keep a flame inside me alight...something inside me doesn't want to let go...maybe those people who state some of us came here to help this world are correct...I lean more towards that beleif all the time...but maybe I'm just looking for a reason to justify my existence here...why I stay and hold onto the hope of change...but I'll tell you now...if nothing has changed by 2012, or a few years after 2012...any last hope I have shall surely melt away...

One thing ego death, on my first experience, did for me was destroy the fear of death. I've seen things I can't quite describe and obviously have no proof of through my experiences, but prior to ego death, when I tried to imagine what death was, an overwhelming fear overtook me. Now, that fear no longer manifests in me. It really is a great feeling, and now if anything I will welcome death when it comes to me, because it allows me to move on. At the same time, I embrace this life as it allows me to move ever so closer towards the truth of it all.

I can say I've gone a far way in destroying my ego...because I no longer fear death in the slightest...and in fact will welcome it when the time comes...

The strange paradox here for me, relating to this topic, is that this disdain towards intellectualism has helped me nudge towards these ideas I have, and being cast away onto the fringe of society has only given me a lot of time to cultivate myself and explore my mind.

Yep...and it's this extra alone time that allows one to free their mind and remove themselves from this fast paced world where the mind gets no time to sit back and think about things...just as I was describing the bum who watches the world flow by while he has all the time in the world to think and ponder about things...it's this type of separation/meditation that truly moves the mind into a whole new way of viewing the world...

[edit on 22/1/10 by CHA0S]

Like someone else mentioned, we are all at our own levels of understanding. Some get bogged down in the illusions more than others. It can be frustrating because we share our lives with these people who are seemingly incapable of divining any truths from theirs, or others circumstances. They can't see outside the realities they themselves create in their own minds. And so, mastery over the art of living seems like something humanity as a whole will always struggle for. Heh,... yea. It can be frustrating.

Since Tesla.
If he would have said "Today's science says that is impossible !" - he would have been just another molded by the system.


en.wikipedia.org...

During this period, in the United States, Tesla's fame rivaled that of any other inventor or scientist in history or popular culture,[3] but because of his eccentric personality and his seemingly unbelievable and sometimes bizarre claims about possible scientific and technological developments, Tesla was ultimately ostracized and regarded as a mad scientist.

The quality of religion is only as proper as the people who practice their believes.

The qualities in a person is only as good as his understanding and actions there of.

Knowledge comes from how we as a person understand and perceive the things we observe and are thought.

People tend to question and accuse other peoples based on their own understanding. People use their own understanding to explain how others see things. Especially within religion.

Are you not doing exactly the same thing Chaos. I understand what you are saying. And to some extent I agree with the you that certain behavior is extremely poor, but your entirepost is no different.

He stated that Christians often seem to be very insensitive, and unconsciously heartless, the way the speak holier than thou condemning others and telling them where they're gonna go.

Generlizations galore. This is not an argument.

He continued, meanwhile they act like they are the compassionate ones...and what he is getting at here is often very true about Christians...

More generalizations as an absolute.

they act as though they're better than everyone else...

They?
Which they, Some christians, the christians he knows, or all christians?
I thought you said he had a DEEP argument. So far, nothing but bashing, labeling and generalizations.

they act as though they are above other people, the scum of the world who will rot in hell..

So you only need worry about christian attitudes if you are scum. Are you scum Chaos?

it's like a snotty exclusive club he states.

He states it! OMG. That is deep.

So the guy attacks others. Some folks, as simple as they may be or even as deep as one could think about the statements and generalizations would be offended by its generalizations and religious profiling. Hence some people would reply with their own generalizations and negative stereotyping as a means of returning a favor in the hope of causing his offense. As it seems your friend was deeply intent on doing that.

are u dumb? Christians go completely against that u idiot get some counseling u sound like one of those crazy homeless people

I think you need to hit the pipe again, buddy.

Huh? I think it's pretty apparent when you worship Satan. It's kinda hard NOT to notice.

god your an idiot

You reap what you sow CHAOS.
Like attracting like is what it appears to me. Ignorance. It appears that you were attracted to it.

He goes onto explain how much bloodshed and corruption exists because of religion, when it supposedly works towards the opposite of death and destruction.

So where is the explanation? You state it like his explanation was absolute!
All we have is your opinion that he explained it. Then you bring in only 4 replies and use that as evidence to attack others that replied to him.
Was his analysis deep enough to resolve the view that traditional states seem like religious states but they had underlying political and military philosophies that historically look religious in nature but were in fact secular, and the rational for war was often politically motivated and not religious.

In our contemporary culture it is easy to distinguish our political, military and religious establishments and the influences they have on global events. Going back even a few hundred years, these lines are blurred and it is often sited by people that many bloodsheds and war, historically, were religious in nature. I would like to hear the deep analysis of this and how your friend rationalized many historical wars and destruction as being purely religious.
How does your friend differentiate corruption. What is religious corruption?
How is it different to all other corruption. How did your friend quantify the destruction, death and general mayhem that was purely religious corruption as opposed to all other corrupt behavior?
Does he distinguish between individual corruption and institutional corruption?
Does he establish the inspiration for the religion and philosophy as being corrupt?
Was God and Jesus corrupt?
Did he reference the Encyclopedia of War which list 123 wars fought based on religious reasons out of 1,763 events of war. How does your friend conclude that Religion dominates the list as the most responsible cultural institution when we look at all bloodshed.
Half of those 120 odd wars were Islamic wars, so does that effect the view relating to the Bible and Christianity? Considering that the remaining non-islamic religious wars are inclusive of ALL other religion and not just Christianity.
I look forward to reading your friends deep analysis.
So far though all we have read is argument by assertion.

The bible states we must be unthinking robots and never even begin to question the LORDS position "Lean not unto your own understanding" it states. IDK about you, but that sounds like the request of an evil and manipulative overlord who's scared he'll loose power if people start exerting some independent thought.

No, it sounds like good advice. As you lean on your own understanding now, you are falling over.

The actual quote from proverbs is: "trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not unto your own understanding".
It is to do with a question of one having faith within the heart.

I find your manipulation of the text to suit your argument, with little regard for the context of the writings to be the highly ignorant.

The proverb that precedes it is to do directly with understanding, the proverb you edited to suit your argument is a message that just understanding or being wise is not enough and that one must also "trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not unto your own understanding".

When I criticize christianity, I alway find it useful to try and gain an understanding of it before I make any assertions about that religion, or those that follow it. I suggest you do this too, especially as it appears your only intent is to make popular generalizations that appeal to your own, or a popular bias.

I bet ALL those replies were made by Christians...but seriously...some of those replies are so pathetically ignorant I feel like killing myself just so I can escape this moronic planet which constantly corrodes away at my soul...

Then I suggest you stop betting on what is happening and actually find out. Considering you may be placing your life as the stake on which you place your bets.

this guy is obviously trying to discuss a perfectly rational idea, produced by utilizing logical analysis, and with an open mind.

No, that is your assessment of his actions. You are now presenting that as an absolute so as to establish grounds from which to launch an attack on those of an opposing view.

He also doesn't actually believe in religion, and tries THINKING FOR HIMSELF...

How do you know? Is religion the only form of doctrine or dogma. How did you establish that what he presented was not informed or inspired by any other philosophy inspired by abstracts.
In fact this thread has nothing to do with "thinking for oneself. All you have done is regurgitate is other peoples opinions that support your bias.
I find your blind acceptance of this persons rhetoric astounding. It is even worse that you use this rhetoric to juxtapose another form of rhetoric, so as to attack one, while idolizing another. This what people criticize religious people of doing.

thus enabling him to see religion for what it is...people are just so attached to the idea that God must be the "good guy" because it's been etched into their minds since birth, and they couldn't possibly try to exert some independent thought because they'd rather believe what everyone else tells them...this guy was simply making unbiased analysis with open mind and without including any false, and irrational preconceptions, and he gets flamed hard.

Yes, and here is that unbiased analysis, open minded dialogue devoid of irrational preconceptions.

He stated that Christians often seem to be very insensitive, and unconsciously heartless, the way the speak holier than thou condemning others and telling them where they're gonna go.

He continued, meanwhile they act like they are the compassionate ones...and what he is getting at here is often very true about Christians...

they act as though they're better than everyone else...

they act as though they are above other people, the scum of the world who will rot in hell..

it's like a snotty exclusive club he states.

One person says he sounds like a bum? Did they ever stop think a bum might actually be onto something?

Did you ever stop to think that it is the internet. He was on a forum full of anonymous posters. Did you even consider that the guy could have been conversing with 10 year olds? Maybe it was a Bum who said, you "sound like a bum".


I agree with you that you do indeed get a lot of ignorant people that post absolute rubbish.
I think you demonstrate that.

People want to become a part of the herd. The majority worships MSM while the minority worships unpopular thought.

Whether you're in the majority or the minority, you're still a sheeple. A part of the herd so to speak. Only the very few formulate their own thought process that is outside the popular or unpopular belief system. And those very few are individuals and do not belong nor follow any group's particular belief.

That my fried is a deep-thinker.

reply to post by pai mei

Yeah, Tesla is a good example of how ignorant prejudice is a virtue among us. It reminded me of his first radio patent:

When Tesla was 41 years old, he filed the first basic radio patent (U.S. Patent 645,576). A year later, he demonstrated a radio-controlled boat to the US military, believing that the military would want things such as radio-controlled torpedoes. Tesla claimed to have developed the "Art of Telautomatics", a form of robotics, as well as the technology of remote control.[62] In 1898, he demonstrated a radio-controlled boat to the public during an electrical exhibition at Madison Square Garden. Tesla called his boat a "teleautomaton".[63] Radio remote control remained a novelty until the 1960s

(from wiki)
Wiki doesn't mention that military officially dismissed him as a hoaxer after the boat demonstration, even though they couldn't find any proof.

To be frank it does scare the hell out of me that there are a lot of people that don't even seem to question their own lives or the world around them. I can't for the life of me understand why people just blindly accept their meagre existence without question. Like their 9-5 was all they were put here to do. When I question people about such things, I get such a blank expression (the blank expression a steaming drunk person has when looking at you).

A lot of the time I try to present an alternative reason for why things have happened in the news and a lot of the time no coherent answer is given all I get is simple dismissive statements such as, "they wouldn't do that" or "we'd know if that was true" or my favourite, "of course he did it".

These statements are all unthoughtful as much as they dismissive.

The ridicule that people receive is often without thought; a knee-jerk reaction if you will.
I guess the great evil of MSM is working really well. The MSM takes away our free-will by programming us to think less and act out our lives the way our superiors’ in the corner of the room tells us to. Without thought, without question. People are afraid to question what the MSM media tells them, much in the same way most people are afraid to question teachers, parents, policemen, judges etc etc..

Edit: Funny isn’t it, the thinker is being ridiculed by the non- thinker. Please refer to signatures:

[edit on 22-1-2010 by Trying Times]

reply to post by atlasastro


I suggest you look at a post I made at the bottom of page 2. You've totally ignored the whole basis of this thread and focused on the fact that I used an example involving Christians, and you've taken offense to it...rather than trying to read and understand the points I'm trying to convey, you'd rather focus on how I made those points because you obviously find it offensive, and I'm sorry for that, but it was not at all an attack on Christians, just a method of making my point...you're right...you do reap what you sow...Christians provided me with a useful real life example I could use to convey my point effectively - and the point of this thread was not to attack Christians...

As for the generalization thing...I'll just quote what I said earlier:

Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by EMPIRE

 

While I do agree that the comments may have been unwarranted, the guy is no deep thinker as he is making generalized statements about Christians and their religion. Deep thinkers don't generalize but examine everything critically, without emotions and attachment, and then present a compelling case/thought.

He may have generalized a little bit...not all Christians are the way he describes...but from what I can see...the VAST MAJORITY of them are PRECISELY how he describes...and he was in fact examining everything, not just the attitude of Christians, but what the bible teaches and how it has effected the world...and he WAS doing it without a emotional attachments and biased opinions...this guy was merely putting forward an out-of-the-box idea which I fully agree with...if there is such a thing as Satan, Christians are surely following him without even realizing it...just remember this: If you start telling me I'm going to burn in Hell for eternity...if Hell does exist...you're the one going there...if you even begin telling me I'm living my life totally wrong, and need to change how I live...well...you can just go to Hell...

[edit on 22/1/10 by CHA0S]

I thought you said he had a DEEP argument.

It maybe wasn't the most deep argument...but it was certianly a "different" way of thinking...he proposed something that most Christians would instantly reject and call him crazy for even proposing it...when it was perfectly rational...if you can look at what he was saying and without any previous attachments to a certian belief system...it does make sense and he isn't a crack-pot like those people instantly suggest...I'm an agnostic...I believe a God(s) could exist...because it's just as ignorant to state God does exist as it is to state he doesn't exist...so you see, I'm veiwing this with an open mind, and I'm not trying to do what an Athiest does and attack Christians, stating there is no such thing as God, and it's insane to believe such a thing. I'll just quote one last thing I said so you can get a better understanding of what this thread is about:

.a deep thinker has the ability to question and explore these out-of-the-box concepts and ideas...whether they are right or wrong makes no difference...it's the fact that they have the brain power to seperate themselves from the pack of sheeple, and stop being a mindless robot, and try to think for themselves...but when they do this, it immediately makes them crazy, like us conspiracy theorists who have the ability to question the Government and our supposed reality...we realize not everything is as it seems and exactly how we are told it is...but this makes us crazy people to everyone else...because they don't have the ability to exert such a degree of independent thought and question the truth about things...they believe everything is truly as they are told and the Government would never lie to them...it's a neat little package where they are never wrong because they know it all...so anyone who challenges them and offers out-of-the-box ideas are crazy...when it's just not true...they just have the ability to think a little deeper about things and think for themselves...

[edit on 22/1/10 by CHA0S]

The Op makes a great point that deep thinkers are now nuts because either they don't have "proof" or some of the ideas are rarely if ever presented to people like us. I also do not like how many "Christians" try to sell Christ like a salesman would a product. Him and the Disciples simply proclaimed their message to the masses and if they would not hear them they didn't shove it down their throats. Take a different approach to bring the love of God and Christ and people will at least listen. I do a lot of warning about Nephilim, fallen angels, Anti-Christ and NWO because conspiracies of today match up with biblical prophecy. I love studying the Word Of God and the prophecies that are contained in it especially the End Times scenarios that will come upon us. It's fascinating that man won't take the free gift of eternal life. I definitely would love to have what is described in the Scriptures after the Second Coming and Christ saves our sorry state from obliteration. To those holier than thou types have you not read the Gospels??? Yahushua called out all of the hypocrites and made known their righteousness was unrighteousness. Instead of worrying about pointing out people's sins overly like you haven't done things either, teach them of the love of God and His Kingdom. Remember these words. I have sinned many time in my life. Until I found Christ the Lord I was lost, and I'm still not a perfect person.

Mark 2:17 "When Jesus heard it, he said to them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Matthew 18:12 ""What do you think? Suppose a man has 100 sheep and one of them strays. Won't he leave the 99 sheep in the hills to look for the one that has strayed?"

Jude 1:14 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints..."

Jude 1:16 "These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaks great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage."

Isaiah 65:5 "Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day."
Luke 18:11 "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican."

Isaiah 29:13 "Why the Lord said, For as much as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:"

Matthew 15:8 "This people draws near to me with their mouth, and honors me with their lips; but their heart is far from me."

EDIT: By the way, when Christ started teaching men of His Father and the coming Judgment, End Times, Parables, and the wisdom and love of God, he didn't start a religion. He actually called out the religious system and government of the day. People say that he is just a way to control people. Or was he more revolutionary than you think?

[edit on 1/22/2010 by watchtheashes]

reply to post by CHA0S


I did not ignore the whole thread. I am replying to your OP. Why do I need a post on page two to put your OP in context.
It should be clear in the OP, that is what OP's are for.
I don't care what example you use, when the example you use of "deep" thinking is anything but that.




[edit on 22/1/10 by atlasastro]

I don't really understand what you mean by "deep thinkers", but Christians are hardly deep thinkers, in the way that anyone who thinks deep enough will realize that the beliefs preached in the gospels and the Bible are hollow and have been recycled from past religions.

I mean how can one be a deep thinker and never question the very idea of a "God"? And not wonder why is He called the "Father" if he is superior than any human form, and should not be of any gender? And what about the issue of defining Good and Evil? I'm not gonna start a lengthy diatribe on that, but there are for sure many fundamental question regarding Christian faith that simply do not seem to be asked by believers. And that completely makes sense like that, since when you are simply believing into something, you're just asserting, and imposing this "opinion" on ourself and the world around you.. but you are never questioning your own beliefs, values and concepts. You cannot doubt while asserting. You're just following what you've been told to believe in, as it is presented by authorities of your religion, whatever who that is.

Great thread, I have been asking myself this same question for as long as I can remember.

This thread his so close to home for me, as I myself have been branded an outsider in many respects for my "out landish" way of thinking...I was even once suspended in the 10th grade for bringing a copy of "The Kyballion" to R.E. class and made study the importance of religious belief in a school environment...should I have expected less from a small country town full of zealots?

Now here I am 23 years old, and still taking on the same ridicule from same narrow minded groups...but I will admit, it is extremely hard to pick out the people who just have that natural curiosity for the unknown.

...Now I have not read this thread in its entirety...but I want to ask, if there is anybody here who is strong hearted about their CHRISTIAN beliefs; can you even consider the idea that what this random guy asked COULD be true? or is it just in a seance...'Unthinkable'??