Bill Cooper , 'insectlike' beings from a totally incomprehensible culture

reply to post by DoomsdayRex


He's not my idol, as I have no idol's. I simply said that it is wrong for people to believe what someone says without researching the claims a person makes. William Cooper never said believe what he said. You are willfully ignorant Rex and you have your ways of doing things and it's not the right way.

Again, Mr. Cooper was a human being, human nature is the same every where and he would admit to his listeners when information he gave was found later to be wrong.

Yes he could be a hot head, but given what his life was put through and the fact that not all people handle things in life the same, how can we put him down? There are none righteous, we all have faults. He had faults, you have faults, I do and every single human being has faults. It is the condition of the human nature.

Facts alone, not blind belief. The recording linked to by Fist of The North Star is by a man with an ego problem and has put this together to feed his ego. The answering machine recordings of Cooper are interesting, but are presented in a way that can be misunderstood.

If you're satisfied with it and don't mind people inventing facts and twisting what people say and intentionally presenting it in a way that deceives, that is your business.

[edit on 15-1-2010 by TruthSeeker8300]

[edit on 15-1-2010 by TruthSeeker8300]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker8300
I simply said that it is wrong for people to believe what someone says without researching the claims a person makes...You are willfully ignorant Rex...

If you're satisfied with it and don't mind people inventing facts and twisting what people say and intentionally presenting it in a way that deceives, that is your business.

Speaking of, this is the second time you have mentioned Fist_of_the_North_Star's link as if it were the only one we referenced and are taking it on face-value without corroborating evidence. You accuse me and others of spreading lies and deceit when you have purposefully misrepresented what I have said. The only one twisting what people have said here is you. You have used ad hominems and made accusations against others without one shred of evidence, yet you have the audacity to tell us you have a conscience and we are the ones being willfully ignorant. Until you can present one iota of evidence, until you can present a cogent argument in support of Cooper that doesn't rely on calling others "scum", save the righteous indignation act. Everyone can see through it.

Or better yet, go right ahead and continue as is. You're a great example of the kind of minds Cooper attracts.

[edit on 15-1-2010 by DoomsdayRex]

Originally posted by Lillydale

Originally posted by Josephus23
Because someone gets drunk once or even twice or three times or four times, does that make them dependent upon alcohol.

As a recovering alcoholic that now helps to treat addiction, having spent MUCH MUCH time being educated about the effects and side effects and after effects of addictive drugs, I am sorry but um...

Please give up on the alcohol thing. You are going to have a much harder time proving it was not involved. We can take your argument and say, ok maybe he was not dependent on it. He just got drunk and violent once, or twice, or three times, or four times...

Whether he was an alcoholic or not, he obviously got drunk and wanted to hurt people, once or twice or three times or four times. Is that not what is being pushed here? He got drunk and violent on more than once occasion, so we know he is likely to do that sort of thing. He publicly threatened to shoot the cops if they came to his house.

1 + 1 = ? again?

I just have to say, proving he is drunk by listening to him is not definite by any means. I can give you that. I also hate this argument but let me make it just for fun-

The man was a professional orator. We have many many examples of his speech to listen to. You can hear the obvious signs of intoxication in these recordings. If it is not alcohol that causes this change in speech and this violent demeanor...what would cause that do you think?

I have to respond to this one Lillydale, mainly to offer you congrats.

A big cheers to you on maintaining sobriety (that was a bit backwards for me to cheers to sobriety, but I digress).

Also, check the 911 thread that we have been debating with those other fools. I got your back my brother.

Alcohol should have nothing to do with this debate concerning cooper.

I posted the autopsy report for 2 reasons, and that was to 1) show the readers that he was shot 6(six not five) times from the rear, and 2) THAT NO ALCOHOL WAS PRESENT IN HIS SYSTEM at the time of his death.

I am honestly not that interested in harping on this subject, but I do not care for misinformation. Relating alcohol in any way, shape, or form to the death of Bill Cooper is simply misinformation.

Bill Cooper had no alcohol in his system at the time of his death.

Any other statements regarding Cooper and alcohol are pure speculation.

I like to deal with tangible evidence when engaging in a debate. Interpreting a recording of Cooper is pure speculation. (he could have diabetes, he could be on medication, he could have some other type of issue that appears as alcohol intoxication. He could be abusing alcohol in order to relieve his temporary stress. Calling him an alcoholic is speculation. Relating alcohol in any way to a debate on Cooper is speculation).
The only way to make alcohol part of any debate is to have some type of hard evidence to back up the claim (DUI, rehab, etc....)
So far none has been presented, and......

I agree with you 100%!
This subject regarding this topic should be put to rest.

Alcohol was not in any way involved in the murder of Bill Cooper.

And I call it a murder because if one was to read the autopsy report, then it is plainly evident that the cause of death was ruled a homicide.
Not a suicide, but a homicide.


*See autopsy report.

[edit on 15-1-2010 by Josephus23]

[edit on 15-1-2010 by Josephus23]

[edit on 15-1-2010 by Josephus23]

Originally posted by Lillydale

Originally posted by Josephus23
here is his autopsy report

I see the autopsy of a man that got relatively few bullets in him by a team of police that had just been shot at. Do you know how police react when one of their own gets shot in the head? They tend to open fire and fire a LOT. He only got hit 5 times? Not bad. I see nothing that indicates that he was in a defensive or reclined position though. That story along the sides or more of the same opinion driven factless nonsense as most other places but it does remind me that a cop was shot in the head. You would think that when they recovered the bullets they checked to see if they came from Cooper's gun or one of the other officer's right? Did they not?

I am not quite sure why you pointed to the fact that the bullets were not checked? (in a debate this is called a straw man technique)

Just in case you didn't read through the link to find what that means, then here is an exact quote.

This is the fallacy of refuting a caricatured or extreme version of somebody's argument, rather than the actual argument they've made. Often this fallacy involves putting words into somebody's mouth by saying they've made arguments they haven't actually made, in which case the straw man argument is a veiled version of argumentum ad logicam. One example of a straw man argument would be to say, "Mr. Jones thinks that capitalism is good because everybody earns whatever wealth they have, but this is clearly false because many people just inherit their fortunes," when in fact Mr. Jones had not made the "earnings" argument and had instead argued, say, that capitalism gives most people an incentive to work and save. The fact that some arguments made for a policy are wrong does not imply that the policy itself is wrong.
In debate, strategic use of a straw man can be very effective. A carefully constructed straw man can sometimes entice an unsuspecting opponent into defending a silly argument that he would not have tried to defend otherwise. But this strategy only works if the straw man is not too different from the arguments your opponent has actually made, because a really outrageous straw man will be recognized as just that. The best straw man is not, in fact, a fallacy at all, but simply a logical extension or amplification of an argument your opponent has made.

From what I understand, the bullets and the respective guns to which they belonged are not something that would be reported in an autopsy.
An autopsy focuses solely on the body and anything related to the body. Any other evidence would be listed separately.

I was not sending you the link for the story, but the autopsy report.

And the reasons were for the 2 previously listed.

(I would say two down, but that seems a bit arrogant and presumptuous)



You da man Lillydale!

reply to post by DoomsdayRex


Hey, it's not my fault that you can't handle the truth. I could be childish too Rex.
You know, I could say that you're exactly what flies are attracted to.

But, I won't go that route. No, that was the first time I mentioned the link Fist of The North Star linked to. What I said stands regardless of what you have presented. This is not about William Cooper only, but for any thing when it comes down to knowing the facts.
What I said about William Cooper is the truth. He never said believe what he said. He said "Read about everything, listen to everyone, but believe nothing unless you can prove it with your own research."


Before I even began posting in this thread it was obvious what kind of character you have. People that believe any of what William Cooper taught, you call idiot's.

So don't try and turn this on me. You are exactly what I called you and I don't care that you cry about it. Quite simply Rex, you are an ugly person that doesn't care for truth. You are a hard hearted person and your behavior makes you appear intellectually bankrupt.


[edit on 15-1-2010 by TruthSeeker8300]

[edit on 15-1-2010 by TruthSeeker8300]

Originally posted by Josephus23
I am not quite sure why you pointed to the fact that the bullets were not checked? (in a debate this is called a straw man technique)

From what I understand, the bullets and the respective guns to which they belonged are not something that would be reported in an autopsy.

Do you know anything about a crime investigation? They ALWAYS DO BALLISTIC TESTS TO MATCH THE BULLETS TO THE GUNS.

Thanks so much for the lesson on what a straw man is but um...this was crime. The way they solve these types of crimes includes identifying which gun shot which bullet. The fact that you do not know that, does not make it a valid point.

An autopsy focuses solely on the body and anything related to the body. Any other evidence would be listed separately.

I was not sending you the link for the story, but the autopsy report.

And the reasons were for the 2 previously listed.

(I would say two down, but that seems a bit arrogant and presumptuous)

You da man Lillydale!

And wrong because I have no clue what you are talking about. Yes, the autopsy it to determine cause of death. The forensic investigation is to identify the shooter. What I asked was just when exactly that was done.

Originally posted by Lillydale

Originally posted by Josephus23
here

Well, I read a story about this man being trapped and shot at while running from his car to his home. It then says this report was obtained by the sheriff's office. What report? I do not see the report. Although they provided numbers, no one there is going to send me a police report of this incident so what does that prove? It looks like a story that is supposed to be believed based on a fact-check system that has a built in fail-safe. There is no report actually given and the numbers will not get you one to refute the story with.

One down.

Star for you on this one Lilydale.

I was not the thorough read, and you are right.
The source is listed as a case number or a file number, or something of that sort with the number of the sheriff's office in accompaniment.

But I would like to hold your evidence to the same level of accountability.
Something other than the tape.

Originally posted by Lillydale

Originally posted by Josephus23
I am not quite sure why you pointed to the fact that the bullets were not checked? (in a debate this is called a straw man technique)

From what I understand, the bullets and the respective guns to which they belonged are not something that would be reported in an autopsy.

Do you know anything about a crime investigation? They ALWAYS DO BALLISTIC TESTS TO MATCH THE BULLETS TO THE GUNS.

Thanks so much for the lesson on what a straw man is but um...this was crime. The way they solve these types of crimes includes identifying which gun shot which bullet. The fact that you do not know that, does not make it a valid point.

An autopsy focuses solely on the body and anything related to the body. Any other evidence would be listed separately.

I was not sending you the link for the story, but the autopsy report.

And the reasons were for the 2 previously listed.

(I would say two down, but that seems a bit arrogant and presumptuous)

You da man Lillydale!

And wrong because I have no clue what you are talking about. Yes, the autopsy it to determine cause of death. The forensic investigation is to identify the shooter. What I asked was just when exactly that was done.

My intent when I posted the links was to show you that as many people out in the world of the internet will like Bill Cooper as will dislike him.

I only wanted to establish that opinions will all fall where they do concerning Cooper, and that can be on either side of the fence, but at the end of the day, they are all just opinions.

But if you want to get into the actuality of his death, then give me a second to try and locate as much info as possible about him.
I can only post other peoples opinions about facts that they have in their possession.
I will do my best to locate the info in question.

My original intent was merely to defend his character from baseless accusations, but I like a challenge.
So, thank you for the challenge.

It might take me a second to locate all of the official info.

I find it very interesting that there are so many people here who seem to want so badly to discredit Bill Cooper.

reply to post by turk182


That's funny, because I find it interesting that some people want so badly to defend Cooper. Disinfo agents?

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex
reply to post by turk182

 

That's funny, because I find it interesting that some people want so badly to defend Cooper. Disinfo agents?

People that talk trash about the dead, especially saying if they were alive, they'd knock their teeth in, are cowards and full of it. They were too coward to confront him when he was alive and so they trash talk him now that he's dead. Don Ecker is a coward and so are any of you that behave the same way.

reply to post by TruthSeeker8300


I guess since I was not born in time to tell Hitler that he sucks, now that he is dead I have to say nice things about him? No one ever told me about these rules. I did not know who cooper really was when he was alive. I did not find out how much ill there was to speak until he died. Oh well, I guess we have about 3 generations of people now that cannot speak ill of Hitler because he is dead and they did not do it while he was alive.

If you get drunk and threaten to shoot at cops, eventually you probably will.

Cooper wasn't drunk when he shot at the police in DEFENSE, after those coward cops lured him outside of his house. You dare use Hitler as a comparison? You and Rex are in the same boat.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker8300
Cooper wasn't drunk when he shot at the police in DEFENSE, after those coward cops lured him outside of his house. You dare use Hitler as a comparison? You and Rex are in the same boat.

How do you know any of this? We have recordings of him promising to do it. Do you have any tapes of the police promising to help the NWO rub one UFO nut out?

reply to post by Lillydale


He wasn't a 'ufo nut'. He later came to deny the existence of E.T. He came to believe that u.f.o's were government made. Hince the reason they are always first on a scene.

The facts prove he wasn't drunk. It's clear to me you haven't done any research, you haven't listened to his broadcasts or any thing. I have nothing else to say to you about this.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker8300
reply to post by Lillydale

 

He wasn't a 'ufo nut'. He later came to deny the existence of E.T. He came to believe that u.f.o's were government made. Hince the reason they are always first on a scene.

So that invalidates my point how?

The facts prove he wasn't drunk. It's clear to me you haven't done any research, you haven't listened to his broadcasts or any thing. I have nothing else to say to you about this.

I did not say he was drunk at the time of the shooting. I said he was A drunk. If you had any facts to back up your story and you really cared, why would you end the conversation? I am not here simply belittling you. I am trying discuss the "facts" of the matter. The fact is we have his own words promising to do what he did and we have his own words demonstrating what a violent minded drunk he can be. I am not sticking up for the government because I think cops or the feds are all good guys. I am looking at this case as it stands with the facts at hand. If you have some super secret knowledge, please share.

If you get drunk and call people, do not leave messages threatening them. Id you promise to shoot at police on your property, try not to let any police get shot on your property.

I am still waiting for someone to explain who shot the cop if it was not Bill Cooper, If it was Bill Cooper abut in self defense, then why would anyone deny it was him? Sorry if I shook your little tree. I guess you came to an internet forum to NOT converse with people who's ideas just may differ? If you only want to hear from yourself, you do not need the internet for that. This is a forum.

A slightly different point of view
www.rickross.com...
From The Arizona Republic/November 7, 2001

Officers Kill Militia Voice
Deputy Shot

The Arizona Republic/November 7, 2001
By Mark Shaffer

Eagar -- One of the country's most influential militia radio broadcasters was killed early Tuesday in a hail of gunfire when law officers tried to arrest him on a warrant accusing him of aggravated assault.

William Milton Cooper, 58, whose apocalyptic, constitutionalist shortwave radio programs were a major influence on Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, was shot to death after Cooper shot and critically wounded an Apache County sheriff's deputy who had tried to arrest him, officers said.

The officer, Robert Marinez, 40, was listed in critical condition at St Joseph's Hospital and Medical Center in Phoenix.

Apache County Sheriff Brian Hounshell said Marinez, a former Marine and Persian Gulf War veteran, was shot twice in the head by what was believed to be a .45-caliber pistol. The officer was expected to survive, Hounshell said, after undergoing two hours of surgery Tuesday morning. Marinez's skull was fractured, and surgeons removed bone fragments from near his brain, the sheriff said.

Cooper had been indicted on federal charges of failing to pay taxes from 1992 to 1994 and became a fugitive after failing to appear for a U.S. District Court hearing in Phoenix three years ago.

Scott Garms, Eagar's police chief, said he had urged federal law officers to stay away from Cooper's two-story compound, high on a mesa overlooking Round Valley, because militia group members do not recognize the legitimacy of federal law officers.

"We certainly didn't want to make him a martyr," Garms said.

The police chief said the effort to arrest Cooper became a local law enforcement matter in July after Cooper ordered a local man to leave land that Cooper did not own atop the mesa and then followed the man about two miles to his home. Cooper then pulled a gun and pointed it at the man's face, Garms said. That resulted in a warrant for Cooper's arrest.

Seventeen officers were involved in the operation, which started at 11:40 p.m. Monday, Garms and Hounshell said.

Garms said a group of undercover officers in a pickup truck pretended to be "people just acting normal up there at night" in a ruse to draw Cooper out of his house to adjoining property 200 yards away. But Cooper surprised the officers by driving, not walking, to them, and he never left the vehicle during a verbal altercation.

During that confrontation, a second undercover police vehicle drove to Cooper's property line and blocked the road, Garms said. But on the way back to his house, Cooper drove off the side of the road and tried to run over sheriff's Sgt. Steve Brown, who dived out of the way, Hounshell said.

Cooper then parked his vehicle in front of his house, and Marinez followed him toward his front door while admonishing him to surrender, Hounshell said. Near the door, Cooper turned and fired an undetermined number of rounds at Marinez, who was wearing a bulletproof vest but no helmet, Hounshell said, adding that officers had not seen Cooper's handgun before he fired it.

At that point, another sheriff's deputy who had been at the side of Cooper's home, approached Cooper and opened fire. Hounshell said he did not know where or how many times Cooper was struck, saying a state Department of Public Safety shooting-review team had been dispatched to the site. Hounshell declined to identify the officer.

Cooper had said numerous times on his radio show, Hour of the Time, and posted on his Web site, that he had been under siege by "Nazi jackbooted thugs." He also had solicited donations for what he said was his fight against the U.S. government, which he said was responsible for the 1995 bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.

"He had vowed that he would not be taken alive," said Tom McCombs, a spokesman for the U.S. Marshal's Service in Phoenix.

Garms said Cooper's radio show had been off the air for about a month because of a shortage of money. But in one of his last programs, Garms said, Cooper had accused the federal government of the Sept. 11 terrorist attack on the World Trade Center in New York City.

Glenn Jacobs, a Round Valley newspaper publisher and friend of Cooper, said he didn't think the police operation was unjustified.

"I think Bill just went nuts. He was looking for martyrdom anyway and swore he would never surrender," Jacobs said. "They had him dead to rights on the aggravated assault."

Jacobs also said that if the sheriff's deputies had allowed Cooper to enter his house, "they would have had a bloodbath on their hands."

"He kept an AK-47 just inside his front door by a magazine rack," Jacobs said.

A spokesman for a group that tracks militias said the shooting wasn't surprising given Cooper's history. In addition to his show, he was known within the militia movement for an influential book called Behold a Pale Horse, in which he wrote about global elites and conspiracies.

"For more than 3 1/2 years, he had been holed up in his house in Eagar, threatening to kill police officers and federal agents," said Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center. "He was talked about as a guy who talked crazy and made a lot of threats. The reality is that people like him are frequently exceedingly dangerous."

James Nichols, brother of Oklahoma bombing co-defendant Terry Nichols, said during a 1996 court proceeding that McVeigh had been a regular listener of Cooper's programs in the months leading up to the Murrah bombing.

I think Cooper got the idea aliens are insect-like from Dr. Sarbacher.

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by Josephus23
This is disinformation.

That is the first resort of all of Cooper's followers. They accuse everyone who questions Bill Cooper of spreading disinformation or being disinfo agents. Boniouk, me, Don Ecker, Budd Hopkins, anyone and everyone who has called him on his lies.

Originally posted by Josephus23
No one knows what happened...

Yet you then go on to tell us exactly what happened...

You make a lot of claims about "what really happened". Show your work.

[edit on 3-1-2010 by DoomsdayRex]

It is difficult to know what really happened if you were not there the moment he was shot.

Why not use common sence and ask yourself why Bill Cooper would open fire on the police? He was a smart man and aware of his situation with the government and what they can do to turn things in their favour.

Was Bill Cooper suicidal....depressive....or even drunk? He knew that shooting at cops would give them a reason to take him out....as paranoid as he was.

What where the FED's doing there anyway? Did they come with an excuse of suspicion of terrorist activities? Did his body lie there for 18 hours because they dare not enter the houise because of bobytraps...what did they find....? Nothing.

Eveything is in favour to think that Cooper was setup and removed. Killing him in a dark alley would make his matterdom worse than it is so why not use a 'legal' situation.

If you ask me they didn't like his growing numbers of listeners....

reply to post by TruthSeeker8300
I wasn't going to post in this thread. A bunch of Cooper fanboys choosing to believe what he said and not what he was. Despite numerous directions to facts about Cooper...facts...you are incapable of letting it go. Attacking Doomsday Rex is distracting you from actually challenging your belief system.

People that actually knew Bill Cooper have very few good things to say about him. He was a self-confessed liar. John Lear for God's sake! Even John Lear criticised Cooper. George Knapp (respected Ufologist) considers him a drunken liar. Don Ecker (the coward according to you) knew Cooper for years. They were in touch through the old BBS. It's Ufology history. You should know this. Rex knows this. Ecker began to realise that Cooper was making things up.

Essentially, you can't accept the word of people that met and knew the guy. You prefer to cherry-pick your own pieces. That makes you a fool twice over. When school opens on Monday, I suggest you join a debating club...learn some critical thinking...your posts are an embarrassment to ATS!

It isn't 'trash-talking the dead' to point out facts. Cooper was a psychotic, paranoid nutcase. He lost his friends way before he hid away in his compound. People were disturbed by him, not because they couldn't handle 'The Truth,' but because mentally people can be disturbing!

Don Ecker Interview 1

Read a little Cooper history...?

I just noticed this new thread on Cooper and had to comment quickly. (Getting ready to leave for a meeting.) When I get back I will post my investigation into this maniac. ( I conducted the very first expose into Cooper back in 1990. ) He was a lying opportunist, plagiarist, drunk and smear merchant. That should give you a heads up for right now. Decker

PS If Cooper had told me the Sun came up in the morning and the Moon came out at night, I would have gone outside to look.