Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd

Originally posted by pepsi78
reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd

 

There are different reasons why people become vegetarian.
1 Out of fear that meat kills in time and degrades the body.
2 Fitness junkies obssesed with weight and all of the sort.(mostly women)
3 Out of moral obligations.

[edit on 29-12-2009 by pepsi78]

It can be summed up, as I did in the OP, into three categories:

Political Vegetarian--based on the belief that widespread practice of a vegetarian diet would produce a sustainable agriculture and social justice.

Nutritional vegetarian--based on the belief that a vegetarian diet produces better health than an omnivorous diet.

Moral vegetarian--based on the belief that a vegetarian diet reduces bloodshed.

-Dev

What about habitual vegetarian? Those born into it...

I see people talking about if you eat plants it's the same thing as eating animals or similar. Though isn't that how most of the plants survive: by us eating them? Isn't that a plants life? Animals eating them taking their seed and then dropping them somewhere so another tree can grow to do the same.

And another thing which bothers me is that people are saying trees and plants get hurt by us eating them, but doesn't the tree/plant get hurt when winter comes, or when they shed their leaves, or when they drop their fruits, (guess u can say that plants and tree are highly suicidal and need immediate medical attention )so how then are vegetarians harming plants. They're merely following with the cycle and plants and trees.

Originally posted by MacATK18

Originally posted by watcher73
Cows are vegetarian, so where do they get it?

Cows eat grass - yes? Where does grass grow from? The ground, which is FILLED with bacteria. Does that solve the mystery for you?

Some people tend to forget that NOTHING is wasted in nature.. Animals die, rot, are absorbed into the ground which in turns provides more nutrients for plants, which are then eaten by animals who die, rot, are reabsorbed into the ground and so on and so on..
Go watch the lion king, and pay attention to the part where Mufasa explains the circle of life..



[edit on 29-12-2009 by MacATK18]

Did you miss the post I made right after that one? Well here it is in slow motion for you...

It is also produced by bacteria in our intestines (Herbert V. Vitamin B12: Plant sources, requirements, and assay. Am J Clin Nutr 1988; 48: 852-858.). From PubMed: : "...the human small intestine also often harbours a considerable microflora and this is even more extensive in apparently healthy southern Indian subjects. We now show that at least two groups of organisms in the small bowel, Pseudomonas and Klebsiella sp., may synthesise significant amounts of the vitamin."

fail?

Yes, you did.

Originally posted by Nutter

Originally posted by watcher73
Vitamin B12 is made by only one thing in nature, bacteria. Cows are vegetarian, so where do they get it?

Thus, herbivorous animals must either obtain B12 from bacteria in their rumens, or (if fermenting plant material in the hindgut) by reingestion of cecotrope fæces.

Hence why cows have 2 stomachs. And you keep saying I fail?

It is also produced by bacteria in our intestines (Herbert V. Vitamin B12: Plant sources, requirements, and assay. Am J Clin Nutr 1988; 48: 852-858.). From PubMed: : "...the human small intestine also often harbours a considerable microflora and this is even more extensive in apparently healthy southern Indian subjects. We now show that at least two groups of organisms in the small bowel, Pseudomonas and Klebsiella sp., may synthesise significant amounts of the vitamin."

FAIL.

Originally posted by watcher73
The whole problem with this thread is that the OP failed to understand where objective science ended and the subjective scientists opinion began.

Don't start that. I simply asked a question. The science referenced in the article was quite objective, it was merely the article that subjectively reported the findings.

As I've said before, this article was provided as a substrate for the discussion on moral vegetarianism.

-Dev

reply to post by Ominousbeing


I've always thought that myself - about the incentive plants leave animals in the form of fruits so that their seed may be spread.. to me it points to not only an awareness though, but a conscious adaptation.
I also think plants have evolved to the point where pain is useless. What's the point in feeling the "ouch" if you don't have the muscles to move? It would be pointless - only ever to experience suffering and not be able to do anything about it. How is pain a requirement for awareness anyways? Maybe plants have evolved beyond pain..

reply to post by watcher73


Actually you are the one failing because the only way herbivores can extract the amount of B12 they do is because they either have multiple stomachs to break down the double cell walls of plant cells or they have a very long intestinal tract which increases the time that bacteria have to break down the fibre. Some animals (rabbits) also eat their own excrement to get this extra boost

So actually you are the failing one as you quote a small part of a a paper without understanding it Whilst humans absolutely do synthesis some B12 from the action of bacteria in the large intestine (some are in the small but the majority of fibre eating bacteria are in the large intestine) this is often not enough to feed our needs.

But hey what am i doing when people within the vegan community who are honest say this stuff themselves!

Vegan Source Talks About B12

From this website.

The only reliable vegan sources of B12 are foods fortified with B12 (including some plant milks, some soy products and some breakfast cereals) and B12 supplements. Vitamin B12, whether in supplements, fortified foods, or animal products, comes from micro-organisms.

So the way of making sure you don't become defficient is to either supplement or use fortified foods, not simply eat loads of vegetables. There is a good reason why we're omnivores.

Also did you miss my very long and thought out reply including my personal experience with organic farms and having to cull on their land? Or did you simply ignore it because you coudln't reply with any respectable debate? It seems when you disagree with people you call them names and deride their arguments without providing a counter.

Really really dishonest tactics.

[edit on 29-12-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Let me post a last time here and close the Case.

The question was: Eat more animals, because the plants feel pain when they get killed?

1. 1Kg Soja is 1kg Food - So they "killed" 1Kg Soja to get 1Kg of Food.
2. 1Kg Meat needs 10 Kg Soja. So you have to "kill" 10 times more plants to get your meat.

Case Closed.


ps. If you stop eating meat you get: Better shape, more rain forrest, less # of animals, less co2, less "sore conscience" and so on..........

[edit on 29-12-2009 by cushycrux]

[edit on 29-12-2009 by cushycrux]

Originally posted by cushycrux
Let me post a last time here and close the Case.

The question was: Eat more animals, because the plants feel pain when they get killed?

1. 1Kg Soja is 1kg Food - So they "killed" Soja to get 1Kg of Food.
2. 1Kg Meat need 10 Kg Soja. So you have to "kill" 10 times more plants to get your meat.

Case Closed.


ps. If you stop eating meat you get: Better shape, more rain forrest, less # of animals, less co2, less "sore conscience" and so on..........

No not case closed because you are quoting, i believe the figures for beef whereas other meats require less to produce. Further what about eating the animals that are culled so that you get your 10 KG of soya? Should they instead be wasted and thrown away? What about the other things that meat and only meat can provide like coenzyme q10 or creatine?

reply to post by watcher73


I reply to your post about cows and you provide info about the human small intestine.. unless cows have human small intestines then WTF are you talking about? Obviously you saw "fail" a lot at school - maybe that's why its your favorite word?

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by watcher73

 

Actually you are the one failing because the only way herbivores can extract the amount of B12 they do is because they either have multiple stomachs to break down the double cell walls of plant cells or they have a very long intestinal tract which increases the time that bacteria have to break down the fibre. Some animals (rabbits) also eat their own excrement to get this extra boost

So actually you are the failing one as you quote a small part of a a paper without understanding it

Whilst humans absolutely do synthesis some B12 from the action of bacteria in the large intestine (some are in the small but the majority of fibre eating bacteria are in the large intestine) this is often not enough to feed our needs.

But hey what am i doing when people within the vegan community who are honest say this stuff themselves!

Vegan Source Talks About B12

From this website.

The only reliable vegan sources of B12 are foods fortified with B12 (including some plant milks, some soy products and some breakfast cereals) and B12 supplements. Vitamin B12, whether in supplements, fortified foods, or animal products, comes from micro-organisms.

So the way of making sure you don't become defficient is to either supplement or use fortified foods, not simply eat loads of vegetables. There is a good reason why we're omnivores.

Ok you rely on what random people in a vegan community say and I will rely on the scientists.

Your whole post is fail squared. But hey keep going.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


Thank you, your response is appreciated.

Our lifestyle both exist within the confines of the 'money system' of agribusiness-culture...where one produces and one consumes...
Clarifying then, we could add to what is minimal as sustaing from wild sources in nature as much as possible as well.

Good observation!


LOVE

Really really dishonest tactics.

Yes so sorry for being so dishonest as to provide not only a scientific source but one that is literally packed with citations while you honestly provide a random paragraph from some vegan website.

Good day sir.

[edit on 29-12-2009 by watcher73]

reply to post by pepsi78


Can we focus on moral vegetarianism, and not political or nutritional?

-Dev

Originally posted by cushycrux

Your post does not conclude anything, it's missing evidence and scentific data, and it does not serve on why plants feel or don't feel.
Awarnes is connected with the brain, either scientifical or on a spiritual view. Mind/brain, your mind is the spiritual part of the brain. Brain is the computer for turning things in to feelings on a phisical notion.

Just start the atkins diet, eat only meat and you will die in a year or two.

This is not the place to argue nutrition; however, your comment is absolutely false and completely ridiculous.

Think before you press the post button.

[edit on 29-12-2009 by DevolutionEvolvd]

Originally posted by MacATK18
reply to post by watcher73

 

I reply to your post about cows and you provide info about the human small intestine.. unless cows have human small intestines then WTF are you talking about? Obviously you saw "fail" a lot at school - maybe that's why its your favorite word?

It's painfully clear what I was talking about. Maybe go back and re-read it.

And no, no fails at school. Never did any homework either. Never took notes. School was way too easy for me. I can see you didnt have the same problem.

Originally posted by watcher73

Ok you rely on what random people in a vegan community say and I will rely on the scientists.

Your whole post is fail squared. But hey keep going.

Dear sir i also rely on science, i showed you that article to demonstrate that there are honest vegans who understand th science. Further i provided you with facts about how animals like cows are able to process vitamin B12 from food in far greater quantities than humans can. Your reponse is to ignore all of that and try to pick on one small thing you think can be used against me.

I ask you to reply, in full to my post and provide evidence against these facts.


1. Animals like cows have multiple stomachs as this allows them to break down the double cell walls of plant cells. Herbivores also tend to have very long intesinal tracts to give bacteria the time to break down their plant based diets and finally that certain animals actually consume their own excrement in an attempt to reprocess the food and exact the vitamins.

2. Human beings have shorter intestinal tracts much like any other omnivore. Our system is good for digesting meat and vegetables but does not excel in either area. As such our bodies have far less time for the bacteria in our large intestines to break down fibre and release vitamin B12.

[edit on 29-12-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
reply to post by pepsi78

 

Can we focus on moral vegetarianism, and not political or nutritional?

-Dev

I'll repeat myself...

What about habitual vegetarian? Those born into it...

Carrots. Potatoes. Cabbage. Lettuce. All have to be killed to be eaten.

They are non vascular. No nerves.

Tomatoe plants aren't perenial. So they need to be grown from seeds.

Tomatos grow on plats, you don't kill the plant, have you seen a tomato bush, they do grow from seeds but I do not understand your argument.

Cows and pigs are born from other cows and pigs.

Yes but pigs don't grow fruits, you don't colect the fruits of the pig.
The pig is not a tree and now you are telling me there are two entities in one.

One is the tomato bush then it's the tomato that is connected to the branch of the bush So who are the babies ? the tomatos or the seeds?

To see how absurde this is cut a aple in to 60 milion parts then take each part and test it out and you will see each part will still react the same.
So the aple has 60 milion entities each with it's personal character ehh?

Take those 60 milion pices and cut them each in to two parts, you now have 120 milion parts each with feelings, feeling hurt.

So by cuting parts you make more characters, Mister aple A, B ,C and so on and they each defend and they each hurt ?

This is absurde and it has no logic, there is no such thing as an aware tomato. Plants or fruits taken apart still act the same.

If you stab a pig and cut it , it will not act the same, I wonder where the similarity is betwen plant and pig.

So now you are telling me plant has multiple personalities or that
"there are many living in a plant" as in cut us in peaces, we all hurt ?
Or is it just a biological effect/reaction without awarenes.

For a plant to have 120 aware parts each with a mind of it's own is hard to accept.



[edit on 29-12-2009 by pepsi78]

DP removed.

[edit on 29-12-2009 by pepsi78]