Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too

reply to post by LocoHombre


Here's some irony for you...as previously stated, I keep a vegan diet (for scientific reasons...and I take great pains to say that I don't consider myself 'vegan' because I don't like the extremism associated with the term), however, my girlfriend is a proud vegan and animal rights activist...yet my mother is a venison farmer...interesting, no?

Originally posted by Nutter

Originally posted by cushycrux
As you can see here: Vegetarian Athletes - 10 Olympic Champions

ezinearticles.com...

Wow. A whole 10 out of how many again?

Let it be now. It's all o.k. Please don't start a war now. I like you, take it easy. Now, I stop posting in this thread.

~it is peculiar to me how circumstantially ones defenses may be applied in arenas which have little to do with the activities of their own life~

please let us not observe the fallacy that "you do it, me do it" as justifying ones life choices.
walk your path - And Remember the Plants around You Are Alive! & so is EARTH


LOVE

[edit on 29-12-2009 by awake1234]

A strict vegan diet is really healthy

A 12-year-old girl in Scotland brought up by her parents on a strict vegan diet has been admitted to hospital with a degenerative bone condition said to have left her with the spine of an 80-year-old woman.

Doctors are under pressure to report the couple to police and social workers amid concerns that her health and welfare may have been neglected in pursuit of their dietary beliefs.

The girl, who has been fed on a strict meat and dairy-free diet from birth, is said to have a severe form of rickets and to have suffered a number of fractured bones.

opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...

Infants of Vegan Mothers Who Do Not Use B12 Supplements

Since 1980, and excluding the Black Hebrews described below, there have been at least 30 reports of very serious B12 deficiency in vegan mothers' infants whose main or only food was breast milk. This happened only when the mother did not supplement her own or the baby's diet with B12. In many cases, the mother belongs to a subculture which does not believe in supplementation. Lack of B12 in the mother's diet during pregnancy has been shown to cause a severe lack of myelin in nerve tissue.1

www.veganhealth.org...

BTW, that's a vegan site.

I keep reading that vegans have to suppliment their diet or risk malnutrition.

If the vegan way was the right way, why would you need to suppliment your diet?





[edit on 29-12-2009 by Nutter]

reply to post by Nutter


for the same reason anyone living in the nutrient deficient u.s. agribusiness-culture will

Originally posted by watcher73
Because its ignorant. Tell me oh wise one, how do forests not only grow, but last so long if animals just eventually take over and eat all the plant matter? Shouldnt everything be a desert of starving animals by now?

Because animals kill and eat other animals.

Plant Brain: Each root apex harbours a unit of nervous system of plants. The number of root apices in the plant body is high and all brain-units are interconnected via vascular strands (plant nerves) with their polarly-transported auxin (plant neurotransmitter), to form a serial (parallel) nervous system of plants. The computational and informational capacity of this nervous system based on interconnected parallel units is predicted to be higher than that of the diffuse nervous system of lower animals, or the central nervous system of higher animals/humans.

wiki.answers.com...

Still want to argue that plants don't feel pain and/or have a nervous system and brain?

Your article only half way.



Mine has it all.
en.wikipedia.org...

Vascular plants (also known as tracheophytes or higher plants) are those plants that have lignified tissues for conducting water, minerals, and photosynthetic products through the plant. Vascular plants include the ferns, clubmosses, flowering plants, conifers and other gymnosperms. Scientific names for the group include Tracheophyta[2] and Tracheobionta,[3] but neither name is very widely used.[citation needed]

wiki.answers.com...
Nope!!! Some do but not all. All animals do though. Plants that do are called vasculer. Those that don't are invascular. Moss, algea, and others are invascular.

Even if it were true and this nervous system that you speak of could cause pain,I doubt it and anyway only a limited part of the plants have it. I'm not going to start eating tall flowers or herbs.

1
Most plants are not vascular.
www.britannica.com...

2
Most of the time you do not kill the plant, you just take it's fruits and leave it living then next year it provides, like with so many things like tomatos, again, can't do that with a cow or a pig once you cut it's throat can you ?






[edit on 29-12-2009 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by watcher73
I see on that list some of the greatest athletes ever known to have graced the Olympics.

But yet, vegans and vegetarians need to take dietary suppliments. Why is that I wonder?

Originally posted by watcher73

It's not a fact, its something you made up.

No it really is a fact if you understand basic food chains. More food = higher population. Are you honestly trying to debate a scientific fact? I hunt them every single year, i can tell you right now that the populations are higher around farms.

Originally posted by watcher73
Twenty for every fox you people have culled? Have you any idea what would happen to the rabbit population if you stopped culling foxes?

I don't kill foxes. I'm against fox hunting. Oh in my time i have shot the odd fox that gave a farmer a lot of trouble but personally i say leave them alone as they can help control the rabbit population.

Originally posted by watcher73
Not a fact, but youre right in that it is simple.

Again basic science and fod chains here and the only reason to deny, scientific fact is because you can't face it. A higher amount of food for rabbits means their population increases until predation outstrips supply. This really is a basic part of science that is taught in most high schools.

Originally posted by watcher73

The digestion of meat is highly inefficient. Do you have any evidence for these claims you keep making?

Err please just look up vegan vs meat eating bodybuilders, they are literally half the size. I argued this in a previous thread maybe a year back and someone posted pictures.

You can ignore scientific facts in regards to food supply and populatin numbers all you like, this is a well known model. Why exactly do you think it is incorrect that higher availability of food would increase the population size of a species? Further this higher population would then eat more food and then breed more etc until food outstrips the need.

[edit on 29-12-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by Nutter

Originally posted by watcher73
So hooray to you. You went and discovered that jellyfish have nerve nets. You cant tell us whether they feel pain or not and have contributed nothing to either side of the debate.

I would say ANY reaction to any form of touch would be an indication to being able to "feel" pain or not. Animals as well as plants both have this reactionary response.

As far as people saying it takes so much food to feed the animals. Well, what happens when we stop killing the animals? They live......and need to eat more.

Most of the meat consumed by humans these days comes from farmed animals, raised for the market.

Farmers don't raise livestock for fun, they do it for the money. If people stopped eating meat, farmers would stop raising sheep and cattle to butcher.

I'm Australian, and rabbits here are weeds on legs. Anyone eating them is doing the land a favour. However factory farmed animals are a different "kettle of fish".

Originally posted by awake1234

please let us not observe the fallacy that "you do it, me do it" as justifying ones life choices.
walk your path - And Remember the Plants around You Are Alive! & so is EARTH

These are the smartest words in this thread. Respect all life and walk your own path. There is no need to argue over what foods are more humane.

Think of where we come from, and what we ate..

Oh give me a break. Why do ignorant individuals miss the point of being a vegan or even a vegetarian is beyond me.

It's more of Health reasons than political for me, but for most, it's completely political. The truth has been exposed but yet, people just love eating meat. No matter how dangerous it is. Oh well.

Eating plants instead of meat isn't perfect. It's simply the next best thing.

Everyone seems to think that our choice of food stuff is the problem. I prefer to go straight to the source: the human necessity to eat.

If we could genetically engineer ourselves so that eating is no longer a requirement or make enough advances in biotechnology/nanotechnology then is it not possible that we wouldn't need to eat at all?

I firmly believe that nanotechnology will outmode eating. Think of how primitive eating is. We're foodpipes with limbs for goodness sake. Copulation is equally primitive but that's a conversation for another time.

Originally posted by Nutter

If the vegan way was the right way, why would you need to suppliment your diet?

A sound variety based vegan diets require absolutely no supplementation, b12 is the main reasoning to eat meat by most people but this is easily obtainable if you eat bugs in fruit or get unwashed produce from high quality organic soil. Your body also recycles b12 and you can live for many years, perhaps your whole life, without b12 aslong as you have a healthy body. I've also heard from a couple sources that oral sex is a good source to b12 .

Almost all the longest lived people in the world follow a primarily plant based diet so its definitely healthy. The hunzas and vilcamba eat 1% animal products over a year(fermented milk for the most part), okinawans eat about 13% mostly from wild fish and seventh day adventis are lacto-ovo vegetarians.

Just to clear up some misinformation i saw someone post earlier in the thread, meat contains absolutely no essential protien that plants don't contain. Every single fruit actually contains all 8 essential amino acids.

Onto the original topic, If anyone has read the secret life of plants this is old news for the most part. Whats interesting tho is plants seem to respond positively to human consumption, it seems they actually like to be eaten .

Gotta love these threads tho, they are always free entertainment. They seem to bring out the best in ats'rs

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by watcher73

It's not a fact, its something you made up.

No it really is a fact if you understand basic food chains. More food = higher population. Are you honestly trying to debate a scientific fact? I hunt them every single year, i can tell you right now that the populations are higher around farms.

More food = higher population = less food = less population.

Not too good at maths are you?

I don't kill foxes. I'm against fox hunting. Oh in my time i have shot the odd fox that gave a farmer a lot of trouble but personally i say leave them alone as they can help control the rabbit population.

Why not, fox is mighty tasty!

Again basic science and fod chains here and the only reason to deny, scientific fact is because you can't face it. A higher amount of food for rabbits means their population increases until predation outstrips supply. This really is a basic part of science that is taught in most high schools.

Until predation outstrips supply? How about until population outstrips supply. No instead you state it like a neverending expansion of animal life. Fail.

Err please just look up vegan vs meat eating bodybuilders, they are literally half the size. I argued this in a previous thread maybe a year back and someone posted pictures.

Oh the pretty piksures are the proof.

What if I show you a picture of a meat eating bodybuilder that is half the size of another meat eating bodybuilder?

You can ignore scientific facts in regards to food supply and populatin numbers all you like, this is a well known model.

Like the global warming models no doubt.

Why exactly do you think it is incorrect that higher availability of food would increase the population size of a species?

People actually decrease the amount of food by using it to feed animals. We have no problem reproducing.

Further this higher population would then eat more food and then breed more etc until food outstrips the need.

[edit on 29-12-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Huh?

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry
Oh give me a break. Why do ignorant individuals miss the point of being a vegan or even a vegetarian is beyond me.

It's more of Health reasons than political for me, but for most, it's completely political. The truth has been exposed but yet, people just love eating meat. No matter how dangerous it is. Oh well.

If I do become one, I do want to become I will do it because of animals suffering. Each time I go out to buy food I consider it. I try at least to limit my participation in the killing of these animals. I am balanced more and more on the side of becoming a vegetarian. It's not about taste anymore for me, meat tastes good but I can give that up. It's about nutrition. I intend to make out a list and try it out and see how I feel. I do feel disgusted in a way when I go to the market and I see all that meat with blood on it. People don't see it, they chear up for meat like it was Jesus walking around them. It has to do with greed and hypocricy. No one wants to take the hard way out. It's not easy giving up on old habits, but one thing I'm for sure it's not harder than giving up smoking for example.
Harder to quit smoking than to become a vegetarian.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Even if it were true and this nervous system that you speak of could cause pain,I doubt it and anyway only a limited part of the plants have it. I'm not going to start eating tall flowers or herbs.

You only doubt it because it goes against your belief system.

Most of the time you do not kill the plant, you just take it's fruits and leave it living then next year it provides, like with so many things like tomatos, again, can't do that with a cow or a pig once you cut it's throat can you ?

Carrots. Potatoes. Cabbage. Lettuce. All have to be killed to be eaten.

Tomatoe plants aren't perenial. So they need to be grown from seeds.

Cows and pigs are born from other cows and pigs.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Err please just look up vegan vs meat eating bodybuilders, they are literally half the size.

End of thread. He has seen the piksures. Case closed.

Move on, nothing to see here, except the piksures.

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


"Life feeds on life...this is necessary!" MJK of Tool.

Originally posted by Kailassa
I'm Australian, and rabbits here are weeds on legs. Anyone eating them is doing the land a favour. However factory farmed animals are a different "kettle of fish".

I do agree with factory farmed animals being bad for us. That is why I try my hardest to only eat free ranged animals.

But, this thread is about plants, veganism and the morality of eating plants when plants feel pain too.