Woman jumps barrier, knocks down pope at Christmas Eve mass, Vatican says

Originally posted by Xtrozero


You know what?

I agree with everything you said above except for I don't care if Mormons do missionary work when they are young, but if they do that work and do it by any of your examples I has issues with that too. I do not practice any of their religions and I do not care to here a lecture from them on it.

Above are perfect examples of people going well beyond any reasonable limit.

Then you need to ask one of your many Mormon friends what it is they do on this mission. Get back to me when you find out and see if it fits that list when you know what kind of mission it is.

Originally posted by Lillydale

You claimed that Atheists perceive being wish a merry xmas as some sort of force. I listed real force. You responded that you do not mind hearing merry xmas and that it is a shame I see that as being forced something. Maybe you missed my very short list of things that do NOT include being wished a merry xmas.

I really hope you get it.

Yes I get it now.... you wanted to show me examples where you saw religion as actually forced and not just perceived. You listed examples, but you didn’t really explain what you were getting at.

Originally posted by 13579

May I ask are there any non religious influences that are forced on you too?

sure.. bank holidays

but then again i kinda like them but its not "forced" because they have nothing to do with religion?

easter
christamas

are forced upon me as LAW.. even when you should know that jesus was not born on the 25 of december

same with "easter" that is also a pagan fistive holiday

Im not sure you know your history so well?

Why yes I do know all this...and more...lots of paganism in there, for you see the church matched up Christianity with pagan holy days...made it much easier to turn the masses....

you are aware that the calander we use in the west "so called west" is the gagorian callander ?

Jesus was born some time july mate not december

just for your information

"dont hold me down on the month" but its sure as hell aint december "because thats roman"

and we know what the romans did dont we my little bible reader?

You must take me for a bible thumber...I'm not, and yes I do know this too... lol

now you know why i hate people who say one thing and dont bother to ask and blindly follow people as the "pope" and sex offenders..

I don't blindly do anything and I'm not catholic, but I will respect a man that tries to do good. I don't think there was any need to the negative posts about the Pope as there seems to be.

We can rename Christmas and Merry Christmas to Winter Holiday and happy holiday, but it is still there. It is a part of both of our countries since their beginnings (for better or worst) even if you personally do not believe.

i could rape someone and still say merry christamass would that make any sens logicaly?

True, so maybe it is not what you say but how you live your life.

And i dont even see why we have laws in the first place.. other than to be controlled and conditioned to THINK.

Man is a predator by nature, and we have never really moved away from that. There are places in the world with no laws...not nice places to be...

thats the problem, its a BIG daydream of epic "purity" when you your self are just as much as a "sinner" as i am

only thing is I admit it you dont. and thats what makes me sick

ya everyone sins, so to speak.... who doesn't admit it? it happens, but some people spend a life long struggle not to where other embrace it as their way of life... lets just replace the word sin for lack of morals

reply to post by nixie_nox

Just because someone is a senior doesn't give a jail out of free card. We are still chasing down Nazi leaders. Should we let them go as well?

How about Herr Krupp of Krupp Industries. He should have been hung with the best Nazi generals but did not. What did he do? Plenty. If you read the following book it will open your eyes. It did mine. Amazing story of how Money Rules.

THE ARMS OF KRUPP 1587-1968

This is a major historical account of a 400-year-old dynasty that armed Germany in three major wars and influenced the course of German and European history for centuries. They were the Third Reich's first family; and they were Europe's richest and most powerful family. Their cannon won the Franco-Prussian war at Sedan in 1870; in 1871 they invented the first antiaircraft gun - to shoot down observation balloons. For forty years they manufactured submarines, beginning with the U-1 that menaced Allied ships and shipping. In WWI their mammoth weapons pulverized Verdun and shelled Paris at a range of 81 miles. Re-arming secretly after Versailles, by 1926 they had perfected the Panzers which were to overrun France, and in 1940 their cannon actually shelled England across the English Channel. The Krupps armed the forces of the Kaiser and of Hitler and financed Hitler's "Terror Election" of 1933. During the Nazi era the Krupps ruled 138 privately owned concentration camps, and Hitler honored their loyalty by decreeing special tax exemptions which continued to be binding in postwar West Germany. They survived a Nuremberg conviction to become the dynamo behind Europe's Common Market. Manchester spent many months in Germany researching what is considered the definitive account of the Krupps and their firm, which came to be called the "Anvil of the Reich". The author conducted interviews in seven countries, examined thousands of letters and the transcript of Alfried Krupp's war crimes trial at Nuremburg.

How about a really famious person. Werner von Braun? OK guy, got the US space program off the ground. But he was a SS officer!!!!

In private, however, von Braun was willing to talk. When an acquaintance wrote him about the accusations, von Braun replied, “... yes, I was a member of the Nazi party and the SS. I would appreciate it if you would treat this as confidential ... for the sake of NASA.”

Braun

And they hunt today for 80 year old guards because he laughed at prisoners!!! (I found this by accident looking for info on the Hitler and Occult thread)

Guard

I know we can argue he deserves it. Yes he does. But where are the HIGH Level guys. My guess they are getting pensions in Germany or while living quietly in Chile

This guy gets the boot because he is a poor Ukrainian-born schmuck living in Canada. I suspect there's more of them there as many Nazi supporting Ukrainians went there (Soviets were after them).




[edit on 27-12-2009 by shakespear1]

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Yes I get it now.... you wanted to show me examples where you saw religion as actually forced and not just perceived. You listed examples, but you didn’t really explain what you were getting at.

Please tell me you are joking. How can I even pretend to take that seriously. Where is your 'jk' or 'sarcasm?' All I ever did was explain that I do not care for people FORCING their religion on others. In fact, it was so clear when I said it, you spent a couple pages arguing with me about it. It is cool. Either you are joking or I can put you on ignore. Let me know.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by Angus123

When I stated that's not the case and why you simply shifted to a new argument. Now you're just babbling about majority rule and how generous christians are. Well the founders knew majority rule in matters of faith would lead to theocracy and put safeguards in place to prevent it. And so what if they give to charity. They hold the world back by clinging to their superstitions.

Well cling to them. Wallow in them. Take delight in your delusions.
But keep it out of my government.

[edit on 27-12-2009 by Angus123]

What "safeguards"?

You can't possibly be serious...
If that was an honest question, go bother someone else.

reply to post by Angus123


I just had to star your answer... very well said.

Now.. Eradown, fellow sheep... did you send this message only to me or to every member in ATS?

"This a really classy man. Anyone of any faith different from his must forgive him when he and his buddies threaten to drug them or they will go to a hell he claims he does not believe. Keep an eye on him. Children and vulnerable adults post and read this site. This animal posting under the name of FRaternitasSaturni is here to hurt people."

Like I said in my reply... Are you an idiot?

I am an animal yes, a rational one... same cannot be said of you, you little piece of sheet... listen here sheep, I didnt claim anything about hell... I said that you're a little sheety extremist christian and if you believe in hell then you'll certainly will end up there because of your misconduct according to your own faith and beliefs, towards your other "fellow men", for "all men are created equal". You have rules you have to go by little man... I dont. I have no strings. I have no heaven nor hell, I havent heard of anything that will doom or save my soul... you're the one who should be "all loving" and crap. I'm just free... like I said before, I bow to no man nor god.

Once again, when one person doesnt agree with you, you take revenge. And your revenge came in the form of a mass-u2u? lol... and you think anyone cares about what one little sheety fanatic says?

You give out the biggest mind-numbing, mind control drug and you call me a "danger"? Children as Adults have the right to keep away from people like you that carry the message of love written in the blade of a sword.

You are either a false religious person, using faith to shape people around you using "wrath" or you're just an inconsequential ignorant doing the wrong things and having the wrong attitudes thinking hes appeasing his god... both of them have been a constant in the atrocities commited in the "name of god".

For me tho, you're just a little man, in fear of everything and everyone and at the slightest sign of threat, you take your revenge using little, underground and mean methods to discredit others. You are just weak... and this world is made of "animals" like me... and guess what, this is still the survival of the fittest - you have no place amongst us - please move to an island along with all the people who think like you, so we all can carpet bomb you and rid the world of your poison.

You're not worthy of the air you breed, the earth you step, or the fellow animals that help you and love you.

reply to post by Xtrozero

What god was it that drove Russia after they outlawed religion in the deaths of 80 plus million?

The very same one that created that mind set in the first place... Just because you think "god" is a man thats your problem and misconception of what "belief" in fact is.

and how it gets stuck in ones head. Religion is akin to a CULT system in fact it is.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Yes I get it now.... you wanted to show me examples where you saw religion as actually forced and not just perceived. You listed examples, but you didn’t really explain what you were getting at.

Found out what Mormon's do on that mission yet? I ask because it is actually pretty important to this. You try to tell me that people do not go door to door pushing religion on others. You also claimed to have many Mormon friends. My friends know what I did from 19-25 years of age. 6 years is a long time to bother other people and it never came up? See, you pretended you did not say what I said you said...until I showed you that you did. You pretended not to understand me, even though your replies show that you did. Now you insist that I am just trying to make some random nonsense point without being clear. Grab a book and read up. Every single post you have made on religion in this thread has something in it that is incorrect.

Originally posted by Lillydale

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Yes I get it now.... you wanted to show me examples where you saw religion as actually forced and not just perceived. You listed examples, but you didn’t really explain what you were getting at.

Please tell me you are joking. How can I even pretend to take that seriously. Where is your 'jk' or 'sarcasm?' All I ever did was explain that I do not care for people FORCING their religion on others. In fact, it was so clear when I said it, you spent a couple pages arguing with me about it. It is cool. Either you are joking or I can put you on ignore. Let me know.

This was your first post to me that you quoted my post that was a reply to someone else. This is the post that started our dialog, and as you can see you explain nothing in it, but give examples that I wasn’t sure if they were personal examples or just ones you just thought of, since we had no dialog prior to this post to maybe get the ball rolling in the right direction.

How about trying to LEGISLATE MANDATORY CHRISTMAS IN SCHOOLS?

Abstinence only training funded by tax dollars even though it has proven a monumental failure?

Showing up at the funerals of fallen soldiers to protest and proclaim that god wanted him dead because gay people exist.

Coming to my door to tell me that I am wrong. I am a sinner. I am going to go to hell if I do not let you in and tell me how horrible I am.

I can go on.

In my experience I have witnessed Atheist that feel forced on every time they get even close to anything religious, and as example, my one friend who is an Atheist complained and argued with me for three days (and I didn’t even want to debate with him five minutes) about how his rights were abused because some girl tried to give him a religious pamphlet at college, even when he said “no” and she stopped. He decided to take it a step further and get in her face about “how dare you infringe on my privacy”. I told him he was in the wrong, hence the three days….
It is this type of example I see in many Atheist that are hyper sensitive to anything religious around them. My first post was not directed at you in any way and I can see you are not like this, so it doesn’t apply with you.

Originally posted by Angus123
When I stated that's not the case and why you simply shifted to a new argument. Now you're just babbling about majority rule and how generous christians are. Well the founders knew majority rule in matters of faith would lead to theocracy and put safeguards in place to prevent it. And so what if they give to charity. They hold the world back by clinging to their superstitions.

Well cling to them. Wallow in them. Take delight in your delusions.
But keep it out of my government.



What "safeguards"?


You can't possibly be serious...
If that was an honest question, go bother someone else.

Well I'm not sure what you are talking about...

I can assume you mean “separation of church and state” which many people tend to think was setup to keep religion out of politics, but that is not the case.

Our forefathers were a religious bunch of guys, were they not? (except for a couple). They escape from England where the church was run, controlled and influenced by the state, but they didn’t want the state involved in the church hence the freedom of religion we have in America.

There is religion all though our government since day one, our forefathers, as I said, were religious and had no issues with it, but they wanted to protect religion from the state, not the other way around as some want to believe…

“In god we trust” and a vast number of other religious influence was put into our government by our forefathers, it’s there, it’s a part of who we are, it’s a part of our history and culture.

The key to all this is our forefather ensured we will never have a state run religion which would prevent one of our fundamental beliefs of “freedom of religion”.


[edit on 27-12-2009 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by Lillydale




Found out what Mormon's do on that mission yet? I ask because it is actually pretty important to this. You try to tell me that people do not go door to door pushing religion on others.

Hmm you once again want to stove pipe my replies into your own wording and here is a quote from one of my posts that was a reply to some of your examples....

Above are perfect examples of people going well beyond any reasonable limit.

You also claimed to have many Mormon friends. My friends know what I did from 19-25 years of age. 6 years is a long time to bother other people and it never came up? See, you pretended you did not say what I said you said...until I showed you that you did. You pretended not to understand me, even though your replies show that you did. Now you insist that I am just trying to make some random nonsense point without being clear. Grab a book and read up. Every single post you have made on religion in this thread has something in it that is incorrect.

Ok...hehe you lost me here somewhat...I think we are kicking a dead horse. I agreed with your last two post, so I'm confused as to what point you are trying to make.

I do know Mormons do missionary work in their late teens early 20s. I understand this because I see them on their bikes in their white shirts and ties, but I really care less what they do since I do not follow, believe, or care to understand their religion or version of christianly. I’m not, nor have I tried to defend their beliefs. I just stated I was able to live in harmony with a family of them as a neighbor, nothing more.

Lol so stop beating me with a Mormon stick… geez



[edit on 27-12-2009 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by 13579
reply to post by Xtrozero

 

What god was it that drove Russia after they outlawed religion in the deaths of 80 plus million?

The very same one that created that mind set in the first place... Just because you think "god" is a man thats your problem and misconception of what "belief" in fact is.

and how it gets stuck in ones head. Religion is akin to a CULT system in fact it is.

Wait, so are you saying that religion is the root of everything evil that man does no matter what the motivator is?

If you do believe that than you know little of your follow man and what he is capable of.

Originally posted by Lillydale
There are also Mormons. Look into it as they HAVE to do this as part of their religious rites.
[edit on 12/27/09 by Lillydale]

Umm just to clear something up, being a 'mormon' myself (non practicing as in I dont go to church anymore but i still follow some of its teachings such as no smoking, alcohol etc)

To be clear they arent 'rites', just like midnight mass for Catholics isnt a rite, and as such you DONT have to serve on a mission, whoever or where ever you heard that is wrong and are talking out their backsides.

I never served on a mission when I turned 18 as a personal choice, so did others, sure my wards bishop and some of the other elders where a little concerned about me not wanting to do one and there was a couple of people who treated me differently due to my choice but that was more a personal act on those particular individuals (you get stuck ups in all walks of life) but they took my choice as my choice and let it be.

Some members do get it in their head that you have to have their children do a missions once they hit 18 or it becomes a kind of prestige thing for some families but it aint compulsory, and it doesnt stop you from getting a temple recommend or going to the temple or any other aspect of being a LDS member.

Be careful where you get your info about LDS, some people have tried to make up some real bizzare crap or they 'hear' something from a friend whos cousins a member about us thats laughable to discredit the members and the organisation, sure some stuff we believe or do might seem odd to other Christian churchs, and I do believe there are and where some issues the church hasnt handled well or tried to brush aside in the past... but while no longer an acting member, I still respect them and their beliefs they're a good bunch of people, where also alot more tolerant of other religions than other religions are tolerant about us and each other.

Just thought id clear up that "They HAVE to serve a mission as a rite" rubbish, sorry about the off topic post.

edit:- on a side note, the Church in New Zealand is a little less rigid than in America, even so there isnt much difference, apart from the American members probably being slightly more insular..


[edit on 27-12-2009 by BigfootNZ]

reply to post by Xtrozero


Wow... I guess you were serious. So like I said, waste someone else's time.

Originally posted by Angus123
reply to post by Xtrozero

 

Wow... I guess you were serious. So like I said, waste someone else's time.

Yep, guess so......

Ok NP

Originally posted by Xtrozero
This was your first post to me that you quoted my post that was a reply to someone else. This is the post that started our dialog, and as you can see you explain nothing in it, but give examples that I wasn’t sure if they were personal examples or just ones you just thought of, since we had no dialog prior to this post to maybe get the ball rolling in the right direction.

Um...ok. Please try with me here.

I stated VERY CLEARLY with my list that those were what I considered examples of people forcing their religion on others. I have no idea why you would need more context now to go back and understand better. If you did not understand, why did you argue?

You are backing up here and nothing more. You knew very well what I meant. It was what started the dialog. You mocked the idea of 'forced' religion and I gave you examples.

What was there to be confused about?

What did you think I was listing? Why don't you read your first response back to me. I have provided it back to you once already. Please stop this nonsense now. You are lying or playing a game but the only way you are sincere is if someone else is using your SN and you are failing to see what they posted in your absence. I was very clear what my list of examples was for. It was response to what you said. My next response along with yours shows that at this point, either you damn well got what I was talking about or just started arguing because you liked looking at my avatar. Neither one seems honest anymore.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by Lillydale




Found out what Mormon's do on that mission yet? I ask because it is actually pretty important to this. You try to tell me that people do not go door to door pushing religion on others.

Hmm you once again want to stove pipe my replies into your own wording and here is a quote from one of my posts that was a reply to some of your examples....

Above are perfect examples of people going well beyond any reasonable limit.

Listen. You are the Mormon expert with all the Mormon friends. You told me you never saw them do this and they you did not think they did. I asked you to actually look into it. I see that real research is beyond you and you would rather just argue blindly.

Sorry but if you will not even do the most basic research when claiming to have such a great inside track on the truth, then I cannot help you.

Pay attention to your posts. I need not use my own words. I have quoted you in every post and replied to said quotes. If I leave the quotes out, it is because I can only reply to so much blatant ignorance. I have not traded my words for yours ever. Bolding quotes exactly as they are is not changing your words. I see the ignore button getting larger and larger.

You are no longer even making sense so if this is fun for you, have it with another poster please. If you really have something to say, get to it and try not to contradict yourself or pretend you did not read things you already responded to.

Just a little intellectual honesty goes a long way toward making a real point.





[edit on 12/28/09 by Lillydale]

Originally posted by BigfootNZ

Originally posted by Lillydale
There are also Mormons. Look into it as they HAVE to do this as part of their religious rites.
[edit on 12/27/09 by Lillydale]

Umm just to clear something up, being a 'mormon' myself (non practicing as in I dont go to church anymore but i still follow some of its teachings such as no smoking, alcohol etc)

To be clear they arent 'rites', just like midnight mass for Catholics isnt a rite, and as such you DONT have to serve on a mission, whoever or where ever you heard that is wrong and are talking out their backsides.

I did not say they had to do this. It is a choice for them to do this. I said that. If you do not use the word 'rite' then go for it. That does not change what practicing Mormons are encouraged and often do do.

I never served on a mission when I turned 18 as a personal choice, so did others, sure my wards bishop and some of the other elders where a little concerned about me not wanting to do one and there was a couple of people who treated me differently due to my choice but that was more a personal act on those particular individuals (you get stuck ups in all walks of life) but they took my choice as my choice and let it be.

Like I said, I know it is a choice. It is a choice when you are 19, not 18.

Some members do get it in their head that you have to have their children do a missions once they hit 18 or it becomes a kind of prestige thing for some families but it aint compulsory, and it doesnt stop you from getting a temple recommend or going to the temple or any other aspect of being a LDS member.

You are going to have to tell the Mormons that come to my home each and every year that they really need to start doing it at 18 instead of 19 like the church tells them. If only more non-practicing people were here to correct me.

Just thought id clear up that "They HAVE to serve a mission as a rite" rubbish, sorry about the off topic post.

I guess you are going to have to show me where you pull that quote from since I acknowledged it is a CHOICE when I first brought it up!

edit to add that I think your problem is context. What word would you like to use instead of 'rite.'

This is exactly what I said - "Look into it as they HAVE to do this as part of their religious rites." Nowhere did I say all Mormons must take this 'rite.' Pick the word you like and we can go from there but I never said ALL MORMONS SERVE ON MISSIONS. I said it was something they must do as a part of THAT RITE - if they chose to take on that rite. You use different words, cool. My logic, point, and information is all still correct. Thanks anyway.

[edit on 12/28/09 by Lillydale]

Originally posted by Lillydale
Originally posted by Xtrozero
This was your first post to me that you quoted my post that was a reply to someone else. This is the post that started our dialog, and as you can see you explain nothing in it, but give examples that I wasn’t sure if they were personal examples or just ones you just thought of, since we had no dialog prior to this post to maybe get the ball rolling in the right direction.

Um...ok. Please try with me here.

I stated VERY CLEARLY with my list that those were what I considered examples of people forcing their religion on others.

I'm not backing up from any of my posts, You post your examples, and I took it as your generic examples of forced religion, you later explain they were personal experiences, and I later agreed with you that if people push their religion on you as you said they did then they are wrong....end of story

My point was that many Atheists are hyper sensitive and see any form of religion around them as “Forced” on them.

If you are not like this then don’t assume the post was about you.

I was very clear what my list of examples was for.

No, very clear would be to start your post with something like "Well I have had religion forced on me and here some personal examples"

Or something along those lines...but it took a few counter posts from you to finally get the point of how your examples actually related to you. If you explained somewhat I would bet our dialog would have gone in a different direction...as it did once you went a little more in-depth.

In my first post to you and as I do think still, your examples are not the norm, and extremist whether religious or non-religious are all wrong. Your examples to me are examples of extremist where the vast majorities are not.





[edit on 28-12-2009 by Xtrozero]