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Woman jumps barrier, knocks down pope at Christmas Eve mass, Vatican says

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posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 12:52 AM
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reply to post by Xtrozero
 


You laughed at what you seemed to think the idea of "forcing religion" was. I clearly stated that I was then giving you examples of exactly what I mean by that term. I could not have been more clear. I said this is what forcing religion is and then listed examples. If you need more than that, you need more than I have offer.




posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 12:59 AM
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Originally posted by Lillydale

Listen. You are the Mormon expert with all the Mormon friends. You told me you never saw them do this and they you did not think they did. I asked you to actually look into it. I see that real research is beyond you and you would rather just argue blindly.


Ok I never said "I never seen them do this" here is my exact post



Well true, I don't know their ways though, but I have met both and both have come to my door at times over the past 50 years and I give a polite no thank you and they move on...


Kind of different than what you say I said...




Sorry but if you will not even do the most basic research when claiming to have such a great inside track on the truth, then I cannot help you.


Do you even read my posts?

What inside track or knowledge have I claimed to have? I gave an example of my experience living next to a morman family, I said I don't care what they do on their missions, but if they "force" religion on you then they are wrong...here I'll post my exact words....



I don't care if Mormons do missionary work when they are young, but if they do that work and do it by any of your examples I has issues with that too.


once again not really what you suggest I'm saying...



I have not traded my words for yours ever. Bolding quotes exactly as they are is not changing your words. I see the ignore button getting larger and larger.



I'm really not trying to fight with you, but you don't quote me when you use words like “never, always etc. for I don't use absolutes….


[edit on 28-12-2009 by Xtrozero]



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 01:11 AM
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Originally posted by Lillydale

You laughed at what you seemed to think the idea of "forcing religion" was. I clearly stated that I was then giving you examples of exactly what I mean by that term. I could not have been more clear. I said this is what forcing religion is and then listed examples. If you need more than that, you need more than I have offer.


I'm not laughing at you or anyone....

I can counter any argument by designing my own situations, and I see it all the time here on ATS.

Five atheists beat me up when I was 15…. I was kicked out of college because I’m religious….I wasn’t allowed to say a silent prayer….

I can create many situations out of my head to fit my need, as can anyone else. You stated that these are your personal experiences, and I believe you and agreed with you that they were wrong in doing so.

I’m not sure what else you want from me…


Added point:

Your view of "forced religion” and another person's view of "forced" will many times be different, as I gave with my example of my friend who felt "forced religion" on him because someone wanted to hand him a religious pamphlet.

[edit on 28-12-2009 by Xtrozero]



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 01:19 AM
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Originally posted by Xtrozero

I'm not laughing at you or anyone....

I can counter any argument by designing my own situations, and I see it all the time here on ATS.

Five atheists beat me up when I was 15…. I was kicked out of college because I’m religious….I wasn’t allowed to say a silent prayer….

I can create many situations out of my head to fit my need, as can anyone else. You stated that these are your personal experiences, and I believe you and agreed with you that they were wrong in doing so.

I’m not sure what else you want from me…

Everything I mentioned is a part of some religious doctrine somewhere. You can check these things out. You can learn about them, research them, etc. I cannot do any of that about your made up Atheism stories. No one beat you up in the name of Atheism. No one was wearing tradition Atheist garb so you knew who they did or did not believe in. Oh, right, you made it up.

Sorry but I cannot check your fake stories out. You can actually look into everything I said and see that it really happens, all the time. Sorry if you refuse to do even the most basic research and have to resort to making things up. I think that closes this case.



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 01:30 AM
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Originally posted by Lillydale

Sorry but I cannot check your fake stories out. You can actually look into everything I said and see that it really happens, all the time. Sorry if you refuse to do even the most basic research and have to resort to making things up. I think that closes this case.



Wow, my stories are examples of what a person can do....lol ok... I'm not resorting to making things up.

Let me ask you a question though. How many times a year do the Mormons or others come to your door about religion? To be very honest, and it might be where I have lived, though I have lived all over the US, I have had maybe 10 times in my life that someone has knocked on my door to push their religion, and none of them did I feel “forced” on though I did feel a little inconvenient.



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 01:38 AM
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Originally posted by Xtrozero
Wow, my stories are examples of what a person can do....lol ok... I'm not resorting to making things up.


Just reading what you said yourself -

I can counter any argument by designing my own situations, and I see it all the time here on ATS.

I can create many situations out of my head to fit my need, as can anyone else.



Let me ask you a question though. How many times a year do the Mormons or others come to your door about religion?


It varies from year to year as well as by my willingness to even attempt to be nice by the 4th or 5th time.


To be very honest, and it might be where I have lived, though I have lived all over the US, I have had maybe 10 times in my life that someone has knocked on my door to push their religion, and none of them did I feel “forced” on though I did feel a little inconvenient.


That is just super. Then you can deal with tax funded abstinence only teaching, mandating religious holidays be practiced by ALL in public schools. There is a reason I gave you more than just the hassle of people banging on my door uninvited.



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 01:45 AM
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It is obvious that the debate has developed in a way that has NOTHING to do with the topic, but in my opinion there are too many important points being made from BOTH sides, and since i live in Italy, here are my two cents.
First of all: to make "religion" as some MANDATORY matter at school (as it has been until very recently here) IS a way to force beliefs, and it's something far away from the freedom of thought.
When you start teaching to a 6 Y.O. child that there's NO ONE out there but THAT God, and keep spreading the same directions for eight years, then of course you are forcing him. If Giordano Bruno's execution is covered in just two lines in a storybook and you keep being bombed with stuff that has NOTHING to do with the intellectual growth for eight years, then there's obviously something very wrong.
When i was child, religion was mandatory, and the whole December was dedicated to the story of Christ: it didn't help me with my life, trust me: there wasn't debate, there weren't questions: just a load of prefabricated answers. And all the ones that for some reasons were in disagreement, or somehow staying out of the flock, were considered crazy, idiots or very strange people to say the very least, even according to the teachers.
This is hard fact, that i've lived myself, in first person.
Today i DO believe in God, but of course it didn't happen because of the thousand hours i have been FORCED to "learn" religion.
And you know, my take on God has nothing to do with what Vatican says, or is

Actually, within Vatican ALWAYS happened cases of:
  • Paedophilia
  • Murder
  • Bribery
  • Kidnapping
  • Cover - up
    and many, many other faults, including being the strongest brake to the evolution of sciences, especially astronomy, story and medicine.
    But there are many ways to feel close to God:
    i have been helping a missionary in northern Argentina, for one year, 2006. He was a priest leading a group of Hogares, close to Salta: in each Hogar there were at least 150 children whom parents were missing, dead, jailed and so on. Believe me when i say to you that teaching religion was very low in the list of his priorities: at half past seven he was used to celebrate mass, that's all. We had to find money, to drive them to school, to clean their clothes and their rooms, to cook, and many many other things. Every now and then some of them passed away.
    Well, that priest can be safetly called an holy man, as well as many other men, unrelated to religion, can.
    It is not by sitting your ass and calling some superior entity that you will help this world: all you have to do is HELP. Many believe that only rich people can help, but that's plain wrong: everyone can, especially those who know what poverty and pain are.

    So why to debate about who's right and who's wrong in believing or not believing?
    In my view, the people can be divided into two categories: good ones and bad ones, regardless the color of their skin, their sexual orientation, their political orientation, their beliefs: period.



  • posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 01:58 AM
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    Originally posted by Lillydale
    That is just super. Then you can deal with tax funded abstinence only teaching, mandating religious holidays be practiced by ALL in public schools.



    Abstinence only teaching.... I really don't rely on the school system very much to teach my kids everything they need. I do know that abstinence is the ONLY 100% birth/disease control out there, and I can’t say it is purely a religious based idea.

    With that said every kid is different and will take to sexuality differently, some will mature very fast and will need counseling in birth control, abstinence, protection etc whiles many others will not. With my kids I will modify their learning with what they need based on their sexuality or lack of.

    What I don’t want to see is a teacher putting a condom on a rubber penis and going in-depth into all areas of human sex with my ten year old, so somewhere I hope there is a happy middle.


    What religious holidays are you talking about?



    posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 02:07 AM
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    Originally posted by Xtrozero

    Abstinence only teaching.... I really don't rely on the school system very much to teach my kids everything they need.


    Why do I keep coming back? I do not care as much about what the school teaches your kid as I do the school giving bad info to MY KID. More importantly, I do not want to pay for it. I do not get to opt out of school taxes. I do not want my tax dollars teaching religious dogma to my children in the U.S.A.


    I do know that abstinence is the ONLY 100% birth/disease control out there, and I can’t say it is purely a religious based idea.


    Abstinence only teaching is where they refuse to teach kids about safe sex. The result has been a rise in sexually transmitted disease. Moral superiority gets in the way of the reality of the result. Kids still have sex when they have abstinence only teaching, they just have sex without condoms because they do not understand the need for them.

    Please stop trying to discuss things you know nothing of if you are not even going to attempt to look into them and learn a little something first.



    With that said every kid is different and will take to sexuality differently, some will mature very fast and will need counseling in birth control, abstinence, protection etc whiles many others will not. With my kids I will modify their learning with what they need based on their sexuality or lack of.


    Your views on sexuality are really unnecessary, unwanted, and irrelevant. I do not pay school taxes so they can preach religious dogma in school. Bottom line. I am trying to be as simple for you as possible.


    What I don’t want to see is a teacher putting a condom on a rubber penis and going in-depth into all areas of human sex with my ten year old, so somewhere I hope there is a happy middle.


    It is called PRIVATE SCHOOL and you have every right to send you child to one.



    What religious holidays are you talking about?


    Christmas.



    posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 05:46 AM
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    Originally posted by internos
    In my view, the people can be divided into two categories: good ones and bad ones, regardless the color of their skin, their sexual orientation, their political orientation, their beliefs: period.



    I agree 100%



    posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 05:50 AM
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    Originally posted by Lillydale

    It is called PRIVATE SCHOOL and you have every right to send you child to one.



    Hmm so do you....



    posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 08:35 AM
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    Boy did this one go way off topic........not very interesting reading either, just some interesting observations to be made about topics/members.

    [edit on 28-12-2009 by adifferentbreed]



    posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 10:02 AM
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    Originally posted by Xtrozero

    Originally posted by Lillydale

    It is called PRIVATE SCHOOL and you have every right to send you child to one.



    Hmm so do you....


    Hmmmmmmmmm no I do not.

    This is either a complete lack of reading comprehension or a bad joke but it is getting really old, really fast. Do you have anything real to add at all or are you just going to respond to every one of my posts with further proof that you are not following along, reading what you reply to, or even attempting to learn about the subjects you speak of.

    No, I DO NOT ALSO HAVE THIS CHOICE. If you need to go read my posts 10 times before responding next time, please do if that is what it takes to respond to the things I have actually said and the way the world really works.



    posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 05:48 PM
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    Originally posted by Lillydale
    This is exactly what I said - "Look into it as they HAVE to do this as part of their religious rites." Nowhere did I say all Mormons must take this 'rite.' Pick the word you like and we can go from there but I never said ALL MORMONS SERVE ON MISSIONS. I said it was something they must do as a part of THAT RITE - if they chose to take on that rite. You use different words, cool. My logic, point, and information is all still correct. Thanks anyway.


    Ummm but saying they 'HAVE to' do this as part of their religous rites, is saying its mandatory and outside of choice... you used the words 'HAVE to' in that statement... thats what i was correcting you on. And as to saying 'I said it was something they must do as a part of THAT RITE - if they chose to take on that rite'... thats like saying in order to eat, you have to stick food in your mouth... of course you do thats common sense, you can still choose not to eat.

    If you WANT to serve a mission you serve one, which contradicts your use of 'HAVE to' and 'part of their religious rites' later in the sentence, notice the plural on 'rites'... which sort of makes it out like your saying its tied to other aspects of the church. Which is wrong, not serving doesnt put any limit on you.

    I was primarily pointing out poor use of your wording that conveyed a completely wrong idea about an aspect of my ex church... when talking about such things no matter who its about its best to get your facts across correct, otherwise you can cause all sorts of misunderstandings.

    Question is how did 'Mormons' end up getting into this thread about Catholics anyhow?..

    **goes back to reread a little, but he thinks its something to do with door knocking**.. what that has to do with Catholics I dont know


    Edit:- Oh and Lillydale my posts are in no way an attack on you, I agree with you about what the threads actually about, ie the Vatican/Pope issues as my first post in this thread was about, just making sure some facts brought up about my church where as correct as they could be
    no hard feelings or ill will towards you in the slightest, also id suggest to take a breather your getting a bit worked up... not a good thing this time of year over something like this thread.



    [edit on 28-12-2009 by BigfootNZ]



    posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 05:54 PM
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    Soooo, a woman jumps over a barrier and knocks him over..... Im sure he will get over it....



    posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 05:56 PM
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    Originally posted by BigfootNZ


    Ummm but saying they 'HAVE to' do this as part of their religous rites, is saying its mandatory and outside of choice... you used the words 'HAVE to' in that statement... thats what i was correcting you on.


    Yes I did use the word 'have' in a conditional phrase. You do understand the difference, right? As Catholic, there are things I would have had to do as part of my confirmation rite. I did not have to be confirmed. See the difference?


    And as to saying 'I said it was something they must do as a part of THAT RITE - if they chose to take on that rite'... thats like saying in order to eat, you have to stick food in your mouth... of course you do thats common sense, you can still choose not to eat.


    Um...no. See above.


    If you WANT to serve a mission you serve one, which contradicts your use of 'HAVE to' and 'part of their religious rites' later in the sentence, notice the plural on 'rites'... which sort of makes it out like your saying its tied to other aspects of the church. Which is wrong, not serving doesnt put any limit on you.


    ...and I never said that anyone HAD to serve a mission did I?

    Plural means there would be more than one rite, not that they are somehow magically all interdependent. Is English not your first language?


    I was primarily pointing out poor use of your wording that conveyed a completely wrong idea about an aspect of my ex church... when talking about such things no matter who its about its best to get your facts across correct, otherwise you can cause all sorts of misunderstandings.


    Perhaps you need to become better acquainted with how English sentence structure works so that you can understand a conditional. I prefer to learn about Mormons from the practicing ones that I meat yearly than an admitted non-practicing one on the internet, where all the experts are.


    Question is how did 'Mormons' end up getting into this thread about Catholics anyhow?..


    So you are not even following along? You just saw something you wanted to argue with, poorly, and then ask me to explain to you what the thread says so you do not have to be bothered reading it?

    ATS makes me sad sometimes.


    **goes back to reread a little, but he thinks its something to do with door knocking**.. what that has to do with Catholics I dont know


    I see, you went back and re-read a little did you? Perhaps you should read it all again.

    [edit on 12/28/09 by Lillydale]



    posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 10:32 PM
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    Originally posted by Lillydale

    This is either a complete lack of reading comprehension or a bad joke but it is getting really old, really fast. Do you have anything real to add at all or are you just going to respond to every one of my posts with further proof that you are not following along, reading what you reply to, or even attempting to learn about the subjects you speak of.

    No, I DO NOT ALSO HAVE THIS CHOICE. If you need to go read my posts 10 times before responding next time, please do if that is what it takes to respond to the things I have actually said and the way the world really works.


    You know I hope you are nicer in person than you are in your posts...


    You say I have a choice to put my kids in a private school and you say you do not have the same choice... ok, I could not find in your post where you explained that, sorry.

    I have seen some rather graphic sexual orientation taught in progressive schools to rather young children, and I see that as an infringement on the parent’s choice to pick and choose the right time for their kids. Because of that I would rather see less than more taught on this subject in schools…to error on the lesser side so to speak. This doesn’t mean that there are not conditions where the school needs to play a heavier role, as example, in some inner cities and other places where the “family” has become somewhat nonexistent.

    Instead of getting upset over the schools not teaching to the level you feel they should in sexulality why not just fill in the gaps yourself as I do, on your time, when you feel it is right, and to the level you feel will be best for your kids.


    Schools lack in so many areas, to pick this one and make it a huge issue is just a small area of what they do not do right, but should. This is why my children get extra school work to match their abilities and not just meet the needs of the lowest common denominator.

    Christmas:

    I find this rather surprising since you practice this tradition too. Christmas has been a tradition with our country long before we were even a country. There are also two parts to it with one part (and much larger than the other) completely non-religious, so unless you want to throw in some paganism or other old world rituals most of Christmas is about families and friends coming together, exchanging gifts, having good eats, ponder on the year as it ends as we enjoy the winter holiday break for schools. This is called a tradition….

    The other part for those who want to practice it is the religious part that has nothing to do with trees, or lights, or presents etc.

    So from what I gather from your post is you are highly upset with paying school taxes to our teachers for a day off on December 25 because it just so happens to also align with some religious events too, but I do not see anything in your posts about the one week before and the one week after they have off also for their winter holiday break.

    I'm confused here with all this, should we have everyone comeback to school for one day on the 25th then get the next week off as scheduled, or should we move the two week break to let’s say, into January away from the 25th, or should we cancel entirely the winter break and have our kids go nonstop until summer?



    [edit on 28-12-2009 by Xtrozero]



    posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 11:53 PM
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    Originally posted by Xtrozero
    You know I hope you are nicer in person than you are in your posts...


    It gets a little frustrating to have people argue with you for pages about force and then claim to not know that you actually mean, you know FORCE. It is really frustrating to have someone argue with you about how religious people carry out their day based on their life living next door to some folks who went to some church once. It is even more annoying to have to repeat simple things that need not be said twice for any reason other than a complete unwillingness to read what is right in front of you. Let's begin, shall we...


    You say I have a choice to put my kids in a private school and you say you do not have the same choice... ok, I could not find in your post where you explained that, sorry.


    Which part of this confuses you "more importantly, I do not want to have to pay for it?"

    If you want your kids taught something magically religious, you are more than welcome send then to private school to fix your problem. How would sending my kids to a private school fix my problem of not wanting tax dollars to fund religious instruction in public schools?


    I have seen some rather graphic sexual orientation taught in progressive schools to rather young children, and I see that as an infringement on the parent’s choice to pick and choose the right time for their kids. Because of that I would rather see less than more taught on this subject in schools…to error on the lesser side so to speak. This doesn’t mean that there are not conditions where the school needs to play a heavier role, as example, in some inner cities and other places where the “family” has become somewhat nonexistent.


    Been to many grammar school sex ed classes have you? I doubt you have seen any such thing but ok, fine. Send your kids to private school and your problems is fixed.


    Instead of getting upset over the schools not teaching to the level you feel they should in sexulality why not just fill in the gaps yourself as I do, on your time, when you feel it is right, and to the level you feel will be best for your kids.


    I will try one more time. I am not nearly as concerned about what is taught or not taught as I am my tax dollars going for it. I pay school taxes no matter what. Do I mind my money teaching kids not get each other pregnant and spread STDs because it is scientific and factual? NOPE. Do I want that same money spend making them spend time singing Christmas Carols, NOPE!.



    Schools lack in so many areas, to pick this one and make it a huge issue is just a small area of what they do not do right, but should. This is why my children get extra school work to match their abilities and not just meet the needs of the lowest common denominator.


    LOL. I get it, my kids must be stupid and your are accelerated so they can handle a little ex......NO! MY TAX DOLLARS FOR RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION.

    Please tell me mom helps with the homework at home and not dad.


    Christmas:

    I find this rather surprising since you practice this tradition too. Christmas has been a tradition with our country long before we were even a country.


    Before we were a country,

    we...as a country...celebrated Christmas.

    Read that over a few times and see if you meant to say something else because before we were a country, it was the Native Americans country and they did NOT celebrate Christmas. What you are trying to get out, I think, is that people have been celebrating since before they came to the U.S.? I guess I need you to clear that one up.

    Either way, who cares. You are right, I do celebrate it. I also feel that my school tax dollars should go towards math and science since my kids are more than welcome carol alllllllllllll night long after school.


    There are also two parts to it with one part (and much larger than the other) completely non-religious, so unless you want to throw in some paganism or other old world rituals most of Christmas is about families and friends coming together, exchanging gifts, having good eats, ponder on the year as it ends as we enjoy the winter holiday break for schools. This is called a tradition….


    We need a law mandating this in our public schools? Are you even for real anymore? My kids understand Christmas, sharing, giving, generosity, altruism, love, all that crap and they managed to do that without being forced to worship St. Nick at school and could use that time to actually learn something I am NOT capable of teaching at home.


    The other part for those who want to practice it is the religious part that has nothing to do with trees, or lights, or presents etc.


    Have you even checked out the push to mandate Christmas in Public schools? Please do before attempting this. This is why I am not so nice to you. It is an attempt to push that all children in all public schools take time out to observe the BIRTH OF JESUS CHRIST. That sounds pretty religious to me and since that is the one threatening my tax dollars, that is the one I have an issue with. If they just wanted to teach my kids to give, they can do that without Jesus. Do your kids need Jesus to learn to be nice?


    So from what I gather from your post is you are highly upset with paying school taxes to our teachers for a day off on December 25 because it just so happens to also align with some religious events too, but I do not see anything in your posts about the one week before and the one week after they have off also for their winter holiday break.


    Sigh. I should really give up right here. I never once said I was upset that my tax dollars paid for a day off. I SAID I DID NOT WANT MY TAX DOLLARS PUSHING RELIGIOUS DOGMA AND RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

    When did I say ANYTHING about paying them to have the day off? My tax dollars support them all summer too, you know.


    I'm confused here with all this, should we have everyone comeback to school for one day on the 25th then get the next week off as scheduled, or should we move the two week break to let’s say, into January away from the 25th, or should we cancel entirely the winter break and have our kids go nonstop until summer?


    Yes, you are confused. The only thing I can guess is that you are replying to my blindly because you have a nasty habit of either making things up or imagining them. Maybe you just need to take some time and really read a post before you reply to it. If you plan on continuing that conversation, keep up with what has and has not actually been said. These things change an angry argument into a pleasant discussion. Good luck.



    posted on Dec, 29 2009 @ 02:53 AM
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    Originally posted by Xtrozero
    You know I hope you are nicer in person than you are in your posts...


    HE is way better, as you are: you both are on competition trance and are showing your worst facet because each one of you believes to be right.
    It happened to me too, i have been banned for counter-trolling once.
    I confess you that i don't know to whom side:
    In this case, a Mod is useless.. Some firefighters is what we would need.
    Remember, it is because of clashes like this one that we can make (or try to) this world better. After all, it's the only serious way we have to understand the counter-part
    But there's something that you can do, and still haven't:
    Shake your hands, it does NOT imply that one admits to be wrong to the other side: each one keeps his side and end of the story.
    We all have seen that you both are intelligent enough to undestand this.
    I propose this:
    let's start a debate, here
    www.abovetopsecret.com...
    a debate with rules, modded by chissler

    Please, tell me what are your thoughts about it.



    posted on Dec, 29 2009 @ 03:11 AM
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    reply to post by internos
     


    While I appreciate the kind words, I am probably not all that much nicer because I feel like it has nothing to do with being right and wrong. This is obviously and opinion driven issue and right and wrong will be subjective to a point no matter how fine. I think ATS would be a better place without people getting annoyed the way I do and being "curt" to be nice. However, I think it would be even nicer if threads did not consist of the following...

    Xtro: by force, I am sure you mean having to hear 'merry christmas'

    me: no, force actually means FORCE. Here are examples.

    twenty million posts later

    Xtro: oh...you meant force. You should have said so.


    That is a little frustrating. Why argue with me about it for so long only to turn around and say you had no idea that what you were arguing against was what you began arguing against.

    Then there is the fact that I clearly stated my main issue with the school thing is my tax dollars funding religious BS in public schools. I am told to send my kids to private school and teach them stuff at home I want them to learn. Uh...like Christmas Carols? Either way, it does nothing to address the tax issue does it? So then we move on to the teachers getting a paid day off? Huh? Teachers are not paid hourly. I do not pay for their Christmas morning any more than I do their groundhog day whether they show up to school or not.

    See how this kind of mishmash of responding but not actually reading what you respond to get frustrating? It just comes across to me as someone who wants to argue but not take the time to see what they are arguing about or learn about the subject they intend to cover.



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