Originally posted by Lillydale

Xtro: by force, I am sure you mean having to hear 'merry christmas'

me: no, force actually means FORCE. Here are examples.

twenty million posts later

Xtro: oh...you meant force. You should have said so.

Well not quite so simple. Ones person’s "forced" are not the same for another. I have explained this a number of times, and even though I agreed with you that your examples, that you experienced, were out of line you continued to attack it. My first post was not directed to you, so jumping in with your examples and nothing else leaves the door rather open for my own interpretations.

I have not experienced your level of “forced” religion my whole life, so as you take from your experiences so do I. The schools my kids are in do not teach absences only, so once again I’m not experiencing the same things as you.

I have experienced though on ATS that people have a tendency to overinflate their points and so I take many of them with a grain of salt. I’m sorry you have such issues with religion around the area you live, and I hope you get to solve them one day.

Let’s just leave it at that, shall we?

BTW my wife does 90% of the in-house schooling of my kids. I only step in for the harder math/science issues, so you can relax.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Well not quite so simple. Ones person’s "forced" are not the same for another.

Right. Exactly why I gave you examples of what would be considered force. That was my first response to you. Maybe you should review before responding to me.

I have explained this a number of times, and even though I agreed with you that your examples, that you experienced, were out of line you continued to attack it. My first post was not directed to you, so jumping in with your examples and nothing else leaves the door rather open for my own interpretations.

No because there was no need to interpret what I jumped in with. I gave you examples of actual force. It was very clear. If you interpreted it, you did it with the help of delusion or illiteracy.

I have not experienced your level of “forced” religion my whole life, so as you take from your experiences so do I. The schools my kids are in do not teach absences only, so once again I’m not experiencing the same things as you.

Good for you on one. Does that mean it does not happen? Are we talking about what you personally have experienced or what actually happens?

...and not a problem on two. I would be making much more noise if that had progressed beyond Christians trying to implement it. See they are not teaching that in these schools but many Christians are still lobbying to have that happen. Because my kids are not subjected to it does not change the fact that there are Christians who want to force this to happen. This would be an example of people trying to force religion. I wish I could type more slowly for you.

I have experienced though on ATS that people have a tendency to overinflate their points and so I take many of them with a grain of salt. I’m sorry you have such issues with religion around the area you live, and I hope you get to solve them one day.

Abstinence only and forced Christmas is being shopped at the National Level, not locally. You just have not noticed because it has not happened. Again, this does not change the fact that people are actively trying to make that happen. Look into it. You will see this issue is as much in your neighborhood as mine. You just are not looking for it. I am.

Let’s just leave it at that, shall we?

lol. I would think you would know me better than that by now.

BTW my wife does 90% of the in-house schooling of my kids. I only step in for the harder math/science issues, so you can relax.

Relax? Again, I would think you would know be better than that by now. I do feel a little better though. As long as it is not language skills, I might sleep this week.

Originally posted by Lillydale


Right. Exactly why I gave you examples of what would be considered force. That was my first response to you. Maybe you should review before responding to me.

Maybe you should put me on ignore :0

No because there was no need to interpret what I jumped in with. I gave you examples of actual force. It was very clear. If you interpreted it, you did it with the help of delusion or illiteracy.

Maybe both.... You gave me your examples, and mostly of religious nut jobs that you choose to show your level of "forced". As I stated my friend considers someone handing him a pamphlet or even wanting to as "forced" religion, so I guess both are forced based on the views of the person, and so my first post stands as a question as to what level is “forced”. Does this mean I agree with all your examples, no, but I do agree you see it as forced and so I leave it as that.

Good for you on one. Does that mean it does not happen? Are we talking about what you personally have experienced or what actually happens?

Did I ever post that "forced" never happens? So your views of "Forced" are the set in stone examples of forced religion? You must be very special to speak and set define limits for everyone else.

As example: Extremist protesting the burial of a fallen soldier. Why do you see this as forced religion? It doesn’t matter what their message is for it is freedom of speech. Though I view them as crazy to say the least, I spent 28 years in the military so they COULD protest their message as distasteful as I might find it.

...and not a problem on two. I would be making much more noise if that had progressed beyond Christians trying to implement it. See they are not teaching that in these schools but many Christians are still lobbying to have that happen. Because my kids are not subjected to it does not change the fact that there are Christians who want to force this to happen. This would be an example of people trying to force religion. I wish I could type more slowly for you.

And once again you are defining forced religion for everyone else. The bible say thou shall not kill, so I guess if you also think people should not kill then you are bible thumpers... nice logic you got there.

At the foundation of all religions are morals, ethic and values. Many of these are very interchangeable with non-religion belief, cultures, traditions etc. So someone wants sexual curriculum to be abstinence, does this instantly become a forced religion issue. What if non-religious people also view (and they do) the curriculum that you would like to have taught in our schools as some kind of official approval for our children to have sex? Let’s put boxes of rubbers in our school so they will have safe sex…. Lots of it….

Your views are not everyones...

I wish I could type more slowly for you.

You continue to post you little snide remarks throughout all your posts, I wish you wouldn't...



[edit on 29-12-2009 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Maybe you should put me on ignore :0

I may be argumentative but I find it really counterproductive to plug my ears.

Maybe both.... You gave me your examples, and mostly of religious nut jobs that you choose to show your level of "forced". As I stated my friend considers someone handing him a pamphlet or even wanting to as "forced" religion, so I guess both are forced based on the views of the person, and so my first post stands as a question as to what level is “forced”. Does this mean I agree with all your examples, no, but I do agree you see it as forced and so I leave it as that.

Well as much as I may respect your point of view, this is not up for debate. Legislation has been proposed that would force the Celebration of the symbolic birth of Jesus Christ in public schools. This is force. If this were to pass, there would be no choice for me. I can pay for it in my taxes or go to jail. How is that anything but force? The legislation would be purely about promoting the ideal of one particular religion. The proposal is that I support Christmas with my tax dollars, or go to jail. Please explain to me how you interpret that as anything other than force.

Did I ever post that "forced" never happens? So your views of "Forced" are the set in stone examples of forced religion? You must be very special to speak and set define limits for everyone else.

Actually, English did that for me. Force has a definition. Religion has a definition. You may be looking to interpret but I am looking at the facts as they are, not as I see them.

As example: Extremist protesting the burial of a fallen soldier. Why do you see this as forced religion? It doesn’t matter what their message is for it is freedom of speech. Though I view them as crazy to say the least, I spent 28 years in the military so they COULD protest their message as distasteful as I might find it.

Fine. I can give you that maybe there is a fine line there but then again, so is yelling fire in a crowded theater. Does it become more or less illegal to do based on my true level of perceiving a fire whether real or not?

When you take your religion out of your life and your home and your church and bring it to my funeral to tell my loved ones that god killed me because two men kissed, then you are forcing your point of view on those people. Let me ask you, what do you gain from your religion by protesting my funeral? I did not demand to be buried in your home so do not pray hate at my death.

I do not mind this being open to interpretation because I really only need one example of genuine forced religion and I gave it. Maybe you have a point here.

And once again you are defining forced religion for everyone else. The bible say thou shall not kill, so I guess if you also think people should not kill then you are bible thumpers... nice logic you got there.

Ummm...no. Christians did not invent rules against killing. If I had no knowledge of any religion, do you not think that I might be hurt by the murder of a loved one? I would conclude that killing is bad all on my own. Luckily though, many people think it is wrong to kill...outdating Christians.

Abstinence only teaching on the other hand is a sole invention the American Religious Right.

I am not defining anything for anyone. The religious right in this country defined it, implemented it, obscured the results of it, and demand it be mandated legally.

Why do Christians think they invented the idea that killing is bad?

At the foundation of all religions are morals, ethic and values.

You cannot have those things without religions?

Many of these are very interchangeable with non-religion belief, cultures, traditions etc.

That is because sometimes, religion remembered to incorporate common sense.

So someone wants sexual curriculum to be abstinence, does this instantly become a forced religion issue.

Yes because it is a Christian invention, invented by Christians, taught by Christians, pushed by Christians, lied about by Christians to hide the true outcomes, etc. Do I need to say it is a Christian concept any more or are you getting why I asked you before to research some of this stuff before speaking on it?

What if non-religious people also view (and they do) the curriculum that you would like to have taught in our schools as some kind of official approval for our children to have sex?

Which cirriculum is that? I highly doubt I have proposed one but if you can quote it, have at it! You are really going to have to tell me what it is I said I did want taught here before you label it some kind of official anything.

Let’s put boxes of rubbers in our school so they will have safe sex…. Lots of it….

Your views are not everyones...

...or even mine apparently.

I wish I could type more slowly for you.

You continue to post you little snide remarks throughout your posts, I wish you wouldn't...

You continue to make arguments against things I never said, put words in my mouth, accusing me of not explaining what I clearly explained, and now you are just making things up. I wish you wouldn't.

Here I went and tried to joke a little at the end of mine because I really thought we were finally have an actual discussion. Now I see it has regressed back to you angry at things I never said. I do not feel like playing that game anymore.

Originally posted by Lillydale
Well as much as I may respect your point of view, this is not up for debate. Legislation has been proposed that would force the Celebration of the symbolic birth of Jesus Christ in public schools. This is force. If this were to pass, there would be no choice for me. I can pay for it in my taxes or go to jail. How is that anything but force? The legislation would be purely about promoting the ideal of one particular religion. The proposal is that I support Christmas with my tax dollars, or go to jail. Please explain to me how you interpret that as anything other than force.

Actually, English did that for me. Force has a definition. Religion has a definition. You may be looking to interpret but I am looking at the facts as they are, not as I see them.

I disagree, "forced" is an action not some concrete noun, so actions can and will be perceived or intrepid many different ways based on one's personal experiences.

Fine. I can give you that maybe there is a fine line there but then again, so is yelling fire in a crowded theater. Does it become more or less illegal to do based on my true level of perceiving a fire whether real or not?

Protesting, and most likely legally, is a freedom of speech....

You suggest that there just might be a fine line here with one of your examples, so are so sure that the same fine line is not there with all your other examples? This is all just going around and around in a big circle of what a person, and in this case you, perceive as forced religion.

When you take your religion out of your life and your home and your church and bring it to my funeral to tell my loved ones that god killed me because two men kissed, then you are forcing your point of view on those people. Let me ask you, what do you gain from your religion by protesting my funeral? I did not demand to be buried in your home so do not pray hate at my death.

I do agree with your statement, "forcing your point of view", but "points of view" whether based on religion, culture, traditions, or even fear of the unknown, or what is truly the case with everyone, is a well mix of all of these and other influences, are points of view…and we all got them. If you force your point of view on me, what do you call it? Your point of view… If a religious person forces their point of view on you, then you call it forced religion….hehe

Ummm...no. Christians did not invent rules against killing. If I had no knowledge of any religion, do you not think that I might be hurt by the murder of a loved one? I would conclude that killing is bad all on my own. Luckily though, many people think it is wrong to kill...outdating Christians.

We must be lucky that western atheists are so special since in many parts of the world killing is a way of life. As one example, I went to Chad a while back and for many tribes there it is their way of life for a young boy to become a man they must kill one of their enemies. All over the world we see life as very cheap, so yes WE do need to learn that killing is wrong. Trust me on this for I have traveled across the world and seen it, lived it. I’m not stuck in my little neighborhood with Google as my friend to develop my views as so many seem to be.

Abstinence only teaching on the other hand is a sole invention the American Religious Right.

Yes because it is a Christian invention, invented by Christians, taught by Christians, pushed by Christians, lied about by Christians to hide the true outcomes, etc. Do I need to say it is a Christian concept any more or are you getting why I asked you before to research some of this stuff before speaking on it?

Are you so sure? Have you ever heard of "Straight Edgers"? Here is a quote from one Googled source, "Straight Edgers say their life choices stem from a desire to be true to themselves and not from any religious beliefs" as one of many examples. My Atheist friend that I have posted about is one of them and he is still a virgin at the age of 24 and sees abstinence as the only way too, he is also far left in his political thinking.

So I guess your statements are dead wrong, or at the least extremely narrow in view.

Why do Christians think they invented the idea that killing is bad?
You cannot have those things without religions?

Well they didn't invent the idea they just wrote about it and tried to practice this along with a plethora of other moral and ethical views. As I said, humans are not born with morals, ethics, or values and need someway to learn them. Religion is just one way.....

Which cirriculum is that? I highly doubt I have proposed one but if you can quote it, have at it! You are really going to have to tell me what it is I said I did want taught here before you label it some kind of official anything.

My point was that it really doesn't matter what you think is right in the cirriculum there will be people from all walks of life that will disagree with you on your choice.

Here I went and tried to joke a little at the end of mine because I really thought we were finally have an actual discussion. Now I see it has regressed back to you angry at things I never said. I do not feel like playing that game anymore.

Sorry, it is hard for me to tell the difference since most of your posts do this.

I'm truely not angry with anything, for as I said I'm not really that religious to worry about it, but even though we all drift into argumentative fallacies, for one to constantly try and boost their points of view by suggesting the inability of their opponent’s comprehension, reading or writing skills etc. with simple remarks is just annoying.



[edit on 30-12-2009 by Xtrozero]

And, as the Pope showed with his hands in a video after the fact, he was about a foot short of a first down and was forced to punt

Originally posted by factbeforefiction
This is the problem with all of the anti-Christian hate going on today. Some flakey woman knocks down a frail 82 year old man, for what? That's just ignorant.

Maybe because this "frail 82 year old man" and many like him are praised as gods... and yet we forget that he's just a MAN and NOTHING more, that's "ignorant"!

To some here....................off topic much? Another thread perhaps?

Originally posted by Xtrozero
I disagree, "forced" is an action not some concrete noun, so actions can and will be perceived or intrepid many different ways based on one's personal experiences.

Miss me? I am sorry but my dictionary has verbs as well as nouns. "Forced" is still rather easily defined. It is the past tense or verb form of the noun "force" which I think we established pretty well. Even if not, wait...turn every thing there down. Is it quiet? Can you hear me? Listen closely...this is the reason I opened up by defining what is considered force or forced or forcing in this arena. That is how this all started. Got this time?

Protesting, and most likely legally, is a freedom of speech....

Legal has nothing to do with it. If the law passes forcing my kids to celebrate Jesus in school, that will be legal too...far from making it right; even farther from making it NOT force of religious views. You seem confused between the two.

You suggest that there just might be a fine line here with one of your examples, so are so sure that the same fine line is not there with all your other examples? This is all just going around and around in a big circle of what a person, and in this case you, perceive as forced religion.

There are fine lines everywhere but I have no clue which you mean. If it is has to do with religion...it is religious. I try to keep it simple. Refresh me.

I do agree with your statement, "forcing your point of view", but "points of view" whether based on religion, culture, traditions, or even fear of the unknown, or what is truly the case with everyone, is a well mix of all of these and other influences, are points of view…and we all got them. If you force your point of view on me, what do you call it? Your point of view… If a religious person forces their point of view on you, then you call it forced religion….hehe

No one has protested any of these soldiers funerals, woken me up, harassed me on a street corner, or introduced legislation to cover their opinions on things outside anything having to do with their own personal god. I never claimed the world is a perfect place but when you ask me to discount reality because it is possible in hypothetical land...I have to stick with reality and just worry about what might be someday second.

We must be lucky that western atheists are so special since in many parts of the world killing is a way of life.

Most of those parts have religion as well. Point?

As one example, I went to Chad a while back and for many tribes there it is their way of life for a young boy to become a man they must kill one of their enemies.

They were atheists? I find that doubtful.

All over the world we see life as very cheap, so yes WE do need to learn that killing is wrong.

You just gave me examples of people who have gods and still find life to be very cheap. I have plenty of atheists that still do not think killing is at all a good idea. Want to go tit for tat about it? Starting by including deeply religious tribes puts you in the negative.

Trust me on this for I have traveled across the world and seen it, lived it. I’m not stuck in my little neighborhood with Google as my friend to develop my views as so many seem to be.

Discounting me? Belittling me? Underestimating me? or just bragging. Tell me of the many many Atheist cultures you have witnessed and their complete lack of understanding between right and wrong.

Basically you are saying that people did need that book in order to learn that killing is wrong. The book is how old? Mankind is how old? It seems to me that we learned killing was wrong on some level long enough to write it down.

Are you so sure? Have you ever heard of "Straight Edgers"?

Yes. Not the same thing.

Here is a quote from one Googled source, "Straight Edgers say their life choices stem from a desire to be true to themselves and not from any religious beliefs" as one of many examples. My Atheist friend that I have posted about is one of them and he is still a virgin at the age of 24 and sees abstinence as the only way too, he is also far left in his political thinking.

There are plenty of virgins all over the world. That has nothing to do with the specifics of "Abstinence Only Teaching." Why won't you google that instead?????

So I guess your statements are dead wrong, or at the least extremely narrow in view.

Which ones? You googled one atheist virgin and that undoes something you still admit you knowing nothing about?

Well they didn't invent the idea they just wrote about it and tried to practice this along with a plethora of other moral and ethical views.

So I guess murder trials before Jesus were for fun?

As I said, humans are not born with morals, ethics, or values and need someway to learn them. Religion is just one way.....

A bad way.

My point was that it really doesn't matter what you think is right in the cirriculum there will be people from all walks of life that will disagree with you on your choice.

No. Your point was that I specifically proposed something that I did not. You cannot quote it and you cannot admit you were wrong. This makes me sad.

As to what you said, yup! There should be disagreement. You know a good way to solve that? Limit what our kids are being taught to known facts and history instead of singing silent night and reading about the three wisemen.

Sorry, it is hard for me to tell the difference since most of your posts do this.

I will stop.

I'm truely not angry with anything, for as I said I'm not really that religious to worry about it, but even though we all drift into argumentative fallacies, for one to constantly try and boost their points of view by suggesting the inability of their opponent’s comprehension, reading or writing skills etc. with simple remarks is just annoying.

You know why I get like that don't you? BECAUSE I KEEP HAVING TO REMIND YOU WHAT I REALLY SAID EVEN THOUGH IT IS STILL IN PRINT, ON THE SAME PAGE. I KEEP HAVING TO STEER YOU BACK, REPEAT MYSELF, AND EXPLAIN THE SAME THINGS REPEATEDLY!!!! These are the things that make me resort to mocking one's reading etc.