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Woman jumps barrier, knocks down pope at Christmas Eve mass, Vatican says

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posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 01:37 AM
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Originally posted by Lillydale
[
You said that no one was trying to actually force Christianity on anyone here. Trying to make a Christian holiday law would be just such a thing.


Are not holidays based on our history, population views, and traditions? To recognize a religious or non-religious event is not forcing it on someone, or are you chained to a pew on Christmas day? Once again you view that something is “forced” on you when it is just OTHERS practicing what they believe in, and it just so happens around you.



Do not shift the goal posts. Specifically, you said that nothing was being shoved. I pointed out that it was. If you want to rant about allowing Christmas in school, please do that on your own but do not waste my time with it.


Not sure what you are getting at here...a one line question is a rant...hehe
Also don't be so pissed, I'm not.



But they exist. That was all that needed to be said. You said this sort of thing did not happen. Now you justify the quantity? Pick a side.


Sure they do and so does extremist/crazy/stupid atheist exist too. It’s called people. Once again it just shows your intolerance with those around you, nothing more. I can play your game for you…20 people who are Christian religious extremist protest the burial of a fallen solder, and that means the other 1.3 billion Christians are bad too.




Born Again Christians. Specifically from the First Bible Baptist Church of North Greece. They are on google if you want to call and ask if any of the parish does this.


hehe wow, great, never heard of them, seen them...I guess they have had a huge negative influence in your life though. I also wouldn’t say they were the vast majority either…




There are also Mormons. Look into it as they HAVE to do this as part of their religious rites. Who is it you think Jehovah's witnesses are witnessing to?


Well true, I don't know their ways though, but I have met both and both have come to my door at times over the past 50 years and I give a polite no thank you and they move on...



You are lucky that you have missed out on this joyful experience but if you think that it is just some hoax the country has collectively been working on for decades just to fool you, then you think very much of you and little of anything else.


No, I just think a small percentage of the population are atheist, and they are pissed over anything that might have a religious influence or background, and so they want their views to rule as the majority.



It would not matter if it was just one person in the entire world in all of history. This still means that it does happen. You cannot say it does not happen just because you do not feel enough people do it to count as any.


Wow, this statement kind of proves my point...lol

So you condem 5 plus billion people and live a life of fighting religion, because of your statement? I just do not know how to reply to it...geez




So you are an expert.

Because nothing sounds creepy there.


So smug and self assured are we? No expert here, unlike yourself, also I watch all the kids because two were mine and I have this issue with really bad people that like kids. Don’t be an idiot…



Were they between the ages of 19 and 25 and male?


No, mid 30s husband and wife, you know…a family…




I have Muslim friends so I guess 9/11 never happened. I have Christian friends, good people - there go the crusades, right? It does not work that way. Then again, I never specifically named Mormons. I find their style of coming to my door to make me want Jesus in my life much less confrontational than the example I gave. I was not listing behaviors of Mormons. I was listing behaviors of abhorrent forced religion.


Motivators are interesting things. 200 million plus were killed in Russia and China over a very non-religious motivator call nationalism. Also, things like 911 and the Christian Crusades were religions skewed by leaders as motivators for very non-religious agendas of these leaders. Religious or non-religious it doesn’t matter, people will use any motivator they can.




Again, there is a difference. I think it is fantastic that you know some nice Mormon folks. You do not seem to have learned much about their practices though or else you would not be using them as your example of how people do NOT shove religion down your throat. Again, see 19-25 year old Mormon males. I know nice Mormons too. That does not mean that Born Agains do not routinely tell me that I am an abomination until I take Jesus into my heart. I wish you would pay closer attention and maybe this can be productive.


It just means I'm tolerant to people in general, and I don't wear a chip on my shoulder for someone to knock it off as many Atheist do. I’m not just talking about religion here for tolerance covers the whole spectrum of humans and our way of life.



I asked if you had any examples of Atheists pushing Atheism as I listed people pushing RELIGION. I did not ask whether or not you liked them as people.


Are you suggesting Atheist do not push their own agendas? If you like I guess I could goggle for you..




The answer was no. No, you cannot find any such examples. Paragraphs on how much you hate Atheists is not an answer in any sense of the word.

They come to your house and wake you up to tell you God does not exist?


You have people come to your house and wake you up to tell you that god exists and you are a bad person...lol where do you live?

Other than trying to bury all aspects of religion based on their minority views, I guess it is hard to talk about nothing....



Do they try to mandate that school children take time off of learning to acknowledge some sort of worship of NO GOD?


Lol, give me a brake... I'm forced to cook barbecue on July 4th….one back at ya




Do they even just hand out leaflets reminding you there is no god anywhere?


That is interesting for actually they do, and they have many internet sites too with this agenda...



[edit on 27-12-2009 by Xtrozero]




posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 01:48 AM
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reply to post by Xtrozero
 





Are not holidays based on our history, population views, and traditions? To recognize a religious or non-religious event is not forcing it on someone, or are you chained to a pew on Christmas day? Once again you view that something is “forced” on you when it is just OTHERS practicing what they believe in, and it just so happens around you.





To recognize a religious or non-religious event is not forcing it on someone


well in fact that is not true.. In england shops are were not allowed to trade on sundays

wanna take a guess why? seems pretty "forced" to me that does...




OTHERS practicing what they believe in, and it just so happens around you.


or just so happens to affect your LIFE.. would be more correct..

were do you think laws come from? really?

Thall shall not kill? ring any bells?
Thall shall not steal?

if you had half a clue you would know that laws of the land are most in part if not totaly basied on faith..

you know like them crazy taliban people your fighting in afganistan? or them god loving "christans" who burnt peope for saying the world was not the center of the known universe..

ask copernicus he should know..



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 02:40 AM
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Just because someone is a senior doesn't give a jail out of free card. We are still chasing down Nazi leaders. Should we let them go as well?

My personal grudge?The catholic church is worth billions. Explain to me with all the poverty among catholics why is the Vatican able to make international investments?

Why should any church have so much power and money?

oh yea, and the Vatican keeps telling Africans to not use condoms and that they don't prevent aides. To a country that needs it most.

vile. just vile




[edit on 27-12-2009 by nixie_nox]



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 02:42 AM
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reply to post by Xtrozero
 


I just do not have the energy for people like you anymore. You are reading someone else's posts and responding to them because are not responding to me at all.

You said no one did this sort of thing.

I pointed out that people do indeed do this.

You read - all religions and all people who have religion are bad.

I never said that so I am not sure why you think I said it.

You keep claiming that you are being forced to deal with Atheist ideals. I have asked many times to list them. I have gotten none so far.

You seem to think that knowing one Mormon couple tells you all you need to know about everyone of every religion because according to you, I am wrong based on this.

There are all kinds of wonderful things I would love to respond to in your post but since you have not been following along so far, I see no reason to bother.

Saying you are watching your kids does not make it sound better that you sit there getting drunk watching all the kids. Drunks are rarely good protectors.

The 4th of July is not an Atheist Holiday. It is Nationalist and no one forces you to celebrate it. You chose to live in the United States. The United States celebrates the date it was born as a nation. I did not choose to live in a church or the vatican or any country with a state religion. See the differences yet?

I really do not want to come across as nasty about this but your responses are getting farther and farther from what I have actually said and it has completely lost all meaning. If you want to think I said things that I did not so that you can preach against those things, please find someone else.

If you really want to have a logical discussion, try responding to what I have actually said.



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 03:11 AM
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Originally posted by 13579
well in fact that is not true.. In england shops are were not allowed to trade on sundays

wanna take a guess why? seems pretty "forced" to me that does...


May I ask are there any non religious influences that are forced on you too? The reason I ask this is because all our values, morals, beliefs, traditions etc all come from many different aspects of our culture, and some are religious while others are not, so religion is part of our culture, and there is no way around it. We can rename Christmas and Merry Christmas to Winter Holiday and happy holiday, but it is still there. It is a part of both of our countries since their beginnings (for better or worst) even if you personally do not believe.





or just so happens to affect your LIFE.. would be more correct..

were do you think laws come from? really?

Thall shall not kill? ring any bells?
Thall shall not steal?


Do we rewrite history because much of it was based on the foundations of religion. Would we not still have not kill, not steal within our laws?



you know like them crazy taliban people your fighting in afganistan? or them god loving "christans" who burnt peope for saying the world was not the center of the known universe..

ask copernicus he should know..


Ya humans are crazy aren't they, like when religion is totally absent then things get totally crazy. I’m not here to defend religion history, or how it was corrupted to non religious political agendas, but when I look back in history non-religious atrocities dwarf ones with a religious influence. So what does this mean? It means that humans are not generally nice to each other, and removing moral foundations they can really get mean.

BTW I don't think copernicus was burned to death but died an old man...

Most learned people of that time did see a heliocentric based universe as what was most likely the reality, but the geocentric model was more a philosophy than science. We see this from the works of many important philosophers, such as Aristotle that helped create it in a very non-religious way. Though the church adopted it, the works of copernicus and Galileo finally pulled everyone from this philosophy model to reality.


[edit on 27-12-2009 by Xtrozero]



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 03:19 AM
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Originally posted by Angus123

When I stated that's not the case and why you simply shifted to a new argument. Now you're just babbling about majority rule and how generous christians are. Well the founders knew majority rule in matters of faith would lead to theocracy and put safeguards in place to prevent it. And so what if they give to charity. They hold the world back by clinging to their superstitions.

Well cling to them. Wallow in them. Take delight in your delusions.
But keep it out of my government.

[edit on 27-12-2009 by Angus123]


What "safeguards"?



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 03:24 AM
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Just because someone is a senior doesn't give a jail out of free card. We are still chasing down Nazi leaders. Should we let them go as well? My personal grudge?The catholic church is worth billions. Explain to me with all the poverty among catholics why is the Vatican able to make international investments? Why should any church have so much power and money?


Well said friend



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 03:30 AM
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reply to post by Xtrozero
 





May I ask are there any non religious influences that are forced on you too?


sure.. bank holidays

but then again i kinda like them but its not "forced" because they have nothing to do with religion?

easter
christamas

are forced upon me as LAW.. even when you should know that jesus was not born on the 25 of december

same with "easter" that is also a pagan fistive holiday

Im not sure you know your history so well?

you are aware that the calander we use in the west "so called west" is the gagorian callander ?

Jesus was born some time july mate not december

just for your information


"dont hold me down on the month" but its sure as hell aint december "because thats roman"

and we know what the romans did dont we my little bible reader?

now you know why i hate people who say one thing and dont bother to ask and blindly follow people as the "pope" and sex offenders..





We can rename Christmas and Merry Christmas to Winter Holiday and happy holiday, but it is still there. It is a part of both of our countries since their beginnings (for better or worst) even if you personally do not believe.


and that my friend is called indoctrination...

why even have Merry christamass in the first place or happy holiday?

they call come from "tradition" / "belief"

its only a part of a persons way of thinking.. do not include me in how your think

i could rape someone and still say merry christamass would that make any sens logicaly?

No it wouldnt thats why i see no need for any law based on religion having any merit

And i dont even see why we have laws in the first place.. other than to be controlled and conditioned to THINK.

If i was to drop your arse in the amazon

lets see how far you get with a bible and no laws

thats the problem, its a BIG daydream of epic "purity" when you your self are just as much as a "sinner" as i am

only thing is I admit it you dont. and thats what makes me sick

[edit on 27-12-2009 by 13579]



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 03:39 AM
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reply to post by Xtrozero
 





non-religious atrocities dwarf ones with a religious influence.


That is total BS

Sorry...



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 03:43 AM
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Originally posted by Lillydale

You said no one did this sort of thing.


Hmm I didn't say this...



I pointed out that people do indeed do this.

You read - all religions and all people who have religion are bad.


You said if one person in the human history.... kind of makes me believe...





You seem to think that knowing one Mormon couple tells you all you need to know about everyone of every religion because according to you, I am wrong based on this.


I know many mormons...I was just giving an example....don't read to far into it.



Drunks are rarely good protectors.


Wow, I didn't know I said I was drinking and getting drunk, sorry if you confused it. I would have a drink with my cigar....don't read too much into it...once again, and you reply had nothing to do with drunkenness....



The 4th of July is not an Atheist Holiday. It is Nationalist and no one forces you to celebrate it. You chose to live in the United States. The United States celebrates the date it was born as a nation. I did not choose to live in a church or the vatican or any country with a state religion. See the differences yet?



Well I really didn't choose to live in the US....you are right though I can choose to not celebrate the 4th of July just as you can choose to not celebrate Christmas, as many do not.

BTW Atheist deals with nothing...how can you have a nothing holiday or talk about nothing. Lol



I really do not want to come across as nasty about this but your responses are getting farther and farther from what I have actually said and it has completely lost all meaning. If you want to think I said things that I did not so that you can preach against those things, please find someone else.


Ok, lets stop then...

You posted to me first...sorry

I really didn't want to go down this path, for normally nobody's views are changed. Go back through this thread and read the posts from those who hold zero respect for any religion or other people's beliefs and you will get an idea of where my first few posts came from.



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 03:52 AM
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Originally posted by Xtrozero
Well I really didn't choose to live in the US....you are right though I can choose to not celebrate the 4th of July just as you can choose to not celebrate Christmas, as many do not.


I am beginning to think there is something really special about you so let me be as brief as I can. No one is forcing you to live in the U.S. so if you live there, it is by your own choice.

Yes I can skip Christmas. That is the point. I deserve the retain that right. There are people out there that feel Christmas should be mandatory. That would infringe on my right to NOT celebrate Christmas. No one is trying to make barbecue cookouts mandatory.


BTW Atheist deals with nothing...how can you have a nothing holiday or talk about nothing. Lol


That is right. How can you have a nothing holiday like Earthday, Birthdays, Arbor day, etc. They must not exist. I have no clue where you are even coming from anymore.



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 03:52 AM
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Originally posted by 13579
reply to post by Xtrozero
 





non-religious atrocities dwarf ones with a religious influence.


That is total BS

Sorry...


150 million dead in China over nationalism, 80 million plus dead in Russia over nationalism, WWI, WWII, 2 million dead Cambodia..., Darfur...3 million plus, Genghis Khan, Roman Empire, Vietnam war.... etc etc

I'm not saying religion didn't have its darker moments, but kind of hard to top what we humans do in a non-religious way.



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 04:04 AM
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Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by Lillydale

You said no one did this sort of thing.


Hmm I didn't say this...


Yes, you did.


And I'm sure what you mean by "Forcing" is seeing or hearing any form of religion within your area of perception.

It is funny how something good willed as a simple “Marry Christmas” can be viewed as a personal attack of forced religion….


Did you not mean to say that there is no real forcing going on or was this just an empty post to exercise your fingers?



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 04:12 AM
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Originally posted by Lillydale
There are people out there that feel Christmas should be mandatory.
What do you mean by mandatory? What would you be forced to do?
I'm asking because I don't know and not trying to be a smart @ss

That is right. How can you have a nothing holiday like Earthday, Birthdays, Arbor day, etc. They must not exist. I have no clue where you are even coming from anymore.


Are all non religious events based from atheism? I have explained that our culture, tradition, history and so on come from many different influences, some are religious based, some are superstitious based, some is nonreligious cultural etc. It is hard to remove any major influence that has helped defined who we are, and one still practice by the vast majority of a country no matter what foundation it comes from.

Personally if someone told me I’m going to hell because I do not believe, it would have the same affect on me as if someone told me I’m not getting presents from Santa because I don’t believe. I’m like you as you say, I enjoy many other cultures whether those cultures are based on religion or not, or somewhere in-between. I’m just not sure how much of my rights are infringed on if my company shuts down on Christmas day, or if my kid’s school puts up a Christmas tree, or other religious items on other days.

I see religion deeply imbedded in who we are as humans, and that has nothing to do with whether I believe any of it or not.


[edit on 27-12-2009 by Xtrozero]



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 04:15 AM
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reply to post by Xtrozero
 


like i said its BS..

each one of them you listed have a GOD..

I dont know if you are confused or not but they did in fact WORSHIP A GOD

i know you only are limited to thinking inside a tiny little box that religion is some how "westeren" when in fact its NOT..

Religion is a way of THINKING... its also responsible for ALL that you pointed out based on a belief system eminating from "god or gods"

That is why we have cultures...

you can not just LOB out athiest are some how / dont think about god because we do.

Any athiest with tell you to your face "and honest" WE HAVE NO CLUE who made it all happen.. we dont? we are honest!!

Yet because we do not agree that YOUR interpritation of god is correct we get called NONE GOD PEOPLE when that alone is a crock of BS...

thats why we do not like bible thumpers.. we can not understand your logic

there are how many bibles??? how many religions??

how the bloody hell do we know what is the right one? because you said so?

if thats the case ill start my own? IM GOD pray to me really honesty turst me im god.

what a load of BOLLOX



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 04:24 AM
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Originally posted by Lillydale
You said no one did this sort of thing.

Hmm I didn't say this...

Yes, you did.

And I'm sure what you mean by "Forcing" is seeing or hearing any form of religion within your area of perception.

It is funny how something good willed as a simple “Marry Christmas” can be viewed as a personal attack of forced religion….


Did you not mean to say that there is no real forcing going on or was this just an empty post to exercise your fingers?



Do what? I am missing you view on this...

My point was that many Atheist are hyper sensitive to ANYTHING religious, to the point that everything with a religious based is “forced” on them just because it so happens within the area of perception.

Like seeing a Christmas tree, or a sign saying Merry Christmas or being forced to take paid time off on December 25th, oh the horror. I do agree there is limits to everything to makes anything at some point wrong too.

I don’t how you read into my post as if I was saying NO religion practices have EVER been forced on the population IN THE entire history of mankind….lol



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 04:29 AM
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Originally posted by Xtrozero
Are all non religious events based from atheism?


No. You seem to think Atheism encompasses far more ideology than it actually does.

Because something is non-religious does not make it Atheist. Flag day is not religious. See the difference?


Personally if someone told me I’m going to hell because I do not believe, it would have the same affect on me as if someone told me I’m not getting presents from Santa because I don’t believe.


One more try and I am going to have to just give up.

I could care less what anyone tells me either.

I DO care about them waking me up repeatedly to do it.
I DO care about them ringing my bell and knocking on my door for 20+ minutes so I am forced to come make them go away.
I DO care about the fact that it is not easy to make them go away.
I DO care about the Mormons going on their mission every summer. If I did not want to buy into it the last 20 times you were here, please stop coming to my home uninvited to talk to me about it. I have my book of Mormon already thanks. I do not need a reading partner any more than a wake up call.
I DO care about being told that there is something wrong with me in my own home by uninvited pests.
I DO care about the money I earn. I would like to spend some of that money on Christmas presents I would like to buy people that I love instead of having my tax dollars taken to force my kids to close their math, science, history book and go sing "Silent Night."

Calling me stupid does not bother me. Lobbying politicians to legislate everyone acknowledge your belief that I am stupid, using my tax dollars for it, and making my children sing about it is pathetic.



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 04:32 AM
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Originally posted by Xtrozero


Do what? I am missing you view on this...

My point was that many Atheist are hyper sensitive to ANYTHING religious, to the point that everything with a religious based is “forced” on them just because it so happens within the area of perception.



To which I responded with manners in which it is actually genuinely forced on people. How about trying to LEGISLATE MANDATORY CHRISTMAS IN SCHOOLS?

Abstinence only training funded by tax dollars even though it has proven a monumental failure?

Showing up at the funerals of fallen soldiers to protest and proclaim that god wanted him dead because gay people exist.

Coming to my door to tell me that I am wrong. I am a sinner. I am going to go to hell if I do not let you in and tell me how horrible I am.




To which you began to argue.

How about allowing Christmas in schools and you choose on whether you participate or not, or have Ramadan (as another example) and do the same. It’s all a hard line to atheist and even though I’m not that religious I am tolerant to the beliefs of others. I can enjoy a great Ramadan meal with Muslins even though I care little about their religion. I can reply thank you to a person that wishes me Happy Hanukah though I’m not Jewish. I don’t view any of this as some infringement on my rights as you must.


If you are not going to pay attention to your own posts, then I am not sure I should either.


I better be really really clear.

You claimed that Atheists perceive being wish a merry xmas as some sort of force. I listed real force. You responded that you do not mind hearing merry xmas and that it is a shame I see that as being forced something. Maybe you missed my very short list of things that do NOT include being wished a merry xmas.

I really hope you get it.

[edit on 12/27/09 by Lillydale]



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 04:38 AM
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Originally posted by 13579

like i said its BS..

each one of them you listed have a GOD..

I dont know if you are confused or not but they did in fact WORSHIP A GOD

i know you only are limited to thinking inside a tiny little box that religion is some how "westeren" when in fact its NOT..


What god was it that drove Russia after they outlawed religion in the deaths of 80 plus million?

My point is all those were not done for religion.


You want to blame man's weaknesses on religion and I would just like to point out that with or without religion that weakness is still there.

You’re Utopia of a society with no spiritualism, or one that an atheist might hope for, cannot happen. I’m not here to say one religion is wrong or another is right, but I can say EVERY culture has foundations in religion, so how do you remove it, why would you? Just as fast as a person might say religion caused something another person can say religion prevented the matter from getting worst, who is right, who knows?

One thing I do know is man in general can become extremely evil when pulled from his moral foundations whether those foundations are religious or nonreligious base.



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 04:56 AM
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Originally posted by Lillydale

I could care less what anyone tells me either.

I DO care about them waking me up repeatedly to do it.
I DO care about them ringing my bell and knocking on my door for 20+ minutes so I am forced to come make them go away.
I DO care about the fact that it is not easy to make them go away.
I DO care about the Mormons going on their mission every summer. If I did not want to buy into it the last 20 times you were here, please stop coming to my home uninvited to talk to me about it. I have my book of Mormon already thanks. I do not need a reading partner any more than a wake up call.
I DO care about being told that there is something wrong with me in my own home by uninvited pests.


You know what?

I agree with everything you said above except for I don't care if Mormons do missionary work when they are young, but if they do that work and do it by any of your examples I has issues with that too. I do not practice any of their religions and I do not care to here a lecture from them on it.

Above are perfect examples of people going well beyond any reasonable limit.



I DO care about the money I earn. I would like to spend some of that money on Christmas presents I would like to buy people that I love instead of having my tax dollars taken to force my kids to close their math, science, history book and go sing "Silent Night."


I don't mind a winter holiday event and they sing a mix of song for that time of year, maybe we differ on this one.



Calling me stupid does not bother me. Lobbying politicians to legislate everyone acknowledge your belief that I am stupid, using my tax dollars for it, and making my children sing about it is pathetic.


If it was mandatory for your kids to participate than it is wrong and in any case it should be based on generic songs for there are many religions celebrated that time of year. If someone, a school board, or official forced Christianity on your kids, or their version on you that is wrong.



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