What Kinds of guns not to buy

Originally posted by LucidDreamer85

Is it better to have a 99.999% reliable gun that is older, or a newer gun ?

I'm talking like what are the best of the best old guns to use that still fire like they did back then? and are those better to have then some random new pos ?

No easy answer to that question!

If you're looking for a reliable gun for self-defense, get a NEW gun. Modern firearms made by reputable companies (Sig, Springfield Arms, Glock, Smith & Wesson, Heckler & Koch) will be very, very reliable. Again quality comes with price. All of these companies sell to law enforcement & military, and those guys don't put up with anything less than 100% reliability.

That being said tho, even the best quality handguns will fail with crappy ammunition. For example, Wolf ammo burns very dirty, causes excess fouling and some guns don't handle the steel casings very well.

As far as semi-auto's go the bottom line is they have alot of moving parts causing wear against each other and they will break eventually. The older they are the closer they are to failing. It doesn't matter how great it was "back in the day" if it's 40 years old it's either 1.) an antique, and you're paying for the nostalgic aspect or 2.) getting worn out.

There's really only one "old-school" handgun that may not apply would be the Colt M1911. Used in the U.S. Armed forces as their standard firearm in two world wars, plus the Korean war and Vietnam. The design no longer under patent and almost every firearms manufacturer designs a 1911-style pistol of some sort. It is beyond any doubt the most popular handgun ever made. Spare parts and ammo is plentiful. It is the reason we have a .45ACP cartridge (ACP=Automatic Colt Pistol). But why buy a 80-year-old one from WWI when you can get a brand-new one from Colt (for probably half the price?)

reply to post by projectvxn


I understand what your saying, but you actually have it quite wrong.

I have carried compact weapons, shot and qualified with them for well over 20 years.

It is all about the quality.

Strictly speaking, physically you make a point, and with a cheaper weapon, I would agree 100%.

However with any weapon I would recommend, one of quality, you will find that while they are reduced in size, the tolerances of the internal mechanisms will be exact and well made. Better than larger weapons if anything else.

Some very well made, quality compacts would include.

ParaOrdnance P Series
Glock Minis
Walther PPK
H&K
Smith and Wesson Chiefs Special
And even the Bersa at the bottom of the list

There are many others.

You can shoot thousands of rounds through any of these weapons and never experience a malfunction.

You can also buy a Gold Cup for 2500.00 and have it jam right out of the box..

That is why the revolver is always my first choice for reliable.

Semper

reply to post by semperfortis


Well, again I'm speaking from personal experience and that is subject to vary from person to person. I'm just more wary of compact pistols. It isn't just the proximity of the parts to each other, it is that and rapid changes in temp and pressure that in a more compact firearm would result in deformities faster than a weapon that can disperse or allow heat and pressure to escape better. That has been well documented effect in every weapon with this kind of design flaw from pistol to rifle, most notably the m16 of Vietnam fame.

While I agree that if you do buy compact it should be of impeccable credential from reliable manufacturers, this still requires close scrutiny and testing of the weapon(preferably before purchasing if at all possible).

[edit on 13-12-2009 by projectvxn]

[edit on 13-12-2009 by projectvxn]

reply to post by projectvxn


Excellent advice at all times!!!!



Your last paragraph should be the By-Line for this forum...

Semper

Originally posted by Mortimer452
If you ever decide to buy an AR-15 stay away from Colt. Their tolerances are not mil-spec and some standard AR-15 parts will not work well with them, if they work at all. The fire control group on the Colt uses (or used to anyway) different size pins than a mil-spec AR-15. Other parts require adapters to get mil-spec parts to work on a Colt AR.

There is nothing wrong with original colt AR15s you must have been sold one of the junk rebuilds/remakes that had a colt lower and a aftermarket junk parts.

In the 1980s-90s there were a lot of these built by companies on Colt lower receivers and many are in need of rebuilding by a skilled AR gunsmith.

If the parkerizing on the lower receiver does not match the upper you have one of these parts guns.
If it takes a adaptor pin to connect the lower receiver to the upper you diffidently have one of these parts guns as someone has put a military CAR upper on a civilian colt lower so they could have forward assist. Many of these forward assist uppers were not made by Colt but by aftermarket makers be cause of demand.

You can still buy these Colt lowers and build any piece of c**p you want.
www.floridagunworks.com...

And many people who do not know what they are doing are building there own ARs and then selling these after they do not work right.

Originally posted by jacksmoke
Most eastern european ak aren't that bad, Chinese made AK's are much better 1.5mm thick recievers vs 1 mm thick Euro's. , Higher quality, etc..
Stay away from WASR 10's unless you know what you're doing when it comes to AK's. Front sights may or not be straight, rear sights may or may not be straight, gas tubes may or may not be sraight. recoil springs rusted, scope mounting brackets not on straight, barrels packed with grease, non-matching numbers not uncommon among Euro AK's but will reduce value, (figure that into price). If buying a WASR 10 face to face and it has been re-fanged, make sure its 922r compliant. Also, and most importantly, make ABSOLUTELY sure there is no third hole above the mag release. this hole will be riveted, it is in front of the trigger group rivet and under a convex rivet. This hole was for the auto sear pin. This is considered a MACHINE GUN. ATF no like.

If you do happen to find a clean WASR that is decently built and legal it will only shoot 4-6" groups at 100yds.

So, if all you want is a cheap zombie-killer accurate to about 50 yds. Go for it. Otherwise, spend another 200 bucks and get a Chinese AK

edit: it doesn't matter if hole is riveted or not, welded or not if it was ever there illegal. Fortunatly, most have been found and are rare

[edit on 13-12-2009 by jacksmoke]

I have a Romanian AK on layaway and am wondering if this is the same as a WASAR 10. I have heared people say that they are complete junk, and I have heared that ak's are all the same. I am not getting the warm and fuzzies about this gun anymore. Any futher info would be appreciated.

thanks. and thanks for the thread op.

reply to post by The Lord and Savior


Lots of Information Here

The manuals are down the page a bit

You should be able to get a good idea of what your getting by reading these

Semper

Originally posted by MikeNice81

Also never buy a Davis P-32 or any of their guns. They were recalled for coming apart during firing. They were even sued for injuries that resulted during normal operation.

I'll second that!! No to Davis Brand firearms! I bought a Davis .380 for $50 thinking I could machine the problems out of it. Not worth my money or my time. I warn everyone to stay FAR FAR away!

I also have to agree about buying only quality ammo and mags. If your life may one day depend on a firearm, the last thing you ever want to do is make shortcuts......

*Edit: P.S.... Great post!! Finally, a topic that everyone can agree upon... No one likes a crappy gun!!! S&F

[edit on 14-12-2009 by Dave.Las.Vegas.Promotions]

reply to post by semperfortis


Yeah those were some of the reviews I was talking about. See what I mean? There are nothing but glowing reviews on this gun from 99% of the people who reviewd it. And then I hear others say it is a pos.

I suppose I will have to learn the hard way. I am buying from a reputable dealer in my town who has been in buisness for over 50 yrs. I can't imagine they would sell crap.

Thanks for the link though.

reply to post by The Lord and Savior


If it helps any, I have not heard anything negative about them..

Not my cup of tea, but I have bought and sold a few AKs in my time.

You can't always go by others too, I'm sure you know that. I have had people tell me my Para P10 is crap.. One of the best guns I've ever owned...

Semper

reply to post by semperfortis


This is what I am thinking. I'm sure they are junk to a die hard ak fan or a die hard gun fan in general but this will be my first gun purchase ever and I want to be pumped about it but also don't want an unsafe gun that I cannot rely on.

I am buying this rifle primarily as a shtf rifle and it will complament my b.o.b. quite nicely.lol, or at least I hope.

Thanks for the help.

reply to post by The Lord and Savior


Probably. And some of them are good. I have a GP75. It's made from Romanian surplus parts.. yet to have a problem with it.

Not to purposefully upset people who own them but I wouldn't go near a Glock if you paid me. I have fired a dozen or more of them and although they fire reliably and I haven't heard of jamming or parts failure there is one inherent problem with them new.....non adjustable rear sight.

The common nickname they have at my club ( and a lot of others ) is a "Pray and Spray". If you want accuracy you need to have an after market rear sight that is adjustable and then reload down way below factory specs to get some level of accuracy.

If money is no option then you can buy handguns like SVI and STI that will shoot straight and come with optical sights out of the box. I have a Tanfoglio 1911 .38 super and out of the box it shoots well, unlike Norinco's, Glocks, Taurus and Power Ordinance which I am saying are not bad pistols however to get decent accuracy you need to modify somewhat.

One that costs 2 bucks.
Never a good deal.

reply to post by mazzroth


If what you want is competition, you are correct in some minor points, but not for combat or survival.

The Glock Sights are "Drift" adjustable just like all decent combat weapons.

Glock makes a few varieties of "Target/Competition" weapons with very nice adjustable sights.

Para Ordnance makes some of the most accurate "out of the box" weapons one can buy.

You're mixing apples and oranges

You want a good Target/Competition weapon? Get it with Target/Competition sites. Want a good combat/survival weapon? Get it with good fixed sights.

No true professional will ever go into combat with Target Sights. Too fragile and too easy to "knock off"...

Several of the competitions I engage in, have a "Carry" competition. Target sights are not allowed.

Apples and Oranges.

Semper

I seem to notice one manufacturer's name missing: Ruger. The Mark II was the first pistol that I ever shot, and while I have a bias for revolvers, I was very impressed with the balance and accuracy of the Mark II.

It was that experience that made me purchase an old Security Six 6" with confidence. While I have not taken it to the range as of yet (shame on me) I love the balance and feel of those old wood grips in my hand. It is that balance that makes that 6" stainless .357 feel light.

It does have a very heavy trigger in dual action, so no accidental discharge there. But it does detract from the accuracy of a single hand shot, I am sure. Even cocking the hammer back for a single action shot has firm trigger pull. However, despite its age and use (scuffs on the bottom of the grips and wear marks consistent with a holster) indicate it was an every day carry for either a guard or small town officer, the action remains very tight.

I would have felt better paying $350, but didn't feel that the $400 was too bad a price in today's market for a quality revolver. Being able to use both .357 and .38 ammo was also a deciding factor, but my experience and satisfaction with the Mark II was the selling point for me. Seeing the smile on an old man's face when I handed it to him and he said that I bought a good gun made me know I hand made a good choice.

I have a Hi-Point in 9mm...got it for $99 brand new! Never had a problem with it but I can foresee a potential problem... The firing pin doubles as the frickin ejector!

Originally posted by semperfortis
reply to post by mazzroth

 

If what you want is competition, you are correct in some minor points, but not for combat or survival.

The Glock Sights are "Drift" adjustable just like all decent combat weapons.

Glock makes a few varieties of "Target/Competition" weapons with very nice adjustable sights.

Para Ordnance makes some of the most accurate "out of the box" weapons one can buy.

You're mixing apples and oranges

You want a good Target/Competition weapon? Get it with Target/Competition sites. Want a good combat/survival weapon? Get it with good fixed sights.

No true professional will ever go into combat with Target Sights. Too fragile and too easy to "knock off"...

Several of the competitions I engage in, have a "Carry" competition. Target sights are not allowed.

Apples and Oranges.

Semper

I want to be able to hit a Rabbit at 50 metres for my dinner...I want accuracy baby!! Combat is a different story my friend, realistically evasion of any enemy force is paramount to survival so I would not be engaging anyone period because its called murder.

reply to post by Ahabstar


I also have a Ruger,a SP101.I like how it feels in my hand,not too heavy.
I like the fact you can use, .357 or .38 ammo, in this revolver.I practice
with the .38 ammo and save the .357 for more serious shooting.

Okay since we have new, never owned a gun, want to learn, people I'm going to do something I never do... tell you what to get...

Those people who say get a revolver, are right... for someone just learning there is nothing as simple reliable or easy to learn than a good old revolver... Stay away from the semi auto's like the 1911 glocks and hk's.
not that their not good little guns but for someone just learning there's a lot to know, insert mag rack the slide release the safety.... Easy for a beginner to forget one of those steps... that's why we always preach PRATICE PRATICE PRATICE...

now a revolver is more a point and shoot... no complicated steps to remember.

So for a first timer who wants a personal protection gun without all the fuss...Ole Gunny is going to tell you what to buy...

You want a .357... Look for a S&W model 19 or a colt king corba. Ruger makes a nice one too But I like the the colt better. used you'll find them around $300...Buy a gun with either a 4 or 6 inch barrel...When you ask for ammo you tell em you "Only" want 125 grain semi jacketed hollow points... if they don't have them go somewhere else...Buy two speed loaders and learn to use them.

Some people are going to disagree with me but I'm telling ya. there is nothing easier to learn to use. and none here can argue the fact that the old .357 loaded with 125 gr semi jacked hollow points still holds the record for one shot stops... Ole Gunny wouldn't steer you wrong, not when lives are on the line.

[edit on 14-12-2009 by DaddyBare]