What Kinds of guns not to buy, page 6
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ATS Members have flagged this thread 12 times


reply posted on 13-5-2011 @ 11:43 AM by Mr Tranny
Originally posted by DaddyBare
We always talk about the best, the finest, coolest... but there is another side... the don't waste your money or down right dangerous...


So to kick things off lets talk about one that will get you killed simply because you don't know...Damascus steel...



Originally Damascus steel referred a hot-forged steel used in Middle Eastern swordmaking from about 1100 to 1700 AD. Damascus swords were of legendary sharpness and strength, and were apocryphally claimed to be able to cut through lesser quality swords and even rock.

The swirl pattens in the steel make this among some of the prettiest guns you'll ever see... but there is a problem...

Prior to the early 20th century, all shotgun barrels were forged by heating narrow strips of iron and steel and shaping them around a mandrel.This process was referred to as "laminating" or "Damascus" and these barrels were found on inexpensive shotguns that sold for $12.These types of barrels earned a reputation for weakness and were never meant to be used with modern smokeless powder, often resulting in catastrophic failure. can you say blow up in your face?

the thing is, you still see these guns pop up from time to time at a gun show... and they work just fine with the old lower pressured black powder shotshells, but when they moved to modern smokeless powder and much higher chamber pressures they didn't change the cartridge... a modern 12 ga fits neatly into the chamber of one these old black powder guns... you'd never know you just made a fatal mistake until you pulled the trigger!


That very pretty steel swirl is your tip off... because of it's beauty there are gun makers today that sleeve Damascus steel over... giving the impression of... but with the safety of modern materials hidden underneath...

Okay now your turns...
So tell me what kind of bad experiences have you had? don't be shy you might just save more than someones hard earned cash


I think you, and the wiki article have it a little “bass ackwards”

Fist things first. $12 was not a small sum of money in the pre 1900 days.
In the 1902 sears roebuck catalog, they had the $12 Damascus shotguns.
Adjusted for inflation, that is around $1200
The most expensive shotgun was a Damascus barrel gun.
It was $70
Adjusted for inflation, that’s around $7000

The main thing is…..
Metallurgy had not come of age back then, and the technology to make a strong single alloy gun barrel did not exist.

A non laminate (non Damascus) barrel was far less reliable and far more likely to blow up in your face. The chances for a metal defect to weaken a barrel was very high. That is why they laminated the barrel out of many strips. That way, if one or two of the strips had a critical defect, then the barrel would still be structurally sound. The chance of all the strips having a critical defect in the same spot on the barrel is almost nil.

The old flintlocks and rifles that were made back then, had extremely thick barrels to help make up for the poor non laminated metal quality. And even then, all good quality barrels were subjected to a proof shot to try and weed out the truly junky barrels before they went to the field. That is why the old ones will be stamped with proof marks.

The Damascus barrel guns were some of the highest quality, and the safest money could buy back in the 1800’s and earlier.

They only earned a poor reputation in the 20th century. That was when nitro powder had made it to market, and steel making had come of age, to the point that you could make a high strength, defect free, single alloy barrel.

It is like the old flint locks of the same era. They are non laminated barrels. If you put a modern nitro load into one of them, they will explode! It is not a question of reliability, about the likelihood of it exploding. The chance that it will explode is 100%

The simple rule is, any pre 1900 gun should be assumed to be black powder, unless it is explicitly stamped “Nitro” on the barrel. Not on the handle, or lock mechanism, because the barrel may have been switched with an older non nitro rated barrel.

If you have a pre 1900 non nitro barrel, only use it with true black powder, or black powder equivalent. No exceptions!!!!!!


reply posted on 14-5-2011 @ 12:39 PM by DaddyBare
reply to post by MikeNice81


it is very dangerous and foolish to scavenge weapons and ammo...
you might want to read another of my threads to learn why
www.abovetopsecret.com...


reply posted on 14-5-2011 @ 07:44 PM by xxclaro
reply to post by MikeNice81


Proper planning should prevent the need for scavenging ammo. If you find ammo, you could take it, but I wouldn't want to rely on it to ffed my guns. Simple handloading setups are not expensive,and bullet molds are available for almost any calibre.
As far as steel guns go, I'm not sure what else your going to use? Polymer frame guns still need lubrication, but this is really of no consequence. A handgun or rifle needs very little lubrication to run properly. Go to your local hardware store,buy a couple tubes or tubs or decent grease and your set for years. For a cost of less than $10, your lubrication needs are taken care of. A bit of oil to prevent rust a would help,although surface rust will not impair the function of your gun, just look crappy. Most modern guns are available in stainless as well. Stainless,in my experience, needs a bit more attention to lubing than non-stainless.

In my opinion the guns not to own are the ones you won't be using. I see some guys with AR's or other assault rifles that must weigh 12+ lbs with all the junk they got hanging off them. From what I've seen on long difficult hunting trips, heavy stuff gets left behind more and more. Your more likely to have a light,easy to carry gun at hand when you need one than a heavy cumbersome one. Too many people get caught up in the tactical craze and buy stuff because they think it looks cool.
Also, any gun that you cannot trust 100%. I had a .22 revolver once that had a wonderfully light single action trigger. In fact,it was so light that a good slap tothe gun would cause it to fire. I can deal with that at a range,by myself with no one else to worry about. If I'm carrying a gun for protection or sustenance, it absolutely must be 100% safe and reliable.
Also, heavy kickers are something most people should shy away from. Not many people shoot heavy recoiling firearms well. Some do, but take the number of those that say they can,subtract 95% and your probably close to the truth. A hard recoiling rifle is not only hard for most people to shoot well, but it often induces flinching that will carry over when shooting other firearms,even if they are relatively mild by comparison. A bad flinch is hard to get rid of. Ask a professional trap shooter about that, they`ll be able to tell you. Shoot a gun you ca nhandle,don`t try to be macho about it. Almost anyone can learn to handle the .308 class of weapon in an average weight firearm,say 8 lbs. The same gun in a 300 WM is harder to handle,and really not necesarry for most people.
Semi-auto firearms are another one that I think at least beginning shooters should stay away from,even in .22. I`ve seen many beginning shooters develop very bad shooting habits with autoloading .22`s. The ability to quickly put rounds down range leads to a lack of accurate first shot placement. You can waste a serious amount of ammo with a semi-auto, and I imagine in a stress inducing situation this would only be worse. Learn to shoot with single shot or bolt guns first. Once thats mastered, I guess a nice auto would be fine.


reply posted on 14-5-2011 @ 09:24 PM by ISHAMAGI
reply to post by mazzroth


I've owned 3 glocks and shot at least six. With the exception of the 27 they were all deadly accurate right out of the box. Ill never forget when I got my first glock 21. Brand new out the box I didn't work the action the couple hundred times you're supposed to and it jammed. I was pissed so I took it to the gunsmith behind the counter at the range. He informed me of my folly then proceeded to take the target back to 50ft and shoot a Smiley face in the bullseye!! It never jammed again and its shot everything from cheap reloads military surplus and Corbin +p+s.

Glocks bar sight it the fastest repeat accurate shot gun I know of. I seriously wonder what you've Bern shooting.

As far as the open it simple no handgun under 200 is even worth owning less its a surplus makarov


reply posted on 15-5-2011 @ 12:31 AM by MikeNice81
reply to post by DaddyBare




I know it is not safe. I would not recomend it for any normal situation. However I look at it like this. Where are you going to find primers, powder, and bullets? You can load a few thousand rounds for every gun you own. However, for every one you shoot three parts disappear forever.

So eventually you may have to scavenge for either parts or whole rounds. I'm not talking about a Hurricane Katrina or even Japan type disaster. I'm talking abou the very real possibility of economic collapse followed by new record levels of inflation and poverty. It has happened in many countries.

If you team that with a disaster like Katrina (or a large earthquake) you could talk about a serious game changing event.

There are several plausible scenarios that could limit your access to preloaded rounds or their componets. I admit they are far fetched and/or highly improbable. However, it doesn't cost anything extra or do any harm to prepare in such a small way.
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