Israeli commandos storm arms ship from Iran bound for Hezbollah

You are doing an awful lot of history teaching here but not alot of direct factual responses, wonder why?

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

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My dear friend, there are many in here who simply do not care unless its either war drums beating or simply placing that head of an Israeli or Palestine in the sniper scope.

....common all you hungry ats posters, surely you should be more careful and post relevant information regarding Iran and the Middle East. Oh well, there goes another allied nation supplying arms to a country which it shouldn't. How about Israel now declares an act of readiness to arms against the German nation....oh the irony is simply mind blowing.

US Warships Raid German Ship Carrying Arms From Iran To Hezbollah

perfunction.typepad.com...

[edit on 5-11-2009 by tristar]

reply to post by mrmonsoon

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It doesn't matter who owns the ship, who is claiming NOT to own the weapons found or where abouts in the sea they were found.

Everything sent by ship must have a sender and a receiver or they wouldn't know who to invoice for the shipping and where to take it.

This needs paperwork and therefore has to be traceable!

So WHO sent it and WHERE is it going to?

Somebody must have made the weapons and paid for them to be shipped. The ships captain must know where he is taking them, the docks must know where to deliver them to or who is collecting them.

It's not rocket science and my money is on Iran sending them to terrorists.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

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I stand corrected. Hizbollah is not Palestinian. I was wrong.

The confusion originated in the mid 80's, when Hizbollah and the PLO were both operating out of refugee camps in southern Lebanon, supporting one another. At that time, they were so intertwined as to be nearly indistinguishable, bound together by a common enemy, living in common conditions. It's hard to tell shia from sunni through a peep sight, especially when either one is energetically trying to kill you.

Of course, at that time, there was a plethora of groups, Druzes, Phalangists, Amal, etc. What? About 30 groups or so, wasn't it? All trying to kill each other, and anyone else, and they never could keep their alliances all that stable. A free for all.

The one alliance that remained more or less stable, even to this day, was the Hizbollah support for the Palestinians, even after the PLO waned.

To Hizbollah's credit, they at least DID keep their eye on the ball, and never really got sidetracked into all that sectarian BS that was going on. They fought with Amal over control of some areas, but that can't really be considered sectarian, since Amal was shiite too.

After I thought about it and sorted it out, and realized you were right about that, another thought struck me. No one said Hizbollah was Palestinian but you. The gist of the discussion was that Israel had intercepted arms bound for Hizbollah in Lebanon. No one said they were bound for palestinians, and no one said they were bound for Gaza. Yet, inexplicably, you started accusing people of having said that, when in fact you are the one who brought up a link between Hizbollah and the palestinians first, and you were the first to mention "geography" and Gaza vs. Lebanon.

I had to ask myself why you would do that, when no one else had. Then it dawned on me. The purpose was to cloud the issue. A smoke screen. Misdirection. Leading the discussion away from the crimes at hand, i.e. smuggling weapons to Hizbollah by Iran. Hmmm... to further obfuscate that, you then accused Israel of "piracy", to shift attention from the actual crime committed. Hmmm...

Congrats. I bit before I thought. That don't happen often. Ya got me.

Now, as to the ground rules for a discussion, I note a decided avoidance of the question I posed in your ground rules. My question, if I must restate it to get an answer, was: how far back do we need to go to determine who did what to whom first, since your assertion was that the Israelis started everything.

How far back? Careful how you answer, and you may want to ask the advice of a palestinian first, as they've been trying to pin down the same argument for a few years now.

Another question. I already know the answer to it, and I'm sure you do too, I mostly just want to see if you'll admit it. The question is this: you've made a point of how the palestinians are pinned down in their refugee camps by the Lebanese government. You've made a point of it more than once in this thread, so your answer to this question is quite germaine. Tell us, WHY are the palestinians pinned down in their camps? WHY are they not allowed to run free? You are correct, Palestinians actually have a far greater degree of freedom inside Israel than inside Lebanon. Tell us, why is that?

You mentioned working with a relative of president Gamal. Did you actually mean president Gemayel, the phalangist leader? I'm sure you're aware that those two words mean vastly different things in arabic. Was that another mistake, or an intentional slight?

It seems likely that if there wasn't any profit in it for them, then after this long a time they would have decided to cease being refugees, and integrate into society. They're certainly not getting rich off of the UN.

So, to answer your question, yes.

Actually, NOW there is an additional reason. Let's wait and see if Proto will admit it before we get into that one, shall we?

I don't. I know a fine young man that packed Chinese ad Egyptian AKs into Afghanistan on the backs of donkeys in the 80's. M-16's would have been "American made", and pointed a finger at the actual source.

They call that "plausible deniability". Even Iranians can figure it out.

reply to post by nenothtu

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This confusion generally does not occur when people stay at home in their own nations. That there was some blowback from forcing tens upon tens of thousands of indigenous people out of Palestine at gunpoint over the Lebanese border to ethnically cleanse a stolen territory is not a surprise to me friend. Is it really a surprise to you?

That both Hezbollah and the PLO where fighting a common enemy from a front line terrain does not make them any more intertwined than Americans at Omaha Beach and the British at Sword.

It’s a nice way to excuse the blatant deception you were called on which since you attempt to infer you were there in the ‘thick’ of things as a foreign interloper in Lebanon’s Civil War you certainly would know that the Palestinians and Hezbollah were not an aligned or affiliated organization. Hezbollah was formed by Shia in the South to counter Amas backed by Syria friend.

Israel simply became a common enemy when it invaded and provided cover for Lebanese Christian Militias to attack the Palestinian refugee camps.

It could be argued that much of what caused destabilization inside progressive and affluent Lebanon was the Palestinian issue Israel forced on it when it drove thousands upon thousands of unarmed peaceful Palestinian civilians over the Lebanese border and refused to allow them to return making them Lebanon’s problem.

However I do appreciate your qualified attempt to stand corrected with less humiliating deflections, as it is more than most of the people who also willfully posted erroneous information have been inclined to do.




Hezbollah is a credible political faction, civic and military organization. I personally consider many of Israel’s actions to also be terrorism and it is for disingenuous reasons that popularly accepted factions in their own countries are labeled as terrorists for simply valuing their own freedoms and sovereignty and having the courage to fight against a much better funded and backed enemy that wants to dominate them. I wouldn’t go so far as to call Hezbollah Freedom Fighters like we do when once again for propaganda purposes we are looking for a level of support gained simply through perception and distinction as opposed to the fact. Last century’s freedom fighters in Afghanistan are this century’s terrorists. The reality is nothing about them has changed except how Western Governments and Media want to exploit them and the purposes they want to exploit them for.

I reject the so called war on terror as robbing people of the dignity to be self determining and sovereign as we seek to infringe upon their sovereignty and tyrannize them for various forms of economic and political exploitation.

I reject all governments who wish to brainwash people in this or any fashion.




Sounds like a pretty disturbing reading comprehension problem to me considering you yourself admitted saying that Hezbollah was a Palestinian Organization. Visit an optometrist reread the thread. I was responding to people who were claiming that this was proof that Palestinians are buying weapons instead of food.

As far as admitting your error this is one of the most qualified admissions of error I have ever seen and just like yesterday every one was trying to make Hezbollah be a Palestinian organization now we are going to try to pretend I some how tricked them into doing that?

Can you say desperate? I bet you can!




There is no proven crime at hand friend. Courts of Law determine if a crime has occurred and not the media and not internet forum gangs. I simply responded to the very real act of an aggressor nation in an act of piracy. I have demonstrated on this thread how it easy it is to fill out a Bill of Lading.

We are a long way from knowing the facts of this issue and we will never establish facts of this issue should a court of law not rule on it after a credible investigation of all the evidence. American Justice Standards are high friend and so are people’s with critical minds.




Actually you got your self; you appear to be well on your way to doing so again.




When you get done debating yourself, which is in reality all you are doing please let me know and we can discuss debating about the Habiru all six thousand years of their history friend. I am on ATS on the heels of a conspiracy not your run of the mill amateur propaganda and deflection for political purposes.

If you can’t debate in honest good faith in a credible manner then I can assure you I have no interest. So far you haven’t done that, and while you will look for more ways to qualify that and put that on me…that be on you!







[edit on 5/11/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

So it's OK for YOU to hang out in Lebanon, but not me, right? Must be because you think you're on the "right" side of things.

The rest of that diatribe is a matter of opinion as well. "Stolen" territory my great aunt Fanny. Ditto on the "ethnic cleansing". Means squat, except in propoganda comsumption.

Those refugees were settled WHEN again? That's a lot of blowback.



No, but the intercooperation and mutual assistance, makes them closer than, say, hottentots and hamburgers.

You DO know that Hizbollah provided "services" to the Palestinian camps, same as the Lebanese Shia camps, right?



Interloper? I've been called worse. I'll take that as a kindness. You mean Amal. Syrian backed Amal. Yeah, I know that's why Hizbollah was formed, to answer that and counter it. They fought each other like devils at times too, to get that point across. Still doesn't change the facts of life vis-a-vis cooperative and mutual support funtions between Hizbollah and the PLO. Not that it matters much anymore, given the current status of the PLO. They sure as hell didn't shun the Palestinians, as you imply!



Israel invaded with intent to stop the cross border attack by the PLO from their safe havens. Hizbollah took exception to the invasion, and it was the birth of a beautiful partnership.



It could also be argued that those "peaceful" Palestinians were run out of Israel for cause, and took up screwing with the Lebanese government as well, causing destabilization. Peaceful folk don't generally go around destabilizing countries. Of course, I see where you get the quaint notion of the PLO being a garden club. After all, Arafat DID get a Nobel Peace prize, didn't he?

It boggles the mind.



When I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I'll own it. No need for humiliation or deflection, since I was the wrong one on that point, not you. I do take exception to the insinuation that I "willfully" posted erroneous material. Had that been the case, ain't no way I'd back down from it. In other words, if I'd done it WILLFULLY, I'd never admit it.




Hizbollah is a "credible political faction" now, because they've gained power in Lebanon. Wasn't always so, but everyone starts out small. In the same way, the Sandinistas became a "credible political faction" in Nicaragua, after they beat the country into submission amd took over. I still wouldn't hang out around Daniel Ortega's pool for a beer with him.

Be that as it may, I'm quoted all over ATS as saying that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, so you'll get no argument from me there. God knows I've run into enough of both camps, and the simple fact is it's true.

If you're insinuating that the Taliban and the mujahideen of the 80's in Afghanistan are the same folks, you're dead wrong. I've posted extensively all over ATS about that,too, and won't retype it here again. If you'd like, I can provide links to the original posts for you, But I'm not gonna cramp myself typing all that out all over again.



That is of course your right. Myself, I got nothing against killing folk that intend to kill me, and have demonstrated a willingness to do so by killing others of my kind, unprovoked, or supporting and aiding those who have.



That brainwashing business works both ways, but I get your point, even if I don't necessarily agree.



Ah yes, but that was AFTER you had already started blowing the smoke.



If you can't make a point without trying to be insulting and condescending, then I suppose I win by default. It weakens your position, as a desperate attempt to strengthen it. I stand by the assertion that Hizbollah suports the Palestinian cause. Chucking rockets into Israel is NOT defending against invaders, it's pissing off a dragon, trying to drive them out of their own territory for... you guessed it, the Palestinians to take over again. If that ain't support, I don't know what is.

I wonder if I could get some of them to come over here and kill off my neighbors so I can increase my yard space? Nah, just kidding. I don't like mowing all that much.



Of course I can. Look above. I did. I didn't say you tricked 'em into saying Hizbollah was Palestinian, I said you used that charge as a smokescreen to obfuscate the issue. Sort of like now.




I agree no crime has been proven as yet. Unfortunately, piracy is a crime, and you've made that charge, and convicted Israel of it in your own mind, without a hearing of all the facts. You've made assumptions to base your case on. Just because a bill of lading CAN be faked, doesn't mean it WAS. ID's CAN be faked, but I'll bet yours is real. Of course, using your logic, I can "prove" it isn't.



Agreed. That's why I feel it's unfair of you to charge piracy and assume guilt before reviewing all evidence. American Justice wouldn't be the standard, though, Maritime Law would.



I'm ready whenever you are. It will of necessity include more than just the Habiru, though. That's only the dim mists of one side of the story, now isn't it?

Love that superiority thing you have going on. It's cute. Sorry, I couldn't resist, given the condescention in your tone.

reply to post by nenothtu

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Captain Jack Sparrow had valid reasons in his mind for pirating too mates! Aye it’s a pirate’s life for me too.

In fact I was yachting in the Mediterranean when the Captain informed me we were off the coast of Lebanon I insisted on going ashore for a picture moment back home!

I was 19 at the time and I worked for a company owned by a Christian Lebanese. In Los Angeles were I was living at the time there was a significant number of Lebanese Christians who had fled Lebanon because of the Civil War.
He had a large group of friends that were also Christian Lebanese whom he would often engage in political discussions with about what was going on back in Lebanon. Many of them still had business interests back in Lebanon and would occasionally go back over to check on them, often for the purpose of trying to sell them and divest themselves of them.

I often discussed the politics with his friends as a means to be ingratiating for job security purposes. I would do my
Best to stay well read on events for that purpose. The Los Angeles Times was an excellent Newspaper in those days (I haven’t read it in years since I no longer live there) and had its own correspondents throughout the Middle East and they provided some very quality in depth stories and analysis in places throughout the Middle East including Lebanon you don’t see in most newspapers. When ever Time or Newsweek or other magazines would have in depth pieces I would make it a point to read them.

There is no denying that the Palestinians played a huge role in the events that helped to lead to the Lebanese Civil War and my Lebanese Christian friends did not like them. They though weren’t much more thrilled about Israel as
they felt Israel stuck them with the Palestinian problem and was using its military might in ways that they couldn’t counter to protect and ensure their own sovereignty. Bear in mind as expatriates these were men who while making fortunes in Los Angeles would have preferred to have been in their native Lebanon and resented that they had to flee it for they and their family’s safety. They had plenty of contempt for plenty of the parties over there. Even at that point in time Lebanon’s government was still Christian dominated and most of these people were actually Armenian in heritage and devout members of the Orthodox Armenian Church. They were colorful characters though and in all my years of working for other people that particular Armenian Christian Lebanese employer was by far and away the most generous and human of the lot. I truly liked and respected him and was grateful for the job and his generosity and warmth of spirit.

Cities like Los Angeles (I live in Miami now which is similar) are huge melting pots. As someone who became passionate about history and politics, and conspiracies beginning at the age of 6, I have always cherished the opportunities to interact with people from all over the world and listen to their tales about life back home. As someone who knew geography and history and political factions well, whether it be a cab driver or a waiter or a client from where ever, when you mention that you know something about their homeland their faces light up and the say “wow an American knows about what goes on in tiny little ________) and then they would pour their hearts out to fondly reminisce about homes and days gone by. Every one is human friend, and human beings should not be classified first and foremost by their nationality, sex, religion or heritage.

The blanket stereotyping of people not only diminishes them but often ends up forcing them to react from a defensive posture of the corner that they have been pushed into with their stereo type.

I promote peace and not war, and to me political correctness is a way to say police state, and conventional wisdom is a way to say lacking common sense and real wisdom.

When a crowd of telephone poles is leaning to the right out of political correctness and conventional wisdom I instinctively lean to the left knowing from a truly correct standpoint and a common sense standpoint that’s the way to go.

I don’t embrace the herd mentality we have seen on this thread how the herd will validate itself for the sake of the herd and the herd’s agenda even when being wrong.

As far as that being arrogant, I reject that notion as there is nothing more arrogant than a self-validating herd spreading self-evident truths that are neither evident nor true.

This of course will upset some people. I am not tied to Palestinians or Islam any more than I am Jews or Israel or the United States.

My mind is not for rent to any G-d or government; it is though always searching for the truth, truths that are often obscured by the thundering hooves of a herd ready to rush in and trample over it for an agenda and to self-validate
their thinking and agenda. Often when it comes to Israeli and Zionist issues it is shockingly blatant and often patently offensive as the herd tries to drown out other questioning voices of reason to attempt to instill its self serving dogmas and agenda.

Should it be any consolation it is Rome behind the conspiracy I am on the heels of, the Habiru just play a part and most of them simply as manipulated patsies kept in a horde that is tightly controlled. They simply represent a ragtag collection of disparate personalities bound by common ideology and propaganda that imagine themselves to clever for their own good. Of course this makes them easy to manipulate and they surely are being exploited to their own ultimate detriment in that regard. The whole world is being manipulated through a trio of manufactured religions and sadly thanks to the events of yesterday we are one step closer to World War III as a result.

Everyone is ultimately going to loose except for a handful of oligarchs and principals that have been manipulating events towards and ultimate goal in a constant direction for thousands of years knowing that most people are too caught up in their own petty arguments and notions of arrogance, validation and absolution to stop it.

You might as will many others see that conflict as some type of solution and validation that absolves all the individual and collective bad actions that have led towards it.

I just see it for what it is, primitive people who thing with their emotions, reacting with their emotions, being manipulated by their emotions, let by their emotions to the carnal house and slaughter. War is not glorious my friend peace is glorious and Piracy by the way when carried about by any nation is an Act of War.

There is an excellent chance that events are about to spin out of control again in the next few days like in the aftermath of 9-11. I will be keeping my eye on them and be avoiding these contentious issues while doing that. I must withdraw from the thread. Please feel free to keep debating yourself in my absence you have been doing an excellent job of that! Thanks!

A lot of that looked like US Mil-spec, anyone in US Mil stores care to comment?

Seems that this thread is going to die out, so i thought i should just keep it slightly in perspective and mention that not everything related to Iran originates from outside the U.S. borders.

Dutch Firm and Two Officers Plead Guilty to Conspiracy to Export Aircraft Components and Other Goods to Iran

link