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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by centurion1211
Hizbollah's founding has nothing to do with Palestinian Refugees friend.
It was founded by Shia Muslims in the predominantly Shia south of Lebanon to counter Syrian backed militias to the north of them in Lebanon's long civil war.
Palestinians in Lebanon are restricted to Refugee Camps and have no Lebanese Citizenship or rights or privelages.
Hizbollah are Lebanese citizens and members of a rival Islamic sect than the Palestinians belong to.
I would love to actually see you walk up to a Hizbollah Member and tell them they are just a Palestinian.
Learn some real history.
Or are you really under the impression that stars and denial overcome history, geography and politcal factions so you can avoid having to say oops my bad!
An "embarrassing affair," is how one German diplomat described it. The official could also have added: potentially damaging to trans-Atlantic relations.
In an operation reported on by SPIEGEL over the weekend, US soldiers entered the freighter Hansa India in the Gulf of Suez at the beginning of October and discovered seven containers full of 7.62 millimeter ammunition suitable for Kalashnikov rifles. An eighth container was full of cartridges suitable for the manufacture of additional rounds. The incident is particularly awkward for Berlin as the Hansa India is registered to the Hamburg-based shipping company Leonhardt & Blumberg.
Originally posted by Ridhya
Originally posted by nenothtu
Of course, you can't get as much sympathy if your actually a productive member of society. Being refugees sells.
So theyve been refugees for 40 years for sympathy..? Because sympathy feeds their kids right? If that were true they would have learned 35 years ago its not damn working so I think there must be another problem.
Originally posted by Harlequin
i can see no one cares enough that the M344 A1 anti tank rounds are
and not iranian at all.
The confusion originated in the mid 80's, when Hizbollah and the PLO were both operating out of refugee camps in southern Lebanon, supporting one another. At that time, they were so intertwined as to be nearly indistinguishable, bound together by a common enemy, living in common conditions. It's hard to tell shia from sunni through a peep sight, especially when either one is energetically trying to kill you.
To Hizbollah's credit, they at least DID keep their eye on the ball, and never really got sidetracked into all that sectarian BS that was going on. They fought with Amal over control of some areas, but that can't really be considered sectarian, since Amal was shiite too.
After I thought about it and sorted it out, and realized you were right about that, another thought struck me. No one said Hizbollah was Palestinian but you. The gist of the discussion was that Israel had intercepted arms bound for Hizbollah in Lebanon. No one said they were bound for palestinians, and no one said they were bound for Gaza. Yet, inexplicably, you started accusing people of having said that, when in fact you are the one who brought up a link between Hizbollah and the palestinians first, and you were the first to mention "geography" and Gaza vs. Lebanon.
I had to ask myself why you would do that, when no one else had. Then it dawned on me. The purpose was to cloud the issue. A smoke screen. Misdirection. Leading the discussion away from the crimes at hand, i.e. smuggling weapons to Hizbollah by Iran. Hmmm... to further obfuscate that, you then accused Israel of "piracy", to shift attention from the actual crime committed. Hmmm...
Congrats. I bit before I thought. That don't happen often. Ya got me.
Now, as to the ground rules for a discussion, I note a decided avoidance of the question I posed in your ground rules. My question, if I must restate it to get an answer, was: how far back do we need to go to determine who did what to whom first, since your assertion was that the Israelis started everything.
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
This confusion generally does not occur when people stay at home in their own nations. That there was some blowback from forcing tens upon tens of thousands of indigenous people out of Palestine at gunpoint over the Lebanese border to ethnically cleanse a stolen territory is not a surprise to me friend. Is it really a surprise to you?
That both Hezbollah and the PLO where fighting a common enemy from a front line terrain does not make them any more intertwined than Americans at Omaha Beach and the British at Sword.
It’s a nice way to excuse the blatant deception you were called on which since you attempt to infer you were there in the ‘thick’ of things as a foreign interloper in Lebanon’s Civil War you certainly would know that the Palestinians and Hezbollah were not an aligned or affiliated organization. Hezbollah was formed by Shia in the South to counter Amas backed by Syria friend.
Israel simply became a common enemy when it invaded and provided cover for Lebanese Christian Militias to attack the Palestinian refugee camps.
It could be argued that much of what caused destabilization inside progressive and affluent Lebanon was the Palestinian issue Israel forced on it when it drove thousands upon thousands of unarmed peaceful Palestinian civilians over the Lebanese border and refused to allow them to return making them Lebanon’s problem.
However I do appreciate your qualified attempt to stand corrected with less humiliating deflections, as it is more than most of the people who also willfully posted erroneous information have been inclined to do.
Hezbollah is a credible political faction, civic and military organization. I personally consider many of Israel’s actions to also be terrorism and it is for disingenuous reasons that popularly accepted factions in their own countries are labeled as terrorists for simply valuing their own freedoms and sovereignty and having the courage to fight against a much better funded and backed enemy that wants to dominate them. I wouldn’t go so far as to call Hezbollah Freedom Fighters like we do when once again for propaganda purposes we are looking for a level of support gained simply through perception and distinction as opposed to the fact. Last century’s freedom fighters in Afghanistan are this century’s terrorists. The reality is nothing about them has changed except how Western Governments and Media want to exploit them and the purposes they want to exploit them for.
I reject the so called war on terror as robbing people of the dignity to be self determining and sovereign as we seek to infringe upon their sovereignty and tyrannize them for various forms of economic and political exploitation.
I reject all governments who wish to brainwash people in this or any fashion.
Sounds like a pretty disturbing reading comprehension problem to me considering you yourself admitted saying that Hezbollah was a Palestinian Organization.
Visit an optometrist reread the thread. I was responding to people who were claiming that this was proof that Palestinians are buying weapons instead of food.
As far as admitting your error this is one of the most qualified admissions of error I have ever seen and just like yesterday every one was trying to make Hezbollah be a Palestinian organization now we are going to try to pretend I some how tricked them into doing that?
Can you say desperate? I bet you can!
There is no proven crime at hand friend. Courts of Law determine if a crime has occurred and not the media and not internet forum gangs. I simply responded to the very real act of an aggressor nation in an act of piracy. I have demonstrated on this thread how it easy it is to fill out a Bill of Lading.
We are a long way from knowing the facts of this issue and we will never establish facts of this issue should a court of law not rule on it after a credible investigation of all the evidence. American Justice Standards are high friend and so are people’s with critical minds.
When you get done debating yourself, which is in reality all you are doing please let me know and we can discuss debating about the Habiru all six thousand years of their history friend. I am on ATS on the heels of a conspiracy not your run of the mill amateur propaganda and deflection for political purposes.
If you can’t debate in honest good faith in a credible manner then I can assure you I have no interest. So far you haven’t done that, and while you will look for more ways to qualify that and put that on me…that be on you!
Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
Here is the movie of what was caught on board. It is from IDF, so of course you can disregard it - but the fact is that Hizballah has weapons it does not produce. So they have to arrive from somewhere. And Iraq/Turkey/Saudi rout is closed.
Here is Youtube link
And i find it strange that writings on weapons are in English. Maybe Iran payed for it - but i doubt it was made in Iran. Or it is some kind of standart to write in English??
[edit on 4-11-2009 by ZeroKnowledge]
A Dutch aviation services company, its director and sales manager pleaded guilty today in the District of Columbia to federal charges related to a conspiracy to illegally export aircraft components and other items from the United States to entities in Iran via the Netherlands, the United Arab Emirates and Cyprus.
The announcement was made by David Kris, Assistant Attorney General for National Security; Channing D. Phillips, Acting U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia; and Kevin Delli-Colli, Acting Assistant Secretary of Commerce for Export Enforcement, and Sharon E. Woods, Director of the Defense Criminal Investigative Service. The investigation was conducted by agents from the Department of Commerce’s Office of Export Enforcement, with assistance from the Defense Criminal Investigative Service (DCIS), the Department of Homeland Security’s U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).