Number of victims to unknown virus growing! State of emergency to be imposed in Ukraine?

This in from reuters alert net



20 Nov 2009 20:42:10 GMT
Source: Reuters
(Adds details and reaction)

* Five H1N1 patients resistant to Tamiflu

* Possible person-to-person spread of resistant strain

LONDON, Nov 20 (Reuters) - British health officials are investigating the likely person-to-person spread of a drug-resistant strain of swine flu, the Health Protection Agency said on Friday.

There have been five confirmed cases in Wales of patients infected with H1N1 resistant to oseltamivir -- the generic name of Roche AG and Gilead Sciences Inc's antiviral drug Tamiflu, the agency said.

Four other patients are infected with H1N1 with the same genetic mutation but one was helped by Tamiflu and the status of three others is not clear. Another antiviral, GlaxoSmithKline and Biota Inc's Relenza, was effective in the patients, the HPA said.

The patients had serious conditions that suppressed their immune systems, which can give the virus a better than usual opportunity to develop resistance, the HPA added.

"Although further epidemiological investigation is underway, it would seem likely that transmission of oseltamivir-resitant H1N1 virus has taken place," it said in a statement. "At present we believe the risk to the general healthy population is low."

John McCauley of the Medical Research Council said the patients involved were in an at-risk group.

"It is well established that patients with immunodeficiency do have problems with eliminating virus, giving it a greater chance to acquire resistance," he said in a statement.

The World Health Organisation has reported 57 cases of Tamiflu resistance worldwide. There have not yet been any confirmed cases of person-to-person transmission, although a possible case in the United States is under investigation.

The British government launched a national pandemic flu service in July to allow people to get a diagnosis and prescription online or over the phone without visiting a doctor.

It said on Friday it was taking the development of a Tamiflu-resistant strain seriously but it would continue to offer the antiviral to all patients.

"Our strategy to offer antivirals to all patients with swine flu is the right one, to help prevent complications and reduce the severity of the illness," the Department of Health said in a statement.

British officials have confirmed the H1N1 virus has killed 214 people, but experts note that most people who are made sick by the virus are not tested.

A nationwide vaccination programme began last month, initially targeting those considered high risk, such as pregnant women and front-line healthcare workers.

Norwegian health authorities reported a mutation of H1N1 in some patients with severe disease but other officials noted quickly that other patients infected with the same mutant have had mild disease. [ID:nLK669768] (Reporting by Kylie MacLellan; editing by David Stamp)

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by Kailassa

 

Baxter did not issue contaminated material, they swapped one virus for another.

It was a virus to be used in testing a vaccine that was sent to 4 labs. Someone sent the avian flu sample instead of the swine flu sample.

There was no production vaccine involved and nothing involved was able to infect humans.

Someone made a mistake but this entire story about slipping live bird flu into a vaccine is false. People like Jane Burgermeister are turning it into something completely different.

Did you take the time to read the thread before jumping in? The internal EU documents on this have been posted several times.

LOL, not contaminated, just happened to contain live avian influenza virus that was not supposed to be there.


You're a real crack up today, asking me accusingly if I've read the thread, implying I've not seen this little slide-show, and then telling porkies, or should I say swinies, about the slide-show's contents.

It seems you haven't even read its title:

"European Biopreparedness and Baxter H5N1 Contamination issue"

files.abovetopsecret.com...

and I guess you didn't read page 11:

Baxter H5N1 event.

Contamination of an experimental live attenuated influenza A(H3N2) challenge virus with live A(H5N1) virus in a commercial research setting.(Orth, Donau)

And you must have missed page 12:

The Czech experience

* H3N2 nasal vaccine candidates in ferrets trial

* Approved by Board of Ministry of Industry and Trade (no danger pathogen)

* 31st Jan 2009 - Start of trial (5+5 ferrets, BSL2)

* 6th Feb 2009, 17:00 - Trial stopped on sponsor's request

* 6th Feb 2009, 18:56 - e-mail info on H5N1 contamination (section of ferrets stopped, Tamiflu to contacts - 13 exposures.

Why do you want to push the porkie that this contained H5N1 instead of H3N2, rather than it containing both?
Is it because you're aware of the likelihood of genes crossing from one to the other if both were used together in a live mist vaccine?
Bird flu, with a 60% kill rate, mixed with a current extremely contagious flu could have wiped out half the world's population if it got loose.

Come to think of it, you could expect a company which had done that to go to great lengths to keep people from comprehending the gravity of their "little mistake."

Now you might also have noticed by now that the H5N1 vaccine was used in the production of a flu mist, a live, inhaled vaccine.
This is what was being tested on the ferrets, and what the 13 workers were exposed to for a full week.

You insist this was not for use on humans. Tell me, was this 72 kilo of contaminated material the flu mist, or was it merely an ingredient of the flu mist? If it was prepared flu mist, how can you say it was not for humans? Since when has there been a demand for that quantity of inhaled vaccine to protect ferrets from the flu?

And if it was only an ingredient, how much lethal and contagious flu mist were Baxter planning to flood the market with?

In case you have not worked it out yet, the ferrets are not used to test the vaccines to see if they are safe or effective for ferrets. They are used to see if the vaccine will be safe and effective for humans.

Originally posted by nikiano
You know, I don't care what the WHO says....I don't believe for a second that this D225G mutation just "spontaneously" mutated in several people in Norway, and in the Ukraine, and is not being trasmitted person to person.

Do they think we're just stupid?

They know we are. They got away with creating AIDS twice.
They know that the more obscene a scheme is, the fewer people will dare look at it critically. Most folk find it too upsetting to have their faith in the basic benevolence of authority shaken.

Ok, if it spontaneously mutated in one person in Norway, and one person in Ukraine, and one person in Afghanistan, and one person in California....sure, I could believe that it was not being transmitted person to person.

But how can they say that it just "spontaneously mutated" in quite a few people in the same area at once? That is not spontaneous mutation...that is spontaneous mutation followed by person to person infection.

It seems to me the fact that it's mutated the same way in many places at the same time is the suspicious part.
It might be easier to believe if it was not public knowledge that the 1918 virus has been dug up and recreated, and the sequences causing the terrible virulence isolated and put into a normal flu virus to make sure it would convey the virulence to a new virus.

The info is all available in reputable science journals on the net if you are not already familiar with it.


The MO with creating AIDS was to repeatedly infect people, take blood samples, isolate the virus from the most serious cases and reinfect people.
It's a danger sign if they start asking for blood from large groups of infected individuals.

reply to post by Kailassa


baxter is part of big pharma.
big pharma is part of NWO.
they are planning such things years in advance. YEARS.
do you really think they are so stupid? do you think all the conspiracy loonies are geniuses opening people's eyes and that Jane Burgermeister is a hero?
good luck with that.

my point is, they aren't stupid. yes, they did contaminate that material. yes, they did it on purpose. but that leads us to the question, did they think it'll be unnoticed? of course not. how do you think, why did they say on polish TV not so long ago, that 'yes, we did it, by accident'? do you really think they had to? they didn't. they won't be even held responsible for that. case closed. it's all about making people believe what they want you to believe. it's in people's nature, especially in case of conspiracy loonies, to search for scandals, and when those are found, nothing else matters. and that's a HUGE mistake. if they are telling you something, you can be sure they're not telling you everything. being happy with the most obvious answers and theories, which you can be sure they have predicted years ago, is like asking for a disaster.

NWO is playing a game, doing the biggest false flag operation in human history - conspiracy false flag. they knew people will be more aware than some time ago. they knew some of their actions will get much more attention than they would want. the problem is, you're too easy to fool. they gave you 72kg carrot on a stick with baxter logo and you're chasing it like crazy, wasting your time and not noticing far more real dangers.

and, in my personal opinion, you are crossing the line a little bit. we had enough personal attacks here. can you just simply admit that we are humans just like you and that every single one of us has the right to have own opinion, without accusing anyone? i never said vaccines are good, and i am NOT recommending those. even more, i've stated many times i am NOT going to be vaccinated. over my dead body. so please, either change the tone or we have nothing to discuss.

[edit on 20-11-2009 by jedi_hamster]

another ukrainian blog. more than 1000 dead, over 2 millions diseased.
globalist.org.ua...

reply to post by Kailassa


Thank you for entering this thread, and for being another person willing to fight the propaganda machine.

Yeah, no way it was spontaneous mutation. It's either being transmitted person to person via air travel, or via spraying from airplanes, or via vaccination, or some other way...but no way was it a spontaneous mutation.

Edit to add:

And Jedi-gerbil, how dare you say Kailassa is crossing the line? Nothing of the sort is happening. If you can't stand a bit of intelligent debate, get out of the thread. You're just trying to scare away the new people who dare to challenge the Jedi-Eco Propaganda Team.




[edit on 20-11-2009 by nikiano]

[edit on 20-11-2009 by nikiano]

The point on Baxter is it was not a VACCINE.

I've only typed this about 80 times and I'm tired of it. If you want to argue that Jane B's story is true go right ahead, she'll make fools of you all in the end.

The ferrets had been vaccinated with a nasal spray.

Baxter sent the virus sample to test if they would get infected or not.

Are you incapable of understanding the difference?

It was not a vaccine that was "contaminated" - read what I typed again.

As for the "gene mixing" theory - I haven't seen one single qualified person make that accusation, it's junk science made up by people who don't understand that these viruses come together in the wild every day.

The point is for the 10th time, this was not a mistake made on a VACCINE which would be impossible, (something even the theorists admit when they claim it had to be intentional).

I haven't minimized what happened but I'm not going to run around screaming the end of the World is here over it - the level of danger to people in this case was non existent.

People are exaggerating what happened to try and put forth a scenario which will not happen and could not happen. If you can't comprehend the difference then good luck. I deal in facts and truths, not made up fiction to push agendas.

Originally posted by jedi_hamster
reply to post by Kailassa

 

baxter is part of big pharma.
big pharma is part of NWO.
they are planning such things years in advance. YEARS.
do you really think they are so stupid? do you think all the conspiracy loonies are geniuses opening people's eyes and that Jane Burgermeister is a hero?
good luck with that.

my point is, they aren't stupid. yes, they did contaminate that material. yes, they did it on purpose. but that leads us to the question, did they think it'll be unnoticed? of course not. how do you think, why did they say on polish TV not so long ago, that 'yes, we did it, by accident'? do you really think they had to? they didn't. they won't be even held responsible for that. case closed. it's all about making people believe what they want you to believe. it's in people's nature, especially in case of conspiracy loonies, to search for scandals, and when those are found, nothing else matters. and that's a HUGE mistake. if they are telling you something, you can be sure they're not telling you everything. being happy with the most obvious answers and theories, which you can be sure they have predicted years ago, is like asking for a disaster.

NWO is playing a game, doing the biggest false flag operation in human history - conspiracy false flag. they knew people will be more aware than some time ago. they knew some of their actions will get much more attention than they would want. the problem is, you're too easy to fool. they gave you 72kg carrot on a stick with baxter logo and you're chasing it like crazy, wasting your time and not noticing far more real dangers.

and, in my personal opinion, you are crossing the line a little bit. we had enough personal attacks here. can you just simply admit that we are humans just like you and that every single one of us has the right to have own opinion, without accusing anyone? i never said vaccines are good, and i am NOT recommending those. even more, i've stated many times i am NOT going to be vaccinated. over my dead body. so please, either change the tone or we have nothing to discuss.

[edit on 20-11-2009 by jedi_hamster]

Actually I'd been really nice to you,
www.abovetopsecret.com...
and you replied with the most unlikely conspiracy theory ever, while you put down anyone who believes in conspiracy theories.

Then you try to smear me with guilt by association, by making out I regard Jane Burgermeister is a hero. For all I know she might be a hero, but I wouldn't know as I have never read any of her writing or even looked at her web page.

And next you tell me I'm "too easy to fool" because I don't believe a company commits and admits to criminal negligence just to pull the wool over the public's eyes and stop them selling buying the vaccines they sell.
Besides, if you'd bothered reading my posts in this thread you'd know I'm drawing on 60 years of history, and have only referred to the Baxter incident to straighten out untruths that have been told about it.

You say you are not pushing vaccines yet you make the most twisted, round about argument to convince people that the NWO is trying to stop them getting vaccinated so they'll die of the flu instead. I find that deceitful.

Your present postulate, that Baxter, who look to "make a killing" with their vaccine, contaminated 72 kilo of material for vaccines with a deadly virus and voluntarily admitted to it just so people would find out about it and refuse the vaccination, coupled with your insistence that you are not trying to talk people into getting vaccinated, does not improve with rereading.

You really are the last person who should refer to others as "conspiracy loonies."

Originally posted by ecoparity
The point on Baxter is it was not a VACCINE.

That's funny. I could have sworn your point was that :

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by Kailassa

 

Baxter did not issue contaminated material, they swapped one virus for another.

I've only typed this about 80 times and I'm tired of it. If you want to argue that Jane B's story is true go right ahead, she'll make fools of you all in the end.

You really act blinded with hatred for that woman, imagining everyone who points out your logical inconsistencies is an avid disciple of hers. Or are you using this to smear me by association? Waste of you time, all I know about her is what I read in your posts, and that leaves me inclined to think she must have something going for her.

The ferrets had been vaccinated with a nasal spray.

Baxter sent the virus sample to test if they would get infected or not.

Are you incapable of understanding the difference?

Are you incapable of posting without sarcasm?
ATS really needs a courtesy course.

You can believe Baxter that this was for a challenge virus if you like. I can tell you that you don't make 72 kilo of a challenge virus for a few ferrets.

Would you like to explain why Baxter would even possess 72 kilo of live H5N1 challenge virus?

It was not a vaccine that was "contaminated" - read what I typed again.

Ok, I'll read what you typed again:

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by Kailassa

 

Baxter did not issue contaminated material, they swapped one virus for another.

That's rather different to what you now claim you said. Perhaps you should read your old posts again.
As I pointed out, Baxter claim 3 times in the material you show, to have sent out contaminated material.

As for the "gene mixing" theory - I haven't seen one single qualified person make that accusation, it's junk science made up by people who don't understand that these viruses come together in the wild every day.

I see you don't understand genetic re-assortment. You should, because it's considered to be an important factor in evolution, not just in the development of viruses.

Multiple genetic reassortment of avian and human influenza A viruses in European pigs, resulting in the emergence of an H1N2 virus of novel genotype

Novel H1N2 influenza A viruses which were first detected in pigs in Great Britain in 1994 were examined antigenically and genetically to determine their origins and establish the potential mechanisms for genetic reassortment. The haemagglutinin (HA) of all swine H 1 N2 viruses examined was most closely related to, but clearly distinguishable both antigenically and genetically from, the HA of human H1N1 viruses which circulated in the human population during the early 1 980s. Phylogenetic analysis of the HA gene revealed that the swine H 1 N2 viruses formed a distinct branch on the human lineage and were probably introduced to pigs shortly after 1980. Following apparent transfer to pigs the HA gene underwent genetic variation resulting in the establishment and cocirculation of genetically and antigenically heterogeneous virus populations. Genetic analyses of the other RNA segments of all swine H1N2 viruses indicated that the neuraminidase gene was most closely related to those of early 'human-like' swine H3N2 viruses, whilst the RNA segments encoding PB2, PB1, PA, NP, M and NS were related most closely to those of avian viruses, which have been circulating recently in pigs in Northern Europe. The potential mechanisms and probable progenitor strains for genetic reassortment are discussed, but we propose that the swine H1N2 viruses examined originated following multiple genetic reassortment, initially involving human H1N1 and 'human-like' swine H3N2 viruses, followed by reassortment with 'avian-like' swine H1N1 virus. These findings suggest multiple reassortment and replication of influenza viruses may occur in pigs many years before their detection as clinical entities.

vir.sgmjournals.org...

I hope this is enough to convince you there can be reassortment between human and avian influenza viruses when one animal is infected with both.

Would you like me to explain the mechanisms by which this takes place?

The point is for the 10th time, this was not a mistake made on a VACCINE which would be impossible, (something even the theorists admit when they claim it had to be intentional).

You count yourself as a theorist? It's an easy label to qualify for.

I haven't minimized what happened but I'm not going to run around screaming the end of the World is here over it - the level of danger to people in this case was non existent.

Pity the lab didn't have you there to tell them that. They could have avoided treating the 13 lab workers with Tamiflu and taking them all to hospital.

I deal in facts and truths, not made up fiction to push agendas.

Good thing you pointed that out to me.




[edit on 20/11/09 by Kailassa]

reply to post by Kailassa


If you believe in the Baxter conspiracy then you have Jane Burgermiester to thank for it, she's the source of the entire thing.

She's also the only person to make the claim of "72 kilos" of material. That's her making the quote in the Polish TV video everyone likes to post as proof.

I'll go with the official version of events as related in the EU briefing.

Just to get this straight, you keep making arguments and comments about the Baxter incident yet claim you don't get them from Jane Burgermeister?

That indicates your entire source for your position is secondary blogs and discussions, you've never even gone to the primary source on the issue.

Believe what you want to believe, I don't waste my time on fools.

Originally posted by nikiano
reply to post by Kailassa

 

. . .
Yeah, no way it was spontaneous mutation. It's either being transmitted person to person via air travel, or via spraying from airplanes, or via vaccination, or some other way...but no way was it a spontaneous mutation.
. . .

It seems to me one would only use aeroplanes as a means to spread a virus if that virus had inefficient infectability. If the virus is highly infective you could spread it all around the world in a week by sending one person with a few atomisers on a few plane trips. It takes very little virus to expose everyone on a plane. For a more local spread a few buses would do.

So either the planes were not spreading the virus, or the virus is not very contagious and the area is being carefully targeted for a reason. (Or it's not being purposely spread at all.)

reply to post by Kailassa


at the beginning, i'll make it clear. this is my last post in this thread.

Originally posted by Kailassa

 

Actually I'd been really nice to you[...]

that wasn't the post i was reffering to, and you know that perfectly.

Originally posted by Kailassa

 

So even though Baxter admitted they issued material contaminated with live avian influenza virus you don't believe them, because that goes against the agenda you pretend to not be pushing?

 

I didn't realise you just wanted to invent whatever conspiracy you could to support your theory that we're all gonna die of this terrible disease if we don't get vaccinated.

nothing but false accusations. i never claimed vaccines are good and i'm constantly warning people NOT to get them.

Originally posted by Kailassa

 

And next you tell me I'm "too easy to fool" because I don't believe a company commits and admits to criminal negligence just to pull the wool over the public's eyes and stop them selling buying the vaccines they sell.

nothing personal here, 'you' meant people hating baxter so much that they start attacking everyone that proves them they're wrong. again, don't misinterpret this. i don't like baxter as well. but your behaviour is kinda like trying to get rid of me from this thread. you weren't here as i understand, then your ATS friend nikiano welcomes you here, one of your first posts is an attack on me, next on ecoparity, then nikiano tells me to get out of here. coincidence? i don't think so. but as you wish, i have better things to do.

Originally posted by nikiano

 

Thank you for entering this thread, and for being another person willing to fight the propaganda machine.

this says it all.

Originally posted by Kailassa

 

You say you are not pushing vaccines yet you make the most twisted, round about argument to convince people that the NWO is trying to stop them getting vaccinated so they'll die of the flu instead. I find that deceitful.

Your present postulate, that Baxter, who look to "make a killing" with their vaccine, contaminated 72 kilo of material for vaccines with a deadly virus and voluntarily admitted to it just so people would find out about it and refuse the vaccination, coupled with your insistence that you are not trying to talk people into getting vaccinated, does not improve with rereading.

as Kirk said to Spock, it doesn't even compute for you. but it's your problem that it doesn't, that you find it deceitful - while it isn't, and that you have absolutely no proofs for your claims others than let's ride this bandwagon, everyone says same thing, they can't be wrong.

you're making one simple mistake. the fact that someone thinks vaccines are not meant to kill us, doesn't mean he claims that vaccines are good. actually i think vaccines are meant to destroy our DNA permanently. it doesn't make any sense to put any sort of bioweapon in a vaccine, when there are better and less expensive ways to accomplish the same thing - depopulation. but, of course, most of the people on this planet are refusing the vaccination, so it has to be it - vaccines are meant to kill us, because if that's not the case, we're not winning but loosing. and we'll never admit that we're so wrong and easy to manipulate, right?

you won't see me in this thread again. have fun with attacking those that are trying to help, while you can. in one day, sooner than later, it will compute for you - but it'll be too late. it already is.

i'm done.

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by Kailassa

 

If you believe in the Baxter conspiracy then you have Jane Burgermiester to thank for it, she's the source of the entire thing.

She's also the only person to make the claim of "72 kilos" of material. That's her making the quote in the Polish TV video everyone likes to post as proof.

I'll go with the official version of events as related in the EU briefing.

Just to get this straight, you keep making arguments and comments about the Baxter incident yet claim you don't get them from Jane Burgermeister?

That indicates your entire source for your position is secondary blogs and discussions, you've never even gone to the primary source on the issue.

Believe what you want to believe, I don't waste my time on fools.

I'm the fool and you're the one who denied the possibility of genetic reassortment between influenza strains?

If trying to teach you something to stop you making a fool of yourself gets that as a response, I guess you just want to spout Jane-hate, ignorance and rudeness.

Baxter are free to deny the statement that they released 72 kilo of H5N1 contaminated material any time they like.

reply to post by Kailassa


Before you type up another page long argument...

This thread is for discussion of the events in Ukraine. I've already wasted more time than I like going back and forth with people who have no interest in real conspiracy research or in keeping tabs on events.

I suspect you just want to argue the vaccination issue.

Go for it, I won't be participating in further distractions to the thread so you have a free shot, go ahead and enjoy it.

With the news that the Ukraine mutation has spread across more than one continent I suspect all the vaccine hysteria will be cast aside in the near future anyway.

The people who helped spread all the lies will be laying low in the future, I suspect - if they survive. Quite a few people who were foolish enough to listen are going to lose loved ones and they are NOT going to be happy about being lied to.

So, here's your platform to take the thread back a week, thanks for coming in to hit the rewind button for us all. Enjoy!

Originally posted by jedi_hamster
. . .
your behaviour is kinda like trying to get rid of me from this thread. you weren't here as i understand, then your ATS friend nikiano welcomes you here, one of your first posts is an attack on me, next on ecoparity, then nikiano tells me to get out of here. coincidence? i don't think so. but as you wish, i have better things to do. . . . .

I'm sorry you feel this way, but considering all the posts I have made in this thread, and how nice I was to you, to think I am here to attack you does indicate a degree of paranoia.
This puts your posts about Baxter in quite a different light. It's no wonder you believe they would spend years planning to ruin their own reputation just to stop you using their vaccine so you would die.
So I can see now I should have been more gentle with you.

Now let's put this behind us and stop hijacking the thread.

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by Kailassa

 

Before you type up another page long argument...

This thread is for discussion of the events in Ukraine. I've already wasted more time than I like going back and forth with people who have no interest in real conspiracy research or in keeping tabs on events.

I suspect you just want to argue the vaccination issue.

Go for it, I won't be participating in further distractions to the thread so you have a free shot, go ahead and enjoy it.

With the news that the Ukraine mutation has spread across more than one continent I suspect all the vaccine hysteria will be cast aside in the near future anyway.

The people who helped spread all the lies will be laying low in the future, I suspect - if they survive. Quite a few people who were foolish enough to listen are going to lose loved ones and they are NOT going to be happy about being lied to.

So, here's your platform to take the thread back a week, thanks for coming in to hit the rewind button for us all. Enjoy!

Are you really upset because I don't trust the swine flu vaccinations?
This is a discussion board. If you can't handle people disagreeing this is going to be a pretty uncomfortable place for you.

People who disagree with you are not necessarily liars, and your "Armageddon" type talk is reminiscent of the born again Christians threatening unbelievers with hell.

Tell me again, what proportion of those infected in Ukraine have died?
What proportion on the infected in 1918 died?

Disease can be fought by good health and natural strategies.

If you have private information of something worse than the 1918 flu in the works, perhaps you would like to inform us and tell us how you know rather than utter petulant threats.

If something much worse than the 1918 flu does turn up, the present vaccinations certainly are not going to help.

If Jane is a stooge she is there to trick people certain people into buying the "official" EU report.

My god where am I? This is ATS isn't it. We know what the EU stands for don't we?

Gotta say Kailassa, nice work.

[edit on 21-11-2009 by squiz]

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by Kailassa

 

SNIP

With the news that the Ukraine mutation has spread across more than one continent I suspect all the vaccine hysteria will be cast aside in the near future anyway.

The people who helped spread all the lies will be laying low in the future, I suspect - if they survive. Quite a few people who were foolish enough to listen are going to lose loved ones and they are NOT going to be happy about being lied to.

SNIP

Firstly, we have no idea who may be spreading lies or even telling the truth - it could be the vaccine companies, it could be our governments and it could even be the scientists. I've read your thread that says how many 1000s would need to be involved to pull off a lie like this but just look at the climate change leaked info to know that they are quite capable of lying. Maybe because they'll lose next year's research budget or whatever but they are capable. Too many people hear that it's approved by science or a doctor and just assume that they're Gods and won't lie or get it wrong.

I've even been on the receiving end, regarding another drug, but can't speak about it at the moment because there's a legal case going on that involves many others, not just me. The particular company has already changed it's patient insert, amongst other things. So from personal experience I know that drug companies lie about their supposed test results.

For me, and most others, this isn't about just Baxter - some of us are just suspicious of all synthetic medicines and usually because of a personal bad experience or from knowing someone else with a bad experience. I could add to my own about my own son's treatment and my nephew ending up in the ICU but I don't want to go on and on and sound like a poor me person. That's 3 close relatives, in 1 family, with 3 different experiences that ended very badly over about a 2 year period so I think I have good reason to be wary of big pharma, doctors, etc.

Basically, in a long winded way I'm trying to say that this isn't just anti Baxter or any particular brand it's suspicion of big pharma in general. I don't believe they're trying to kill us all off because what would they gain? I don't even think they want to kill off the weak and vulnerable because they're the ones that make them the most money. No point just having the strong and healthy survive because we don't need lots of medications or long stays in hospitals. I do think that there's a possibility that we could end up with a reduced population in the next generation or two because of people becoming sterile from the vaccine. In 20 years or so will people tie the vaccine now with the amount of sterile people? Maybe, but most people will have already forgotten about this.

Actions speak louder than words and for the vaccine companies to have made it so we can't claim compensation for any severe side effects or deaths just really doesn't sit well with me. If they are so sure that the vaccine is safe then why not stand by it? If I went to a shop to buy something and it had no warranty or guarantee and I was told that if it's faulty then tough, I wouldn't buy the item!

Back to the Ukraine mutation having spread to other continents - I've only read this last page and will have to read back a few (since my last post yesterday) but can someone quickly summarise which continents it's spread to? I've heard about the Tamiflu resistant/person to person infections in Wales, the mutated version in Norway and, of course, Poland and Ukraine. I did mention earlier that the reason I'm so interested in following Ukraine is to see a) the mortality rate from this 'new' version of the virus and b) if it begins to spread out of Ukraine.

Also, although this is being compared to the 1918 virus, even if it does behave the same way, times have changed a lot and so has our knowledge and capabilities in how we deal with deadly diseases. Even the speed at which we can be updated about what is happening can make all the difference, this time round.

Everyone has an agenda or sorts and mine is to protect my children by being as informed as possible about what is going on and what might be the consequences. The most important thing is to deny ignorance and question everything!

Edit for spelling!

[edit on 21-11-2009 by Maya00a]

Originally posted by JBA2848
www.wdsu.com...

WHO Investigating Norway Swine Flu Mutations
The same mutation has been found in both fatal and mild cases elsewhere, including in Brazil, China, Japan, Mexico, Ukraine, and the United States, said WHO.

Regarding my last post asking about which continents it has spread to. The above post was posted during the middle of night, on the page before this one.

Just thought I'd re-post it for anyone else in Europe that's just waking up and looking for the latest info/updates.