Number of victims to unknown virus growing! State of emergency to be imposed in Ukraine?

72 kilos of virus mutation released so that people would become infected. Because if the strong build immunities they will be ready for the 2nd wave that will come next year. Maybe this was a precaution that the government was sold on for the long term.
Consider that the government has inside information and plans for the future and they know the possibilities of the condition of the world in 2010 and 2012. If the sim was done for 2012 and it indicated that the population would be doubled because of mass immigration and with that the diseases would kill the locals, and the only way to keep a healthy culture is to cultivate their immunology then of course they would make the decision to spend that money. But that's not a plan that would easily pass the public scrutiny therefore decision makers are making hard choices. In the long run the result will be utilitairan but in the short term there will be lots of chaos.
What decision would you make if you were in leadership?

reply to post by Maya00a


So every climatologist in the entire World is on the global warming side? Apparently "they" were only able to influence so many given more than half of them are on the other side of the issue.

The popular conspiracy is the same way - unless they can control every scientist in the entire World capable of analyzing a virus or testing a vaccine they can't accomplish the plan without being caught.

Just like global warming, at least a few are going to speak out and leave a debate on the table for people to take sides on.

The anti-vaccine crowd paints anyone who dares to disagree with them as being a "big pharma supporter". They just can't believe there's a balanced point of view in there somewhere.

I'm speaking out about lies being used to manipulate people, I'm not defending the drug companies, in fact I've made several posts in which I make my position perfectly clear. Every few pages someone else comes along, picks a fight over the Baxter incident and uses my position on it to try and paint me as being a supporter of big pharma and so on.

I don't get into bed with parties who have to use dishonest tactics to try and push their agenda, regardless of how the conspiracy shapes up. Real conspiracies don't require lies and word games to stand - they are self evident.

The new strain of swine flu is spreading and thanks to a two week incubation period you won't realize it until it's too late. People are here because they obviously have questions and want to know what's really going on since the WHO and media won't tell them.

Those of you who made your minds up that it's all a hoax meant to get the bioweapon vaccine into you have no purpose here other than to try and push your agenda onto others. I'm not telling anyone what to do, I think each person has to make a decision on their own, especially when it might mean life or death.

Maybe it's just me but I don't want a bunch of lies involved in that decision process. Like it or not, Jane Burgermeister and the GLP forum have done just that, inserted lies into the equation. I have more respect for other people's lives, especially their children than to do that.

Anyone continuing to pimp those falsehoods needs to take that fact seriously enough to either give it a full investigation or stop contributing to the confusion. You might very well end up helping someone to die.

I'm here to help give people accurate information and that doesn't include further childish debates with people I feel are being completely irresponsible. If that means ignoring attacks or placing the people who launch them on ignore then so be it.

reply to post by Maya00a


I sympathise with people with kids.
It's a lot easier when you only have to decide for yourself.
As an older person and given the known kill rate in UK, personally I prefer not to take vaccine. Nor do I look like being offered it any time soon.
But if a much more lethal version starts spreading, I might have to re-assess.
Meanwhile it's natural for us to look at other remedies and building up our immune system. Just a note of caution. Manufactured vitamins and the like are just another version of BIG PHARMA. People tend to have a very simplistic view - like it's a case of the good against the bad.
I have seen total contradictory advice on the net about what is safe and how supplements react with each other. Also contradicting advice about over the counter medication and it's use for swine flu.
We owe it to ourselves and our families to research from as many sources as possible. Don't just take one persons word for it.


[edit on 21-11-2009 by unicorn1]

If this whole swine flu pandemic is a concerted effort by nefarious forces to make people sick and die, I find this bit of news very interesting:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by Maya00a

 

So every climatologist in the entire World is on the global warming side? Apparently "they" were only able to influence so many given more than half of them are on the other side of the issue.

The popular conspiracy is the same way - unless they can control every scientist in the entire World capable of analyzing a virus or testing a vaccine they can't accomplish the plan without being caught.

Just like global warming, at least a few are going to speak out and leave a debate on the table for people to take sides on.

The anti-vaccine crowd paints anyone who dares to disagree with them as being a "big pharma supporter". They just can't believe there's a balanced point of view in there somewhere.

I'm speaking out about lies being used to manipulate people, I'm not defending the drug companies, in fact I've made several posts in which I make my position perfectly clear. Every few pages someone else comes along, picks a fight over the Baxter incident and uses my position on it to try and paint me as being a supporter of big pharma and so on.

I don't get into bed with parties who have to use dishonest tactics to try and push their agenda, regardless of how the conspiracy shapes up. Real conspiracies don't require lies and word games to stand - they are self evident.

The new strain of swine flu is spreading and thanks to a two week incubation period you won't realize it until it's too late. People are here because they obviously have questions and want to know what's really going on since the WHO and media won't tell them.

Those of you who made your minds up that it's all a hoax meant to get the bioweapon vaccine into you have no purpose here other than to try and push your agenda onto others. I'm not telling anyone what to do, I think each person has to make a decision on their own, especially when it might mean life or death.

Maybe it's just me but I don't want a bunch of lies involved in that decision process. Like it or not, Jane Burgermeister and the GLP forum have done just that, inserted lies into the equation. I have more respect for other people's lives, especially their children than to do that.

Anyone continuing to pimp those falsehoods needs to take that fact seriously enough to either give it a full investigation or stop contributing to the confusion. You might very well end up helping someone to die.

I'm here to help give people accurate information and that doesn't include further childish debates with people I feel are being completely irresponsible. If that means ignoring attacks or placing the people who launch them on ignore then so be it.

Whoa, whoa, whoa!!!

Your post is in reply to my post but I hope that not all your comments are directed straight at me, especially the "You might very well end up helping someone to die."

By asking questions, no-one here is helping anyone to die!

By giving opinions, no-one here is helping anyone to die!

Besides, if you end up being wrong, which is also a possibility at this point in time, then I could say the same about maybe you helped someone to die!!

I haven't once commented on the personal arguments taking place throughout this thread but your comments in a direct reply to my post suggesting helping someone to die is extremely insulting.

The majority of us here are intelligent adults that are quite capable of reading the information/opinions of others without being blindly lead. If we all just believed what the MSN told us we wouldn't be members of a conspiracy forum in the first place.

"I'm here to help give people accurate information and that doesn't include further childish debates with people I feel are being completely irresponsible."

Accurate information as far as YOU are concerned - unfortunately that doesn't actually make YOU right and everyone else wrong. You are perfectly entitled to give your opinions but why do you think debate is childish? Personally, I want to hear all sides and at the end of the day each and every one of us will have to make the best informed decision we can for ourselves and our families but I'm no more likely to just blindly follow anyone on ATS than I am the MSN.

We may never know the entire truth about this flu, the mutations or the vaccines but some of us are at least responsible enough to research, ask questions and try to draw the best conclusions we can to protect our families.

Do not insult the intelligence of ATS members that they blindly read and believe anyone that spouts anything on these boards! The motto is to DENY IGNORANCE!

Edit to add a reply to your comment about climatologists - I was so taken aback about your comments about helping someone to die that I forgot to reply to it originally. "So every climatologist in the entire World is on the global warming side? Apparently "they" were only able to influence so many given more than half of them are on the other side of the issue."

Now where did I say EVERY climatologist in the entire World is on the global warming side? You really are stretching and twisting words there because my comment regarding that matter was to show that not all scientists tell the truth, all the time!

WOW! I am literally shaking with anger at your comments to my post and where as I was prepared to listen to you before, with an open mind, I really do not appreciate you twisting my words and trying to put the death of someone on to me. What the hell is that all about and why would you think that will sway me to see you as someone with credible information?

Another edit because I also forgot to reply to your comment "Every few pages someone else comes along, picks a fight over the Baxter incident and uses my position on it to try and paint me as being a supporter of big pharma and so on."

I made it clear why I mistrust ALL pharmacutical companies, in my last post. I also do not understand why you think I came along and picked a fight over Baxter? What exactly did I say that referred directly to picking a fight over Baxter? I couldn't give a stuff about Baxter! My issue is with ALL drug companies and from personal experience and from a mum's point of view, trying to sieve through ALL the contradictory information to make an informed decision about my children.

[edit on 21-11-2009 by Maya00a

[edit on 21-11-2009 by Maya00a]

reply to post by Maya00a


Obviously not all of my post was directed at you, I was explaining the overall situation.

I've provided sources and documentation for anything I've posted.

There is one source behind the Baxter story, Jane Burgermeister and half the people arguing about it haven't even bothered to check into the source of origin. They just take the reports being passed on by people like Alex Jones and assume they are true.

On July 23rd Jane posted that a military drill in the US was going to be used to launch martial law and that everyone should start attacking FEMA and other government facilities, PREEMPTIVELY.

Usually when someone in the alt media proposes acts of violence without getting arrested or even questioned it's a fairly good bet they are agent provocateurs.

That's the person who gave us the inside story on the "Baxter Incident". A few of us try to give you the actual government documents, an interview with a retired government health official who would have been directly involved in such an incident and we're attacked for it.

I can't help but notice no one is reporting the truth on this or at least "my side of it" as you say. The entire alt media community minus a couple of people are repeating Jane's lies like their gospel and the rest of the sources are pushing the WHO official party line.

There aren't very many of us over here on this side of the fence but somehow we're the bad guys with an agenda in all this? Whatever...

Let's stick to news and updates on Ukraine and save the distractions for the threads they belong in.

Originally posted by ecoparity
Obviously the chart I posted only has the "official" deaths on it. I wanted to see if anyone would notice the 500 or so missing deaths in Europe.

SNIP

I did. I thought about it as common sense in western Europe/US that Ukraine is not Europe. In fact it is and the "important" western part of Russia also. Usually dumb journalists do this mistake. It is quite surprising in WHO report so maybe other explanation should be at place.

I'll finish reading new posts and then I'll reread the "EU" document as I mentioned yesterday.

regards
z.

Who's Who.
Alex Jones definate opponent of Bilderburg Group.
Big Pharma tool of Bilderburg Group?
Us=peons.
Nimin?
Jane?
Mike=hot.
Asen=infected.
WHO=UN (Ted Turner)
Octopus=Paul Allen=vaccination program in Africa.

[edit on 21-11-2009 by JJay55]

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by Maya00a

 

Obviously not all of my post was directed at you, I was explaining the overall situation.

I've provided sources and documentation for anything I've posted.

There is one source behind the Baxter story, Jane Burgermeister and half the people arguing about it haven't even bothered to check into the source of origin. They just take the reports being passed on by people like Alex Jones and assume they are true.

On July 23rd Jane posted that a military drill in the US was going to be used to launch martial law and that everyone should start attacking FEMA and other government facilities, PREEMPTIVELY.

Usually when someone in the alt media proposes acts of violence without getting arrested or even questioned it's a fairly good bet they are agent provocateurs.

That's the person who gave us the inside story on the "Baxter Incident". A few of us try to give you the actual government documents, an interview with a retired government health official who would have been directly involved in such an incident and we're attacked for it.

I can't help but notice no one is reporting the truth on this or at least "my side of it" as you say. The entire alt media community minus a couple of people are repeating Jane's lies like their gospel and the rest of the sources are pushing the WHO official party line.

There aren't very many of us over here on this side of the fence but somehow we're the bad guys with an agenda in all this? Whatever...

Let's stick to news and updates on Ukraine and save the distractions for the threads they belong in.

Fine by me to stick to updates on Ukraine and the virus spread. As I've said many times that's why I'm here - for information and updates and if/when the time comes that I need to consider the vaccine for my family I will make that decision based on what I've learned from many different sources, not just comments and opinions on ATS. Believe it or not, some of us do have enough intelligence not to blindly read something on a conspiracy forum and believe it must be true.

However, I certainly didn't appreciate your comments about anyone on ATS contributing to someone's death, whether directed at me or anyone else.

I've also never commented about Baxter or Jane Burgemeister- I'm aware of that conspiracy but don't recall commenting on it in this thread or any others, when it was first reported. I may have but at this moment in time, Baxter and Jane really aren't my main concern. They may fit into the jigsaw somewhere but right now I'm much more interested in Ukraine, the virus mutating and the mortality rates of the mutated version.

Once again, just to be clear, my main concern is to make decisions for my own family and certainly not to advise anyone else - I'm not a doctor and I have no medical background or contacts, other than my own GP. That does not mean I do not have questions and I should be able to ask them here and get replies without being accused of Baxter bashing or being anti vaccine.

There's no point having a forum where we can't ask questions or give our opinions. You can't expect us all to just blindly follow yours or another ATSers posts without questions. The day we do that then ATS will be no more and we may as well sit in front of our TV screens and blindly follow what we're told on the news stations.

OK - I'm going to do a bit more research about Baxter and Jane seeing as it seems to be such a big deal on this thread about Ukraine. Not sure how they directly tie together about the Ukraine issue although I'm aware of the conspiracy about Baxter and what Jane Burgemeister has to say about it. Anyone care to connect the dots for me on what ties Baxter, Jane and Ukraine together - I think I'm missing something. Were the contaminated samples/vaccines/whatever it was Baxter sent out, originally headed for Ukraine? If so, I missed that bit of info. Right, I'm off to research and read....

Who wants to speculate with me?

www.vaccinetruth.org...
Bill Gates pumping 80 billion into saving children in third world (developing) nations. So they can buy more computers.

Bildeburgs meeting in 2009 discussed population explosion.

Ted Turner the UN funding chairman says everyone should be limited to 2 children.

Russia, US, UK supplying arms to fight wars, which isn't killing people fast enough.

Mossad did their part with delivering AIDS to Africa in the 80's still the population is increasing despite over 12 million infected. Because immuno drugs are brought in.

So the discussions about population are taking place among those who can deliver solutions. Instead of us discussing every little freeking detail of who did what and Baxter blah blah blah can someone supply me with some motives here, assuming this is a designer biological and Pharma has changed DNA and immunities into a giant clusterf*ck.

Someone stated a point in another thread I was reading
About when it comes to the amount of people who have died from the swine flu

Where is the death count of people struck down by the normal yearly flu ???

Washington Post: In Ukraine, H1N1 pandemic sets off panic and politicking

KIEV, UKRAINE -- One night at the height of the panic over what people here call the California flu, as 24-hour news stations tracked a rising death toll and politicians speculated about a mystery lung plague, Ukraine's prime minister rushed to the airport to greet a shipment of Tamiflu as if it were a foreign dignitary. Not to be outdone, the president, a bitter political foe, dispatched a top aide to meet the plane, too.

Graphic case chart (Uses WHO statistics)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/af2274fa5697.jpg[/atsimg]

Roughly 5-6 thousand deaths world-wide by WHO count

[edit on 21-11-2009 by ecoparity]

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by Kailassa

 

If you believe in the Baxter conspiracy then you have Jane Burgermiester to thank for it, she's the source of the entire thing.

She's also the only person to make the claim of "72 kilos" of material. That's her making the quote in the Polish TV video everyone likes to post as proof.

I'll go with the official version of events as related in the EU briefing.

Just to get this straight, you keep making arguments and comments about the Baxter incident yet claim you don't get them from Jane Burgermiester?

That indicates your entire source for your position is secondary blogs and discussions, you've never even gone to the primary source on the issue.

Believe what you want to believe, I don't waste my time on fools.

Hey pal!

I don't know why you keep arguing against these facts?

Look! Not everyone here is following Jane Burgermiester blindly or read her site, but what she says about this incident happens to be correct!

When it all happened in the beginning of February 2009 there where severals articles and news-snippets from the European mass media about this Baxter incident that we could link to here - and we did so in the threads that were started - and there was a big discussion here about it.

I think even Bloomberg-News wrote an article which most accepted as proof to exactly what happened in that Czech facility when someone there thanks to God & just by chance tested a part of the 72 kg of vaccine material which were meant for vaccine production by sub-contractors to Baxter, on those poor ferrets.

Fast forward to today!

I now tried to find those article and European news-snippets to show you, but they have unfortunately being cleaned out from the net - and I wonder why they disappeared when we suddenly got a pandemic on our hands 2 months later. How strange! why did they censure and cleaned out those news-articles you think

You can have whatever opinion you like about this, it's your right!

I'm only telling you that I and many more here in Europe and on ATS read those articles and watched it on our news channels - heck! I also even saw the other "train transported virus sample exploding" incident in Switzerland on the TV news where they showed an empty train on a station surrounded by cops and investigators.

So I have both seen and read about these two incidents WHEN IT HAPPENED! - and I don't get my news from Jane Burgermiester, heck! she wasn't even known in February of 2009 when we where discussing this here - she hadn't gone public yet! nobody knew her then!

Directly or more correct, short after this Baxter incidents I saw how links to news articles about this incident started to fail & disappeared from the NET like some gigantic cleaning operation.

And just 1 & ½ month after this cleaning operation the first reports came about the Mexican flu!

And we were even laughing here on ATS when we read that the EU would do a complete investigation into this and make a report.

And we then said; yeah right! - that would surely be a correct and uncorrupted report! because we understood how deperately they were trying to cover-up for this incident!

And laugh and behold! we were correct! the report from the EU is a farce and proven a falsarium compared to the information and truth that was (Surprisingly enough) written about these incidents in the MSM news reporting here in Europe short time before these news-snippets disappeared.

So my friend! you can believe whatever you want! it's your right! - but your analysis is going to be wrong since you're running around blindly without some important parts of the correct information regarding this incident!

I don't know if some of the older members here know and can help us on how we could do to get this information and news snippets to surface again? just to show you this!

Is it possible to search for it in some special way?

And prove this to you, so that you don't think that I and others here are lying to you now about this.

Because I think this information could be very valuable to you if you want to make a correct analysis of the Baxter incidents.


[edit on 21-11-2009 by Chevalerous]

reply to post by Chevalerous


Sorry if this has already been said.
I have done a little digging (still plenty original articles on the net!) and this was described as 'experimental virus material'. Is 'material' double speak for 'vaccine'? This is where the disagreement seems to lie.
The first link is vague, the second more or less states that the contaminated material was used to make a vaccine.
But maybe this is just splitting hairs anyway, as the material was proposed as a vaccine component, if it wasn't already a vaccine per se.
www.torontosun.com...
www.bloomberg.com...
The sole issue, as I see it, is whether this was a deliberate mistake.
I am still looking for credible reporting of the 72 kilos claim.
[edit on 21-11-2009 by unicorn1]



[edit on 21-11-2009 by unicorn1]

I think this is ONE of first articles in CZ press:
www.ceskenoviny.cz...
It clearly states that material was "test vaccine".
Here is PR article of CZ CDC:
www.mzcr.cz...
Again "test vaccine" statement.

BUT I clearly remember really first article from local newspaper that clearly stated that contaminated material was tested on ferrets just by chance. I can't find it now. It was in June/July when I first read J.B. story and I was looking for sources. What I can find today is something different than I read 4 month ago! Now it start to be really interesting. I hope I'll be able to find original versions of documents via archive.org or NewtonMedia (my friend is journalist and I'll use his account).
To be clear: I do not buy J.B.. She stink day by day more and more. But everything around this incident stink more and more. Also I think that vaccination in general is one of greatest achievements of humankind but same as with antibiotics we should use this powerful tools wisely.
I'm sorry for this chaotic and incomplete post but I need few more hours to complete it - there is much more manipulation - even here in Cz - then I expected.
EDIT: missing word "article"

[edit on 21-11-2009 by zeddissad]

Eco and Jedi.

The claim that it was not intended for human use comes from Christopher Bona.

BAXTERS SPOKESMAN!!!!

Christopher Bona, Baxter's director of global bioscience communications, said the liquid virus product was not a vaccine and was developed for testing purposes only. He deferred questions about the purpose of the testing to Avir Green Hills, but said the batch was to be used in animals and was never intended for use in humans.

And yes it was a human virus H3N2.

And yes ferrets are indeed the proffered model for human use.

If it was experimental, why was a useless unmarketable experiment being conducted in multiple countries simultaneously????? In such large amounts?????

And yes it was 72 kg, confirmed by the Austrian Minister of Health.
You can download the parliamentary response.

wakenews.net...

"It was a combination of just the process itself, (and) technical and human error in this procedure," Bona said. When asked to elaborate, he said to do so would give away proprietary information about Baxter's production process.

That's your man! that's a buety isn't it!!

www.thestar.com...

Stop defending these criminals! isn't considered collusion or something? You don't want to be implicated in genocide do you?

You haven't done any research. You've just taken word for word from your false idol. And Jedi is just tagging along.

Jane is showing she is closer to the truth after all. Give up the one source is Jane crap. That's absolute rubbish! As we can clearly see.

[edit on 21-11-2009 by squiz]

Just found this in the Washington post, although it was buried towards the end of the story:

The CDC is investigating a cluster of four cases of patients at the Duke University Medical Center in Durham, N.C., who were found to be infected with H1N1 virus that was resistant to the antiviral drug Tamiflu.

Link:
www.washingtonpost.com...


This is what happens when we over-use antivirals. Resistance develops. Same thing happens with antibiotics. Over-use of antibiotics promotes resistance....overuse of antivirals promotes resistance.

This is yet another reason why I have more faith in homeopathy when it comes to combatting epidemics.

Here is another really good article on how well homeopathy works in epidemics.

www.whale.to...


Edit to add:

Anyone who woud like to learn more of a hands-on approach of how to treat epidemics in a homeopathic manner might find this book useful, especially in the light of the new tamiflu resistance.

www.minimum.com...

I have not bought this book yet (although I think I might today), but I bought a homeoapthic first aid book by her a few years ago, and it was excellent. It was very user friendly, and I've used it many, many times with very good results. So, I'm sure her epidemic book will come in very handy, too.





[edit on 21-11-2009 by nikiano]

Originally posted by Chevalerous
SNIP
I think even Bloomberg-News wrote two articles which most accepted as proof to exactly what happened in that Czech facility when someone there thanfully tested a part of the 72 kg of vaccine material on the ferrets which were meant for vaccine production by sub-contractors to Baxter.

SNIP
[\quote]

Please try to find it! I'm pretty sure that this is original storyline from CZ local newspaper. I hope I have hard copy on some HDD - but I'm bit chaotic being master of hundreds HDDs ... And offcourse working inet link is better argument then personally stored file.