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New FDR Decode

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posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by tomk52
Further, I have EVERY CONFIDENCE that, over the course of the next few days or weeks, some competent engineer, who knows what he is talking about, will step forward and provide the very reasonable, completely trivial explanation.


Already have. The parameter was not used for the 1991 model 757. They are using the 1997 model frame (757-3 A2) when the plane is at best the late-1991 model (757-2).




posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 02:40 PM
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TF,


Originally posted by turbofan
[snip]


Should I be surprised that you snipped out all the parts that show you're faking all of this?

Nahhhh....

You said:

Originally posted by turbofan
This is where VSI comes into play. VSI does not tell you the altitude, but
it tells you the rate of change in feet/min. By looking at VSI, you can calculate
the amount of change in altitude based on the previous scan.



You said, precisely, that "by looking at the VSI. a pilot can calculate his change in altitude".

I replied that:


Originally posted by tomk52
No pilot calculates his altitude by performing a "running integration of the VSI" in his head.
You look at the altimeter. That's what it's there for.


To which, you reply:


Originally posted by turbofan
1. PA is pressure altitude it is DISPLAYED on a GAUGE.
2. VSI is rate of ascent/descent in FEET PER MIN.
3. It is also DISPLAYED on a gauge!


Wow. Three, count 'em, THREE, correct statements in a row. Probably a "personal best" for ya.

And the depth of aviation knowledge expressed: "That information is displayed on gages". Wow!! You sure do know of that air-ee-noot..., uh, air-ee-naww-ta..., uh, flying crap.!!" [/sarcasm]

Unfortunately, they are all irrelevant to the incorrect statement that you made, and that I called you on.

"Can you say 'misdirection', kids? How about 'diversion'?

I knew you could..."


Originally posted by turbofan
The STBY PA is the one that samples pitot, but that's not the device that
produces the FDR data. Got it?


And even with multiple prompts, you STILL don't get it.

NO, TF, the VSI guage does NOT get pitot pressure.

If you understood the working of a VSI gauge, you'd know that it has NO USE for the pitot pressure.

A VSI gauge gets TWO inputs:
1. the static pressure.
2. the static pressure thru a calibrated, restricting orifice.

The static pressure goes to the interior of an aneroid (or aneroid set). The restricted static pressure goes to the case of the VSI.

In this way, the VSI aneroids compare the instantaneous static pressure to the CHANGE in static pressure over a fixed, known delay (provided by the orifice). The result is an amount of expansion or contraction that is proportional to the RATE OF CHANGE of the static pressure. Which is proportional to the RATE OF CHANGE of altitude.

And the RATE OF CHANGE of altitude is equal to the vertical speed.

If you look at the diagram that you're so proud of, you'll see that there IS NO VERTICAL speed indicator. (That would say "VSI".) There IS an AIR speed indicator. (That is labelled "ASI".) An AIR speed indicator does need both static and pitot pressures in order to work.

A VSI needs ONLY static pressure. And that is ALL that is plumbed into it.

I didn't imagine that your knowledge of these instruments was THIS woeful. You'd do best to be hush for awhile...
___

Oh, a couple more things...

Schematics, like the one you quote, are "Logical Representations" of the systems that they describe. They are NOT to be taken literally.

For example, computers are electronic devices. You do not plumb pneumatics into computers, any more than you plumb your water lines into your home computer.

This is a LOGICAL REPRESENTATION. Not a literal one.

The static pressure is plumbed into a pressure transducer. The transducer changes (i.e., "transduces") the pressure signal into an electrical signal, and the ELECTRICAL signal is sent to the computer.

Now, you've got the manual. I've asked you before. Why don't you provide us with the manufacturer, make & model number of the pressure transducer(s) that provides the Altitude and vertical speed to the FDR. Then we can make some headway.

TomK



posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 02:45 PM
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Originally posted by tomk52
TF,


Originally posted by turbofan
[snip]


Should I be surprised that you snipped out all the parts that show you're faking all of this?

Nahhhh....



LMFAO!

THAT WAS A MODERATOR ACTION AND A WARNING FOR CALLING YOU
AN IDIOT!

LMAO


Sorry, I don't hide anything.

Don't try to debate me, "Mr. Doesn't have a clue about static system and admits it!"



You said:

Originally posted by turbofan
This is where VSI comes into play. VSI does not tell you the altitude, but
it tells you the rate of change in feet/min. By looking at VSI, you can calculate
the amount of change in altitude based on the previous scan.




You said, precisely, that "by looking at the VSI. a pilot can calculate his change in altitude".


Read it AGAIN!

It says by looking at VSI (in the FDR) you can calculate the change in
altitude based on the previous SCAN

SCAN

PREVIOUS SCAN

As in the PREVIOUS VALUE STORED IN THE FDR FILE!

Please, get lost. Don't try to wrap your head around this. You just can't
keep up as you're too basic in understanding.

[edit on 28-11-2009 by turbofan]



posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 03:01 PM
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reply to post by 911files
 


Thank you, 911.

I knew that there would be some trivial reason just like this that would appear.

What do you want to bet that the truthers simply reject your statement, with PRECISELY ZERO attempt to verify or disprove it? Simply provide lame allegories unrelated to the core issue?

Such as Robby's ludicrous interpretation of a Minimum Equipment List. I've seldom heard anything as ludicrous as his "In other words, if it's on the plane, its required equipment" comment.

He doesn't seem to realize that the very existence of an MEL proves his statement wrong. The MEL is what is required to fly. Everything that is on the plane, but is NOT on the MEL, is, by definition, NOT "required equipment".

A cockpit door sensor is EXACTLY the type of equipment that would not make the MEL. While a cargo bay door sensor would be on the MEL. Because one is irrelevant to safe flight and the other is critically related to safe flight.

TomK



posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 03:05 PM
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Originally posted by tomk52
NO, TF, the VSI guage does NOT get pitot pressure.


Take your finger and trace the pretty PINK like that goes to the
STBY VSI.

www.biggles-software.com...

Then tell me VSI doesn't sample the pitot! LMAO!


Gee, look at that AUX Pitot port connected directly to the STBY VSI!

Then go back to the post in which you are desperately trying to
understand and read what I said. It goes something like this:

"Even though VSI (STBY) samples the pitot port, the primary reference
is the static port in which it derives it's reading".

Once again, don't try to understand tech., it's not your forte.

And BEFORE you come back with the fact that STBY VSI does not
provide the FDR data...ummm...I've already stated that several times!

You got schooled on the "error' BS; you got schooled on the "absolute
pressure sensor"; you got schooled on the "VSI calculation using FDR scans" and now you're getting schooled on a basic colour coded diagram.



posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 03:08 PM
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Once again, don't try to state that Flight Deck Door was not a recorded
parameter.

IT shows up in the FDR file AND it's listed in the Boeing documentation
complete with pin out information into the DAU.

Have a nice day making excuses for the magical Hani!

FYI: we're already in contact with 757-200 mechanics to get details on
the door sensor specifically. Hang tight!



posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by turbofan

THAT WAS A MODERATOR ACTION AND A WARNING FOR CALLING YOU
AN IDIOT!

LMAO


Sorry, I don't hide anything.

Don't try to debate me, "Mr. Doesn't have a clue about static system and admits it!"


You said:

Originally posted by turbofan
This is where VSI comes into play. VSI does not tell you the altitude, but
it tells you the rate of change in feet/min. By looking at VSI, you can calculate
the amount of change in altitude based on the previous scan.




You said, precisely, that "by looking at the VSI. a pilot can calculate his change in altitude".


Read it AGAIN!

It says by looking at VSI (in the FDR) you can calculate the change in
altitude based on the previous SCAN

SCAN

PREVIOUS SCAN

As in the PREVIOUS VALUE STORED IN THE FDR FILE!

Please, get lost. Don't try to wrap your head around this. You just can't
keep up as you're too basic in understanding.

[edit on 28-11-2009 by turbofan]


Ahhh, slip in the "(in the FDR)". Maybe no one will notice, eh?



Care to try to take a stab at why it's far more accurate to calculate the Vertical Speed from the Altitude than it is to try to calculate the Altitude from the Vertical Speed (as you are suggesting)?



Still think that a VSI requires a pitot pressure port, genius??



Figured out how a VSI works yet?



Here. Let me help.


PRINCIPLE OF OPERATION Although the vertical speed indicator operates solely from static pressure, it is a differential pressure instrument. It contains a diaphragm with connecting linkage and gearing to the indicator pointer inside an airtight case. The inside of the diaphragm is connected directly to the static line of the pitot-static system.

The area outside the diaphragm, which is inside the instrument case, is also connected to the static line, but through a restricted orifice (calibrated leak). Both the diaphragm and the case receive air from the static line at existing atmospheric pressure.


Tell me again how a VSI "needs the pitot pressure".



Can you read & understand the difference between the letters "VSI" & "ASI", yet?



Have you figured out yet that there IS NO VSI shown on that diagram that you were so, soooo proud of?



Have you figured out yet the difference between "a reading" and "the error in a reading"?



Have you figured out yet the difference between "a value" and "the change in that value"??



C'mon, TF. Give me a few more "laughing heads". It's just too, too precious for words.



TomK

PS. Just for good measure:



posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 03:46 PM
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When dealing with the hopeless evasions of Rob Balsamo & crew, remember this sage advice given in earlier years of the 9/11 "Truth" Movement:




posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 03:56 PM
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Originally posted by turbofan

Originally posted by tomk52
NO, TF, the VSI guage does NOT get pitot pressure.


Take your finger and trace the pretty PINK like that goes to the
STBY VSI.

www.biggles-software.com...

Then tell me VSI doesn't sample the pitot! LMAO!


Gee, look at that AUX Pitot port connected directly to the STBY VSI!

Then go back to the post in which you are desperately trying to
understand and read what I said. It goes something like this:

"Even though VSI (STBY) samples the pitot port, the primary reference
is the static port in which it derives it's reading".

Once again, don't try to understand tech., it's not your forte.

And BEFORE you come back with the fact that STBY VSI does not
provide the FDR data...ummm...I've already stated that several times!

You got schooled on the "error' BS; you got schooled on the "absolute
pressure sensor"; you got schooled on the "VSI calculation using FDR scans" and now you're getting schooled on a basic colour coded diagram.



LMAO...

HEY McFly!! Hello! McFLY!

FOR THE FIFTH TIME...!!! (at least)

Take your own finger, follow that line. Then READ CAREFULLY!!!

It says "STBY ASI". It does NOT say "STBY VSI".

ASI = AIR Speed Indicator.
VSI = VERTICAL Speed Indicator.

How incapable are you at reading, listening, thinking. I've attempted to spoon feed this trivially simple concept to you about 7 ways to Sunday, McFly. Oops, TF.

I don't give a rats butt even if your diagram DID say that the pitot port plumbed into the VSI. (Which it does NOT say.) If it did say that, then the DIAGRAM would be wrong.

This is the difference between UNDERSTANDING something and PARROTING something.

You do not understand how a VSI works.

Neither can you competently reading a diagram.

"ASI" is NOT the same as "VSI". (Say it 50 times slowly...)

Then try to read your diagram again...



(A few more. Just for you. Because I think so, uh, so, uh, "highly"? of you...? Nah. Just because...)

TomK

PS. Get back to me once you've figured out the difference between "A" and "V".
Maybe a couple of old Muppet shows will do the trick.



posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 04:02 PM
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HEY ROBBY,

Do you want to help out your BFF, here.

Perhaps you could explain to him the difference between an ASI and a VSI.

Perhaps you could explain to him that the VSI does NOT need a pitot line plumbed into it.

Perhaps you could explain to him that EVERYTHING that I've told him about how a VSI works is correct.

After all, TF came to YOUR aide, made a bit of an idiot of himself, but took the heat off of you.

The least that you could do is to return the favor.

And say something equally stupid.

Oh, I don't know... perhaps something as stupid as "If it's on the plane, then it's required equipment."

Perhaps you could use those AirPhones as an example of "required equipment".

LMAO.

TomK



posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 04:10 PM
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Originally posted by tomk52

Ahhh, slip in the "(in the FDR)". Maybe no one will notice, eh?


It's not a 'slip in' it's a clarification for basic people like you.

If you paid the slightest bit of attention for the last 5 pages, you would
have read the discussion between John Farmer and myself talking about
getting Vertical Speed from the FDR to confirm Pressure Altitude.

It's NOT about accuracy, it's about confirming PA. YOu don't have to tell
me that the velocity changes throughout that one second scan. It's the
final value we need to make the calculation. Understand?

John Farmer was able to keep up with this information. Maybe he's just
a little bit smarter than you?

Sorry for the error on STBY VSI...; it makes no difference to this discussion
as the ADC supplies the FDR info that we're looking at.

I;ve admitted my error. YOu have about 5 or so to concede (and BIG
ones at that).




posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 04:22 PM
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HEY McFLY...!!!

Where did ya go??

Have you read your own diagram, and had that "Oh SH!T" moment...?

As Mr Rodgers would say, "I knew you would".

LMFAO.

And now you can't BEAR to come back & play?


Originally posted by turbofan
Take your finger and trace the pretty PINK like that goes to the
STBY VSI.

www.biggles-software.com...

Then tell me VSI doesn't sample the pitot! LMAO!


Gee, look at that AUX Pitot port connected directly to the STBY VSI!


Have you read your own diagram yet? Careful enough to see that you've been making a complete & utter FOOL of yourself for the last several days??

LMFAO.


Originally posted by turbofan
Once again, don't try to understand tech., it's not your forte.


The irony... It BURNS!!


Originally posted by turbofan
You got schooled on the "error' BS; you got schooled on the "absolute pressure sensor"; you got schooled on the "VSI calculation using FDR scans" and now you're getting schooled on a basic colour coded diagram.


Complete with the oh-so-cute little victory dance.

After making a complete & utter fool of himself.

Ain't he PRECIOUS...!

C'mon, McFly. Tell me again how you schooled me on reading diagrams.
Tell me again how VSIs need pitot pressure in order to work.

C'mon, TF. It's just soooo precious.



TomK

PS. So, remind me again. How many (weeks? months?) do we continue to remind you, day after day after day, that you don't understand how fundamental avionic instruments work?

How many (weeks? months?) do we remind you, day after day after day, that you cannot read your own schematic diagrams?

How many (weeks? months?) do we remind you that you apparently cannot distinguish "A" from "V"?

I think it was set at about, what, a year(?) with your INCORRECT "Mach Crit" bull droppings, wasn't it?

Sure. THAT's the ticket. I think about a year ought to do it.

LMAO.



posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 04:33 PM
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Originally posted by tomk52
HEY McFLY...!!!

Where did ya go??

Have you read your own diagram, and had that "Oh SH!T" moment...?

As Mr Rodgers would say, "I knew you would".

LMFAO.

And now you can't BEAR to come back & play?


Originally posted by turbofan
Take your finger and trace the pretty PINK like that goes to the
STBY VSI.

www.biggles-software.com...

Then tell me VSI doesn't sample the pitot! LMAO!


Gee, look at that AUX Pitot port connected directly to the STBY VSI!


Have you read your own diagram yet? Careful enough to see that you've been making a complete & utter FOOL of yourself for the last several days??

LMFAO.


Originally posted by turbofan
Once again, don't try to understand tech., it's not your forte.


The irony... It BURNS!!


Originally posted by turbofan
You got schooled on the "error' BS; you got schooled on the "absolute pressure sensor"; you got schooled on the "VSI calculation using FDR scans" and now you're getting schooled on a basic colour coded diagram.


Complete with the oh-so-cute little victory dance.

After making a complete & utter fool of himself.

Ain't he PRECIOUS...!

C'mon, McFly. Tell me again how you schooled me on reading diagrams.
Tell me again how VSIs need pitot pressure in order to work.

C'mon, TF. It's just soooo precious.



TomK

PS. So, remind me again. How many (weeks? months?) do we continue to remind you, day after day after day, that you don't understand how fundamental avionic instruments work?

How many (weeks? months?) do we remind you, day after day after day, that you cannot read your own schematic diagrams?

How many (weeks? months?) do we remind you that you apparently cannot distinguish "A" from "V"?

I think it was set at about, what, a year(?) with your INCORRECT "Mach Crit" bull droppings, wasn't it?

Sure. THAT's the ticket. I think about a year ought to do it.

LMAO.


Have another drink Tom, I don't think you're belligerent enough yet.



[edit on 28-11-2009 by R_Mackey]



posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 04:45 PM
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Originally posted by turbofan
John Farmer was able to keep up with this information. Maybe he's just
a little bit smarter than you?


Hey, don't drag me into this. I don't have a clue what you guys are talking about with this instrument and freely admit it. My discussion(s) are limited to the resultant data and what it is doing relative to other resultant data, not the instrument measuring it.

Tomk is much smarter than me at this stuff



posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by turbofan
Sorry for the error on STBY VSI...; it makes no difference ...


LMFAO...

OF COURSE it makes a difference.

Let me provide an analogy.

For a week now, you've been INSISTING that the radio drives the wheels of a car. And you've got the diagram to prove it.

I've been telling you that, "No, it's not the radio. It's the engine."

You've been calling me ignorant, a fake & a poser because I think (LOL) that "the engine pushes the car". When you've got a diagram right in front of you that PROVES that it's really the radio that does it".

I've explained to you, REPEATEDLY, the functions & inner workings of a radio & an engine.

And you STILL insisted, after multiple postings, that I was a fool & an idiot, because I thought that the engine pushed the car.

Then you FINALLY took a close look at your diagram, and found that the arrow from the word "radio" was NOT pointing under the hood, and that the arrow from the word "engine" was.

And now you think that "it makes no difference" that you thought that the radio pushed the car.

Sorry, TF.

The problem is NOT "reading comprehension". (Well that is A problem. It's just not the important problem.)

The important problem is that you don't UNDERSTAND the difference between a radio & an engine. Not that you can't read your silly schematic. If you DID understand, then the very first post that I wrote to you on this issue would have prompted the realization that "Hey, that has to be right."

The important problem is that you're faking it. You're understanding of avionics, and aerodynamics, is so completely flawed, that your comments & opinions are irrelevant.

The good news is that, with this whole "VSI needs pitot pressure" farce, you've just proved that fact to everyone.


Originally posted by turbofan
to this discussion as the ADC supplies the FDR info that we're looking at.


Wrong. The ADC crunches numbers. That is all that it does.

Sensors provide the ADC the info (such as airspeed, PA, Vertical speed, etc.) that you are discussing.


Originally posted by turbofan
I;ve admitted my error. YOu have about 5 or so to concede (and BIG ones at that).



Says the laughing buffoon who thinks that the radio pushes the car....



TomK

[edit on 28-11-2009 by tomk52]



posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by R_Mackey

Have another drink Tom, I don't think you're belligerent enough yet.


No more drinks for you, Rob. We don't want to see you fall over again trying to saddle your chickens.




posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 05:16 PM
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Please stop the personal sniping.

Thank you.




posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 05:19 PM
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Originally posted by R_Mackey
Have another drink Tom, I don't think you're belligerent enough yet.

[edit on 28-11-2009 by R_Mackey]


Ya know, Robby,

It might surprise you to learn that I don't take any pleasure in this.

Well, OK. I'm human. Just a bit. You & TF are such unremitting [snip], after all. And this is exactly the sort of pompous, adolescent, churlish abuse that you [snip] throw at people with unremitting glee.

So I can bear to return to you a sample of your own misbehavior. Even tho I'm more than a little embarrassed to be doing it.

If it were anyone but you [snip] children, I'd drop it immediately.

[snip]

Insecure as the day is long.
When possessed of a tiny amount of power, banning everyone who disagrees.
Posing under other people's name.
Petty & vindictive.
And unremittingly wrong on point, after point, after point.

And still strutting after all these years.

It boggles the mind.


TomK

PS. Figured out the difference between Mach Crit & Drag Divergence yet, Rob?

 


Removed three personal attacks

[edit on 28/11/09 by masqua]



posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 05:27 PM
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Originally posted by jthomas
When dealing with the hopeless evasions of Rob Balsamo & crew, remember this sage advice given in earlier years of the 9/11 "Truth" Movement:



JT,

I recognize everyone except the guy with the short beard. He'd be...?

"Oh could it be twue...?"

Tom



posted on Nov, 28 2009 @ 06:07 PM
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reply to post by tomk52
 


No , sorry TomK...You're wrong.

The only error I made was mistaking the "A" for a "V" in the diagram.

You can blame my laptop's screen resolution, or my eye sight...perhaps
you could go as far as saying, I'm dyslexic!

One thing you can't say is that I haven't schooled you on the function of
the VSI pages, and pages ago.

I'll let you scroll back and look for the post when I state:

"Even though VSI samples the pitot port (which was my visual error. see above), the rate of change in altitude is determined by the ADC via the
static port."

I don't know we're you're going with this, other than I mixed up a letter.
It makes no difference as I've already described how the VSI works.

Go ahead and find my post...I dare you.

Until then, you can suck on this with a hit of salt:

Errors by TomK in this thread caught by Turbofan

- "Delay of PA vs. RAd Alt. " in frame structure. Tom thought it was
almost one second, it turns out it's a few milliseconds.

- Thinking PA was measured by an aneroid type altimeter. In fact,
it's measure by an air data computer using an electric sensor.

- Thinking "absolute pressure sensor" was indicating an absolute value/reading of PA, when in fact it was clear I was talking about
the "absolute pressure sensor".

- Thinking I "snipped my post" when in fact it was a moderator action
for calling him an idiot.

There are a few more, I'll write more later.


of



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