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Death gets second chance after lethal injection botched

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posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 09:28 AM
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Originally posted by halfmanhalfamazing

Do you read entire threads? You do realise that this thread is 12 pages long? Some threads are over 50pages long... are you telling me you read all of those pages?


I actually make a point to read the entire thread so that I don't ask someone the same question that someone else has already asked and it has been explained, or so that I don't look foolish by raising points that have already been raised and dealt with.


I am truly sorry to hear about this, It pains me that these things happen to people who do not deserve it.


I would say thank you but that would sound oddly self-serving. If my sister were reading this she would thank you for your concern.



I am entitled to my own opinion, you are also entitled to your own opinion, if we difffer... so be it. Neither can be right or wrong as it is a personal view on life!


I would have to say you are the first person to have said something like that in this thread. Most of the others have just been hellbent on trying to paint me as a monster and that I don't care about the victims feelings - that I will not tolerate, particularly when I have said nothing of the sort.

I respect your opinion and I thank you for it..




posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 09:51 AM
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Originally posted by Kryties
reply to post by halfmanhalfamazing
 


/sigh

Another example of someone not reading the entire thread. If you had you would realise that I had a 13 year old sister who was raped and I spent the next 5 years helping her through it. No, she was not brutally murdered at the same time but the crime perpetrated on her was still awful to say the least. Neither my sister nor myself EVER had the thought that we wished him dead. In fact I specifically recall her saying once that she is glad she knows he will spend the rest of his life rotting in a jail cell (pretty much her exact words).

So yes, I have known someone close to me who's had a terrible crime perpetrated on them and YES I do believe that qualifies me to have an opinion - much more than those in here who haven't experienced it first-hand.


But that's YOUR opinion and YOUR belief system.

Not all of us think like you. In fact, I believe most of us do not think like you.

It doesn't need to be my sister (raped) to know that if I got my hands on one of these monsters, I'd rip their bowls out of their belly, searching for the innocence they've taken from another.

That is how the ball rolls, friend. Some of us feel one way, while others feel differently.

But for you to say that any of us are WRONG for feeling a certain way, only detracts from your own views. Why? How can any of us take you seriously if you will not return the favor?



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 10:02 AM
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reply to post by ninecrimes
 


I have claimed people are being hypocritical for claiming to be morally against torture and murder and yet advocating that same act be committed on the criminal.

I have never claimed in this thread that my opinion is the only one that counts, but as several people have pointed out in this thread - someone who has had first-hand experience is more qualified to see it from the victims perspective. I was simply agreeing with that.

I have, however, sunk my teeth into those that would try to paint me as a monster with no humanity and that I don't care about the victims feelings. I will not tolerate that one iota.

[edit on 21/9/2009 by Kryties]



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 11:14 AM
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reply to post by Kryties
 


Kryties, here's the rub:

IF you had a daughter who was raped and murdered by a monster like this, you wouldn't be on your high horse sounding like an a$$ right now trying to belittle everyone who doesn't agree with you. You would be screaming for the killer to be put to death by the most painful means possible.

And don't try to tell me you have kids and would feel feel the same way you do now, because that would be a bald faced lie.



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 11:20 AM
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reply to post by sos37
 


LOL, and if you had have even read this page, let alone the entire thread, you would know I have a sister who was raped - that's pretty much the same thing as having a daughter who was raped wouldn't you say? No, she wasn't murdered but she still suffered a shocking and terrible ordeal the details of which I will not say here as I don't think my sister will appreciate it.

Got your foot in your mouth now? Shove it in real hard.



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 11:27 AM
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Maybe I'm wrong, but I recall hearing or reading somewhere that "legally" a failed application of an execution equated to "cruel and unusual punishment" and pardoned the convicted from a second attempt of execution. Of course I may have just made that up in my mind


I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it though. I hope they get it right this time around.

Just my 2-cents



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 11:28 AM
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reply to post by Aggie Man
 


To tell you the truth, I have heard that somewhere too. It's on the tip of my tongue but I just can't put a name/date/place to it.



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 11:31 AM
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Originally posted by Kryties
reply to post by orangetom1999
 


You can speak all you want of the death penalty being a deterrent, tell that to the INNOCENT people that were wrongfully convicted, slaughtered, then found to be innocent after the fact. What do YOU say to their families (and don't say that's not your problem - YOU voted the death penalty to stay it BECOMES your problem) huh? What exactly do you tell the family of that innocent slaughtered man or woman?

I can imagine your tail would be firmly implanted between your legs for starters....


Kryties,

I think you are a bit slow here. No problem. What you post makes good initial logic and reason until you ask.....so what do you tell the people who's relatives were murdered by these convicted criminals??

I never stated that the system was perfect. But nonetheless...what do you say to those who have families who have been the subjects of crime and criminals.

What you post initially makes good logic and reason...but in the whole..to thinking peoples..it doesnt make good nonsense.

Your logic and reason would throw the baby out with the bath water to put ointment on your passions...while claiming logic and reason. I call this occult..hidden ..concealed.

"I shall ever conceal and never reveal"

It is not going to put ointment on my passions or logic and reason. If you want to think that way in Oz ..no problem with me. It just doesnt wash here in the USA.

What do you tell a whole social structure...if you as a government cannot deter or even bring justice to those bent on such barbarity...such baseness. You would change the whole structure for a handful. Good logic and reason.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
I think you are a bit slow here.


Slow? That's a new insult in this thread
I'll give you points for creativity.



No problem. What you post makes good initial logic and reason until you ask.....so what do you tell the people who's relatives were murdered by these convicted criminals??


That the criminal has been segregated from the public and will not be allowed his freedoms ever again? Sounds pretty reasonable to me.


I never stated that the system was perfect. But nonetheless...what do you say to those who have families who have been the subjects of crime and criminals.


I dunno, I'll go ask my sister - the one who was raped when she was 13. The incident that I keep repeating to people yet they ignore it because they would prefer to think of me as a monster.


What you post initially makes good logic and reason...but in the whole..to thinking peoples..it doesnt make good nonsense.


Those "thinking peoples" really haven't thought things through properly I would say.


Your logic and reason would throw the baby out with the bath water to put ointment on your passions...while claiming logic and reason. I call this occult..hidden ..concealed.

"I shall ever conceal and never reveal"


This actually doesn't make any sense to me sorry. Just being honest.


It is not going to put ointment on my passions or logic and reason. If you want to think that way in Oz ..no problem with me. It just doesnt wash here in the USA.


Some of the people who have supported my opinion in this thread are from the USA - go check yourself if you don't believe me. Therefore your claim that "it doesn't wash in the USA" is false.


What do you tell a whole social structure...if you as a government cannot deter or even bring justice to those bent on such barbarity...such baseness. You would change the whole structure for a handful. Good logic and reason.


I dunno, why don't you go ask your government? You have the death penalty in many states there yet rape and murder still occurs in the same frequency as those states that don't have the death penalty. Where is the deterrent? I am not seeing it.



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by RenDMC
They shouldn't inject him, they should take this piece of scum. Tie him up and burn the sick pervert ALIVE. Then put the fire out. Drag his sorry ass through to a hospital revive him and repeat. Now I'd pay just to SEE him suffer like that, let alone get taxed. [\quote]


I wonder if Ghandi or really, anyone could get through to a person like you, just to explain to you that you are no better and no less of a monster with opinions and ideas of treating another person that way.

[edit on 21-9-2009 by BaronVonGodzilla]



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 01:08 PM
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Just my twopenneth, but i dont come from a country where we are desensetised to the death penalty and i feel it is much more useful to society to study rapists and killers to learn how we can prevent these crimes rather than stooping to the inhumane act of killing (by proxy if you dont pull the switch yourself).

I say lets keep the sick minded people locked up and take that unique opportunity to study them in depth.



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 01:52 PM
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Kryties,

This..


Slow? That's a new insult in this thread
I'll give you points for creativity


is not an insult...it is an observation from this end. Sorry you think it so.


That the criminal has been segregated from the public and will not be allowed his freedoms ever again? Sounds pretty reasonable to me.


Reasonable yes...justice no. Do not mix or confuse reason and logic with justice. As I said..it looks good on paper and puts ointment on peoples bruises/passions. It just isnt justice. It also isnt the law here. This is why such reason and logic are bogus.

I dont think most of the readers out here are supposed to be able to reason or think to this extent. They are supposed to stop where your passions begin. I Observed that you were slow here. What is a bit sad...is that some of the readers ..especially here stateside dont seem to see this as well.


I dunno, I'll go ask my sister - the one who was raped when she was 13. The incident that I keep repeating to people yet they ignore it because they would prefer to think of me as a monster.


While I dont approve of rape...your sister was not killed or murdered here. This is not the same as what happened in Ohio.
It is good that you and your sister came to the conclusions you did. I am glad for you. But nonetheless it is not the same as what happened in Ohio. I dont believe there is a penalty of death for rape is there??


Those "thinking peoples" really haven't thought things through properly I would say.


I realize you would think thus. The problem is that most Americans dont think this way and neither did the jury or the courts in Ohio.

Politicians like issues like this ..particularly in high electorical vote states where people often feel secure enough to be deluded by such a politician and passions. This happened years ago in the state of Massachussets by a politician with "passions." His name was Michael Dukakis. A life convicted felon without the possibility of parole was let go under a new feel good law giving them weekend paroles without supervision. This felon, Willie Horton, went out and never returned. While out he committed robery and rape.
This ended any election chances for Michael Dukakis becoming President of the United States.


This actually doesn't make any sense to me sorry. Just being honest.


No problem here. I somewhat suspected it might not make any sense when I posted it. It has to do with Gnostic Occult Religions and their quest for logic and reason while secretly ceding to their passions.


Some of the people who have supported my opinion in this thread are from the USA - go check yourself if you don't believe me. Therefore your claim that "it doesn't wash in the USA" is false.


There may be people here in the USA who dont believe in such but the majority for now do believe in it. Another 20 years of public schooling financed by politicians looking for election/re election issues and this may change. But for now ..and especially in Ohio this is not the case.
People here are begining to look closely at the very nature of politics and politicians in a manner they were never want to do previous. They are also learning to look closely at the media shilling for these politicians as well. I would that in process of time ...they learn to look closely at public education financed by these same politicians as an extension of this awakening process.

Once again ...your beliefs do not make America...into Oz...and especially the State and people of Ohio.


I dunno, why don't you go ask your government? You have the death penalty in many states there yet rape and murder still occurs in the same frequency as those states that don't have the death penalty. Where is the deterrent? I am not seeing it.


You are going to find that this type of thing happens most often in cities and metropolitan areas with high population levels. The "Civilized " areas.
Causing me to ask what exactly is "Civilized??" The very nature of humans.
As for me ..I greatly dislike big cities...where much of this fingerprint occurs.

These same cities/population centers are also where the most votes occur to put and maintain people in public offices.

None of these concepts do you or posters on the death penalty bring up. Populations are also increasing rapidly in some of these cities...bringing with it more crime of all types.

I also dont see long prision sentances detering crime..if this is one of your points..neither are they justice..not only for those involved but those who bear the cost. For these crimes are committed not only against the immediate victims and their families but against all the peoples as well.

What you are debating is not justice. It is good logic and reason to those who do not see the justice side. However what you debate is most definitely politic. Most on sites like this also know what is politic and its historical track record.
Politic will sell the very souls of the public for votes and power. This is why the death penalty is often a political issue. They have managed to deceive the folks in Oz...as they have done with many political issues..without making the public safer. It is the same in the UK with their politicians.
IN both of these countries just like here...politics pays for and finances public education.

We are not Englishmen or Australians here.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 02:01 PM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
They have managed to deceive the folks in Oz...as they have done with many political issues..without making the public safer. It is the same in the UK with their politicians.
IN both of these countries just like here...politics pays for and finances public education.



Ok, I had to laugh at this point. That's quite a claim to make, that the entire population of Australia has been deceived by politicians into thinking the death penalty is wrong. Hate to tell you mate, but WE THE PEOPLE asked that the government abolish the death penalty, of our own accord, and our government listened.

We have our fair share of murderers over here by the way, and nobody ever calls for the death penalty to be re-established. Not the media, not the politicians, not we the people.

Much the same happened in the UK I believe.















[edit on 21/9/2009 by Kryties]



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 02:29 PM
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Originally posted by Kryties

Originally posted by orangetom1999
They have managed to deceive the folks in Oz...as they have done with many political issues..without making the public safer. It is the same in the UK with their politicians.
IN both of these countries just like here...politics pays for and finances public education.



Ok, I had to laugh at this point. That's quite a claim to make, that the entire population of Australia has been deceived by politicians into thinking the death penalty is wrong. Hate to tell you mate, but WE THE PEOPLE asked that the government abolish the death penalty, of our own accord, and our government listened.

We have our fair share of murderers over here by the way, and nobody ever calls for the death penalty to be re-established. Not the media, not the politicians, not we the people.

Much the same happened in the UK I believe.


Kryties,

No problem once again here. Public education grooms the next generation of voters. This has happened more rapidly in the UK and down under. Someone out here is trying to make us into Englishmen or Continentals. We are not interested.

I will never believe that government can make me safe from anything..particularly from government.

Notice here that it matters not to me what you do down in Australia. I have no interest in visiting or working there.
When that fellow..the animal guy ...Irwin...when I found out that he came to the USA for surgery rather than have it down down under.. ..that told me enough...that something was not quite right down there. But that is your buisness...not mine. I will however make note of it. I do not seek to change your form of government.

Since then I have been in contact with numerous folks in the UK on different boards. Many of them are fed up with what their government is doing to them. They just find great difficulty voicing their views on a rigged media. Outlets like this are one of the few places we hear about it. We actually hear very little through the major media here about conditions there. or in the UK. I do not think this is accidental.
I also hear about it from fellow Ham Radio operators in these countries...and others as well.

You are correct here about this..


We have our fair share of murderers over here by the way, and nobody ever calls for the death penalty to be re-established. Not the media, not the politicians, not we the people.

Much the same happened in the UK I believe.


Not the media, not the politicians, not we the people.

I account this to public education from early years...paid for and financed by a body politic. To continue the education/programming...the media is in on it. It is obvious this is the case here in the USA. Continued education/programming by the media. There is a relationship in these three things you itemize here.

Within public education , the media, and the body politic ..for some time now I have been looking into a phenomonon I call "Guilt Conditioning" or "Guilt Politics." This too is used in getting votes.

This issue, the death penalty, is but a small part of this program. Guilt programming does not work with me when I spot it being used. It is to emotional for my tastes. I am not interested in becoming a drama queen for the puropses of the body politic.

Thanks,
Orangetom

















[edit on 21/9/2009 by Kryties]



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 02:41 PM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999

Notice here that it matters not to me what you do down in Australia. I have no interest in visiting or working there.
When that fellow..the animal guy ...Irwin...when I found out that he came to the USA for surgery rather than have it down down under.. ..that told me enough...that something was not quite right down there. But that is your buisness...not mine. I will however make note of it. I do not seek to change your form of government.

Since then I have been in contact with numerous folks in the UK on different boards. Many of them are fed up with what their government is doing to them. They just find great difficulty voicing their views on a rigged media. Outlets like this are one of the few places we hear about it. We actually hear very little through the major media here about conditions there. or in the UK. I do not think this is accidental.
I also hear about it from fellow Ham Radio operators in these countries...and others as well.


LOL How arrogant are you? Thinking that the USA is so bloody high and mighty compared to countries you admittedly know diddly squat about, except what you hear on Ham Radio and see on cable TV. That's the most arrogantly ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

I'm not going to bother answering the rest of your arrogant post.

And his name was Steve Irwin by the way.




[edit on 21/9/2009 by Kryties]



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 03:12 PM
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reply to post by ts117
 



On September 29, 1981
, Texas Public Safety Officer David Rucker was shot and killed along a stretch of highway a few miles north of Brownsville, Texas. Rucker's body was discovered by a passer-by, lying beside his patrol car. He had been shot in the head.

Around the same time, Los Fresnos Police Officer Carrisalez observed a speeding vehicle traveling on the same road away from where Rucker's body had been found. Carrisalez and his partner turned on the patrol car's flashing red lights and pursued the vehicle, which pulled over. Carrisalez took a flashlight and walked toward the car. The driver of the vehicle opened his door and exchanged words with Carrisalez before firing at least one shot at Carrisalez' chest. He died nine days later.

Leonel Torres Herrera was arrested a few days later and was charged with the capital murder of both Carrisalez and Rucker. In January 1982, Herrera was tried and found guilty of the capital murder of Carrisalez, for which he was sentenced to death. In his capital murder trial, Carrisalez' partner identified Herrera as the person who shot Carrisalez.

Later that year, Herrera pleaded guilty to the murder of Rucker.
ALTHOUGH THEY COULD NOT ADMIT IT, THIS WAS THE CLINCHER FOR THE COURTS.

NOW I’M DUBIOUS OF THIS EVIDENCE. IT SOUNDS LIKE A PLANT TO ME.


Other evidence showed that Herrera's Social Security card had been found alongside Rucker's patrol car on the night he was killed. Splatters of blood on the car identified by Carrisalez' partner as the vehicle involved in the shootings were found to be type A blood, the same as Rucker's.

SOMETIMES COPS GO OVERBOARD AND OVERDO IT.


[In 1985]
Herrera filed a petition for writ of habeas corpus in federal court, claiming that new evidence demonstrated he was actually innocent of the murder of Carrisalez. Herrera included two affidavits with his petition from Hector Villarreal, an attorney who had represented Herrera's brother, Raul Herrera, Sr., and Juan Franco Palacious, Raul Herrera's former cellmate. Both affidavits claimed that Raul Herrera, who was murdered in 1984, had told them that he had killed Rucker and Carrisalez.

Leonel Herrera claimed that the new evidence showed that he was actually innocent, and that executing an innocent person would constitute cruel and unusual punishment in violation of the Eighth Amendment.

Two questions were presented for the Supreme Court's review:

1) Whether the Eighth and Fourteenth Amendments permit a state to execute an individual who is innocent of the crime for which he or she was convicted and sentenced to death?

2) What post-conviction procedures are necessary to protect against the execution of an innocent person?

1994.
Chief Justice William Rehnquist’s majority opinion held that a claim of actual innocence based on newly discovered evidence did not state a ground for federal habeas relief.

Herrera claimed that because the new evidence demonstrated his innocence, his execution would violate the Eighth Amendment’s ban on cruel and unusual punishment which applied to the states through the Fourteenth Amendment.

Rehnquist’s opinion noted that “few rulings would be more disruptive of our federal system than to provide for federal habeas review of freestanding claims of actual innocence.”

THE KEY WORD HERE IS “FREESTANDING” CLAIMS.
Which means in this case the LACK of probative, credible evidence.

Rehnquist’s opinion, although not explicitly holding that the Eighth Amendment does not prohibit executing an innocent person, emphasized that Herrera was not raising a constitutional violation.

Rehnquist’s opinion also held that Texas courts’ refusal to even consider Herrera’s newly discovered evidence did not violate due process and suggested that Herrera file a clemency petition with the Texas Board of Pardon and Paroles. THAT'S LIKE WRITING TO A DEAD LETTER BOX.

Justice Harry Blackmun, dissenting and was joined by Justices Stevens and Souter. Blackmun believed that "nothing could be more contrary to contemporary standards of decency or more shocking to the conscience than to execute a person who is actually innocent."

Blackmun would have remanded the case to the district court for a determination as to whether a hearing should be held and to resolve the merits of Herrera's claim of actual innocence.

Chastising the majority for its circumspection, Blackmun wrote, "We really are being asked to decide whether the Constitution forbids the execution of a person who has been validly convicted and sentenced, but who, nonetheless, can prove his innocence with newly discovered evidence," and he took note of "the State of Texas' astonishing protestation to the contrary."

NOTHING BAD IN TEXAS SURPRISES ME.


Justice Sandra Day O'Connor wrote an opinion concurring with Chief Justice Rehnquist’s majority opinion. O'Connor concluded by asserting that the majority did not hold that the Constitution permits the execution of an actually innocent person.

THAT’S GOOD TO KNOW.


Herrera was executed four months after the ruling. In his final statement he said: "I am innocent, innocent, innocent. . . . I am an innocent man, and something very wrong is taking place tonight."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herrera_v._Collins

[My opinions are in caps.]

[edit on 9/21/2009 by donwhite]



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 05:04 PM
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Originally posted by Kryties
reply to post by silo13
 


Deny Emotion, Apply Logic.

Emotional blackmail will not change my opinion of this.


I would have to say that we should never deny emotion. Emotion is what makes us human. Logic applied without emotion leads to robots, super soldiers, and a hive mind with very few kings and queens at the top exploiting the worker bees.

I believe in the death penalty, but not because its the ultimate punishment to hand down to murderer. I see it as a fine. He chose to deny life to another human being and the fine for that is the death penalty. How much it costs 'The State' to imprison him for life against the cost of execution should have no bearing on it.



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 05:17 PM
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Originally posted by Kryties
reply to post by ts117
 


OK, so how does all of that justify the use of the Death Penalty on innocent people? How would YOU explain, to the family of an innocent man or woman slaughtered by their government, why he or she was put to death? Why someone didn't realise that the system was about to execute an innocent person?

"Woops, sorry about that - we get it right MOST of the time" just doesn't cut it with me by the way.


[edit on 21/9/2009 by Kryties]


I would be more concerned about explaining to the thousands of surviving family and friends of the murder victims, that the guilty killers were not going to pay for their crimes with their lives, but instead sit on their arses, with three squares a day, a roof over their heads, and the intellectual freedom to explore their sick and twisted psyche ad nauseum.

Thats the much bigger crime here.



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 05:20 PM
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Originally posted by Kryties
reply to post by sos37
 


LOL, and if you had have even read this page, let alone the entire thread, you would know I have a sister who was raped - that's pretty much the same thing as having a daughter who was raped wouldn't you say? No, she wasn't murdered but she still suffered a shocking and terrible ordeal the details of which I will not say here as I don't think my sister will appreciate it.

Got your foot in your mouth now? Shove it in real hard.


Dude, you are as ignorant as you are foolish. A sister??? A sister is NOWHERE in the same ballpark as a daughter. The love you feel for a daughter and a sister is so different that it cannot be described. And you even admitted that your sister wasn't killed so how would you even know that your feelings wouldn't change? Oh, right. You're most likely some punk kid that thinks they know everything there is to know about everything.

You just shot your own credibility all to hell with that response. Do yourself a favor - stay in school and pay attention to what the teachers have to say.



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 07:50 PM
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reply to post by Kryties
 


Hey you are entitled to your opinion as to why I take the length of time I do to respond. I could answer honestly and tell you I work a 12 hour swing shift and have a family (wife and son), but you would think I was trying to avoid the subject. So no matter, think what you will. My time here is a bit limited at times.


Regardless of why you tried to point out that indiscretion of the other poster you failed in the attempt. It showed exactly your true “logic” for this thread and just how “logical” you are. The guy that murdered and raped a 14 year old girl harmed a child he deserves a punishment one that is just as harsh. She on the other hand did nothing to deserve her rape and death.


As for my pointing to God and by beliefs I already said that is for me and Him to work out. I never claimed it was moral I just claimed it was for us to work out. Maybe you misread that or it was just not clear to you. After all I do get a bit off track at times after a full day of work and all; if it was too difficult for you I am sorry. I will make it more clear here though. My moral issues are for me and God to work out not for me and posters on ATS to work out. I stand by my original statement if it is not morally acceptable to God than I hope He is more forgiving than us humans. Humans are known to be emotional and a bit unforgiving at times. If you find that difficult to understand I am not sure what to tell you aside from read it until you do.

As for going back and looking at that post I recalled reading it but I did not remember where it was so I did not bother mentioning it until I found the actual quote. Clear enough? If not, so sorry.

Raist



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