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Death gets second chance after lethal injection botched

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posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 10:24 PM
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reply to post by Kryties
 


I used your motto because you are using "emotional blackmail" instead of logic. Using the emotional response of "one innocent man executed!" is the same as using a family's grief over their 14yr old daughter's abduction, rape, and murder and have to wait a quarter of a century for the swift hand of justice.

In my first reply I stated that your entire argument is based on a flawed judicial system and knowing the system is flawed, logically, you would have to accept that there is a small chance of error in the outcome. While a few innocent men were executed, there were many more murders and rapists allowed to go free. All of them received a fair trial, so its the system that is the problem, not the method of punishment. So your innocent man argument is completely invalid anyway.




posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 10:41 PM
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reply to post by donwhite
 


en.wikipedia.org...

Did any of these people executed have a fair trial? Not a trial, but a fair trial? Or are you saying our present trial by juries are actually Salem witch hunts?

en.wikipedia.org...

It would seem that you are comparing my idea to improve education and the rehabilitation of prisoners into productive citizens to a regime that enslaved it's own people.

Are either of your replies any more than hyperbole?



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 11:13 PM
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It's a real sign that we're totally desensitized to reality that this thread exists in this context.

Like has been mentioned, the guy murdered and raped a 14 year old girl.

Those words can mean nothing because we read them so much in news articles. So when we read something new like this (the botched lethal injection) it can somehow seem more awful than the rape and murder of a 14 year old girl. How can that happen, how can our thought processes be so damaged that we feel pity for this man?

And yet we do. And that's because we have compassion even for the worst of all human scum. This is at the same time a wonderful blessing and a terrible curse.

I'm personally not happy about the state having power to execute people. But at this time, and in some states that is the law. He knew that when he did what he did. He took his chances and now he's taking his ride to hell.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of execution, he knew it could happen to him. And the responsibility to make sure he didn't get executed existed with him and him alone.



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 11:43 PM
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Originally posted by Kryties

LOL, and if you had have even read this page, let alone the entire thread, you would know I have a sister who was raped - that's pretty much the same thing as having a daughter who was raped wouldn't you say? No, she wasn't murdered but she still suffered a shocking and terrible ordeal the details of which I will not say here as I don't think my sister will appreciate it.

Got your foot in your mouth now? Shove it in real hard.


You need to let this one go. Really. Just because you have a sister that was raped does not mean that you know her inner thoughts. You do not know anything. All you know is what she has told you and allowed you to know. You will never understand like she does - NEVER.

You have my own post from earlier in this thread explaining why I have a hard time debating this issue without emotion. That doesn't mean that I can't, just that it is not easy. Since you have continued to call names and belittle anyone who answers with an emotional perspective, let me reiterate why this is an emotional subject for me. I was the same age as this victim, 14 years old, when my years of being raped on a daily basis started. I was lucky in that I wasn't murdered after the fact to hide the crimes, but at the time it was happening, I had no idea if that would be the day that I was killed or not. This went on for years. To this day, I have NEVER revealed the full extent of how this affects me every single day. Not to anyone. Not to my husband, not to my family, not to my counselors. I have told them what I thought they could handle or what didn't cross the line that I had drawn for myself in regard to what I could tell.

Just because your sister was abused, you might have a very general picture that she has allowed you to see, but you do not now, nor will you ever, truly know what her innermost thoughts and feelings are. No matter how much you think you do know - you don't. So, feel free to stop trying to play it off that just because your sister went through a horrific experience that you somehow have some better knowledge than anyone else here about this subject. You don't. She will never tell you everything. Especially all of her hidden thoughts and feelings that she doesn't ever want ANYONE to know.

You are especially welcome to stop calling names anyone who doesn't fall into lockstep agreement with your opinions. It disgusts me that you call the names that you have without even knowing what might prompt the opinions being expressed. I've stated what shapes my opinions for you yet again. To continue calling me barbaric or what have you is no skin off my back side and just shows you for the kind of person you are and how you feel about victims of rape.

Take care,
Cindi



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 03:54 AM
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This will be my last post in this thread. I am flabbergasted at the hide of some people who think they can insult and degrade me and then whinge when I give them the same treatment. There are those here who would deem to insult my country also, and expect that I say nothing in return. There are those here who would claim that I am a monster, that I have no feeling for the victim and that I wish the criminal run free. Apparently I am not allowed to prove them wrong either.

The plan seems to be to keep me silent and keep me looking like a monster. Well, I'm not going to play that game. If people want to misconstrue, or just plain ignore, words that I have typed and are clearly visible then that's not my problem. I can only point out how wrong they are.

I can prove every single accusation I have made above. But seeing as this will be my last post in this thread I'm afraid you'll have to actually read the entire thread yourselves to find the proof.

Now, there will be the inevitable whinging and moaning after I post this, just letting you know I probably won't even check this thread again
Some of you will probably whack me on your Foe lists like a last ditch "middle finger". Go for your lives, I care not.



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 04:53 AM
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As for the OP's opinion,
Making an argument that the death penalty can result in the deaths of innocent people doesn't exactly hold alot of water in my view.

You can't just imply that the justice system doesn't work. Granted:

1. There really is no justice in this world anyway. and..
2. No criminal justice system is ever going to be perfect.

However, you can't just walk through life actually believing that everyone is innocent either. We are "Innocent until proven guilty". And this involves the concept of "reasonable doubt" as determined by a jury of the people. Because of our criminal justice system we have pretty sick, dimented people separated from society. That's the way it SHOULD be. Yes, sometimes innocent people are wrongly accused for whatever reason. I'm not sure how often it even happens, but we can't just ignore a criminal case either.

I have as much a dislike of lawyers, cops, and the rest of the establishment as anyone else. But we rely on the justice system for our safety regardless of how flawed it really is. And you can't just ignore the brutal nature of certain kinds of crimes and then treat these people as you would someone who'd committed a lesser crime.

In many cases, these people openly admit what they've done, in many other cases they plead not guilty only to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they ARE guilty. And, IMO, when the crime is especially heinous and brutal as it is in this case, the perpetrator doesn't deserve the money we spend to house, feed, and maintain the health and well-being of these criminals until the time at which they grow old and die (which is going to happen to all of us anyway).

"Innocent until proven guilty" only applies in a court of law, does it not?

-ChriS



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 12:02 PM
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reply to post by Kryties
 


You are so incredibly out of touch with reality that it boggles the mind, and that is all I am going to say. Wow. Just wow.



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 02:04 PM
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reply to post by Kryties
 



Well thats a great attitude you have there, everyone deserves a second chance uh? then how about we let a bunch of child mollesters, rapest and murders of the worst kind out and move them next door to you, Im sure you would have no objections to living next such people, hey how about we let them work at your Kids school or maybe drive there school Bus!

Lol The death penalty is a blessing for scum like this, your right they deserve Life In prison where they are raped and live in fear for the rest of their lives with no chance of ever seeing freedom.

I would take the Death Penalty of a Life in prison my self. The death penalty is just clensing of the gene pool.



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 03:03 PM
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reply to post by Kryties
 


Kryties,


LOL How arrogant are you? Thinking that the USA is so bloody high and mighty compared to countries you admittedly know diddly squat about, except what you hear on Ham Radio and see on cable TV. That's the most arrogantly ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

I'm not going to bother answering the rest of your arrogant post.

And his name was Steve Irwin by the way.


Once again you are losing me. I dont know where you get the idea or concept that I believe the USA is arrogant or high and mighty. I was born overseas..In Africa. I have traveled the world.

I believe the arrogance is on your part. You assume that Oz is the world and people should be like Oz. That somehow by default Oz and the beliefs of Oz are the default moral high ground. I dont believe this at all. I also dont believe the standards of the USA are the moral high ground as well. I do believe that what we do here is out buisness not yours. What you do in your country is your buisness....not ours.
I do however know of certain occurances or events in your country and others which are very telling and am often want to speak out so. I do not expect to change thier form of government because of this. Nor do I think that they should take on our standards or beliefs.

Now that would be arrogant.

I do not believe in the World Position. I have been out here in the world and I am not impressed with it. Not much of interest out there for me.
What I find astonishing is the World position that if we as Americans think differently or are want to voice a different position/belief...we are somehow arrogant for doing so or not going along...defaulting. I dont buy into this default position ..on your part or anyone else.
THe World position is not the automatic moral high ground or the natural default position/opinion. That is arrogance.

Its ok if you dont want to post on this thread anymore or respond. It is your priveledge to post or not post just as much as is anyone elses.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 03:12 PM
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People people cmon now.

Abolish the death penalty! After all, there are worse things than death. A lot worse...

We should just replace capital punishment with capital torture. Hell it doesn't have to be physical. Put them in solitary for LIFE!!!!! (Depending on the crime of course)



posted on Sep, 23 2009 @ 09:14 AM
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Originally posted by Kryties
reply to post by jd140
 


personally I think you really do dislike me for my opinion and that your excuse is just that, an excuse. If you do not like me based on only several posts I have made stating my opinion then perhaps it's best that you keep me on ignore


I'll admit it. I do dislike you for that opinion.
But that, of course, is MY opinion.



[edit on 9/23/2009 by nostrashawnus]



posted on Sep, 23 2009 @ 11:43 AM
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When the society fails to address its problems, the society eventually rots resorting for easy solutions such as putting criminals to death. instead of looking for underlying causes why people turn criminals and cure the problem we all get to be quick to respond irresponsible regardless of our ability whether or not we understand the problem. This is where religion comes into play. I can guarantee you that if you turn the same Ohio criminal to one of the Muslim countries. The same man can turn into a very productive member of the Society. That is, if your society is not bent over revenge. Even though the lst attempt failed to kill him. The law should have exonerated him and not to kill him the 2nd time. But the government+Society was bent over revenge to kill him any way instead of giving the justice a chance. It is not that I condone the crime but one soul is too much for us to kill.



posted on Sep, 23 2009 @ 01:03 PM
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Originally posted by charlie0

When the society fails to address its problems, the society eventually rots resorting for easy solutions such as putting criminals to death. instead of looking for underlying causes why people turn criminals and cure the problem we all get to be quick to respond irresponsible regardless of our ability whether or not we understand the problem. This is where religion comes into play.


Hmmmm...Has it ever occured to some that the underlying cause of much criminal activity is that criminals look for the easy solutions more instinctively than non criminals. Can it be that some of us are so stuck on our religion/religions that we are blinid to this concept???

When I detect that people miss out on this concept..I am forced to ask myself what the religion is on which they are stuck.
And yes....politics can be a devout zealous religion. This becomes more and more obvious by the zeal and devoutness by which many practice politics such as is promoted by the OPs topic.

As to sending criminals to Muslim countries...they will be processed much much faster in these countries than here and with much less in overhead, costs, or drama.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Sep, 23 2009 @ 01:29 PM
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reply to
post by Kryties
 




This will be my last post in this thread. I am flabbergasted at the hide of some people who think they can insult and degrade me and then whine when I give them the same treatment. There are those here who would deem to insult my country also, and expect that I say nothing in return. But seeing as this will be my last post in this thread I'm afraid you'll have to actually read the entire thread yourselves to find the proof.

Now, there will be the inevitable whining and moaning after I post this, just letting you know I probably won't even check this thread again Some of you will probably whack me on your Foe lists like a last ditch "middle finger." Go for your lives, I care not.



You have run afoul of the Red State mentality up here. You’ll see these fellows driving older Ford F150s, wearing ragged short sleeve denim shirts and maybe a tattoo - MOTHER - or God Bless America - are very popular, and a rifle slung in the rear view window. They favor big belt buckles with a pair of pistols or rifles crossed, and embossed thereon, “I'll give you my gun when you take it from my cold, dead hands ... “ quoting from Charlton Heston (1923-2008) the co-founder of the modern NRA.

Red-necks I call’em. Fortunately many of them are too illiterate to register to vote. Thank you God for little things. They are part of the Paliln/Limbaugh Axis of Ignorance. The Republican base. Aside: Sarah better be on watch for middle-aged Lynne Cheney, the dumb but loud-mouth daughter of the Cheney Draft Evading Team, is trying as hard as she can to replace her (demented) father who has worn out his welcome on most talk shows. Dick is a charter member of the Neo Con Movement, but he does no know what NEO means.

Carry On Mr K! But stay out of Croatia. I don’t like Croatia for what it did in WW2 in collaboration with the Nazis. Punishment for which we conveniently ignored because we were then coddling Marshall Tito.



posted on Sep, 23 2009 @ 01:36 PM
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Originally posted by Kryties
Personally I think being locked in a cell 23 hours a day alone for the rest of my life is a FAR worse punishment than death.


I don't get it. First you lament the death penalty, than propose something that you are saying is even worse. Get your logic straight.



posted on Sep, 23 2009 @ 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by charlie0
I can guarantee you that if you turn the same Ohio criminal to one of the Muslim countries. The same man can turn into a very productive member of the Society.


Having committed a rape/murder... I doubt it. He would be hang in some Muslim localities, had body parts cut off in others and decapitated in Saudi Arabia. You can't be a productive member of the Society without a head... Wait... maybe you can.



posted on Sep, 23 2009 @ 03:08 PM
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reply to post by donwhite
 



You have run afoul of the Red State mentality up here. You’ll see these fellows driving older Ford F150s, wearing ragged short sleeve denim shirts and maybe a tattoo - MOTHER - or God Bless America - are very popular, and a rifle slung in the rear view window. They favor big belt buckles with a pair of pistols or rifles crossed, and embossed thereon, “I'll give you my gun when you take it from my cold, dead hands ... “ quoting from Charlton Heston (1923-2008) the co-founder of the modern NRA.

Red-necks I call’em. Fortunately many of them are too illiterate to register to vote. Thank you God for little things. They are part of the Paliln/Limbaugh Axis of Ignorance. The Republican base. Aside: Sarah better be on watch for middle-aged Lynne Cheney, the dumb but loud-mouth daughter of the Cheney Draft Evading Team, is trying as hard as she can to replace her (demented) father who has worn out his welcome on most talk shows. Dick is a charter member of the Neo Con Movement, but he does no know what NEO means.


Don,

This is called stereotyping and is frowned upon by much of the media and public education except when they do it ..by default and call it the moral ethical high ground.

Many Americans of both parties are begining to look with disgust on this tack and method of self justification. They are discovering that they dont need a government financed makeover.

This is also the exact mentality/self justification/entitlement thinking which is trying to justify anyone with a dissenting opinion as "RACIST."

It initially appears to be the high moral ethical ground until one thinks it carefully through. It is only a poor method of censorship.

Oh...though I own a truck I mostly ride my scooter or moped to and fro work and my various tasks about town.

Stereotyping is cheap political censorship to default through unquestioned and unchallanged. It is often accompanied by drama techniques to solidify ones grasp on the emotions of others for control purposes. This method also goes by another name ..."Guilt Politics or Guilt Conditioning." It was made popular as a political conditioning tool by the talk show circuit begining way back with Phil Donahue.

Many of us are not intrested in this technique as well. It has been so overused, misused, and abused in self justification.

I probably need to take a lie detector or DNA test on this post!!
No makeovers needed here.

Thanks,
Orangetom




[edit on 23-9-2009 by orangetom1999]



posted on Sep, 23 2009 @ 04:43 PM
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Wow, to be honest this is a hard one for me and at times have been on both sides of this issue in my thinking.

On the one hand I feel that anyone that would do what this man did does not deserve to live. On the other hand I don't believe in the death penalty.

So basically two emotions warring with each other as I feel we should not be harming anyone in any way. Kinda like two wrongs do not make a right. This man was wrong in what he did, but killing him is also wrong.

I guess life in prison in a tiny cell 24/7, no tv etc would be far more appropriate to me. Or along with some forced labor which helps society, which is somehow done without contact with others. I am sure that within a small cell some type of work that is beneficial to society could be done. To me that would be far more "payback" to society for crimes committed than either just life in prison being taken care of or the death penalty. Lifelong in prison doing some kind of work which benefits society as a whole.

Though no, I do not know that I would feel the same if it was my child. I can say, as I child I went through some really bad things, I obviously was not killed, but I had moments when I wished I was, and still to this day, I do not want that person killed, I just wish he had spent his life in prison. So from that angle, I still don't look at the death penalty as being a viable option.

So I guess you can look at me as someone who went through something close to what this child went through, but I survived, and still I do not believe in the death penalty.

I think some of the emotions has to do with where I am in my life, as before I had actually dealt with my childhood in counseling, I was vehemently of the opinion that the person should have been killed. Don't get me wrong, forgiveness is not an issue here, I can never forgive for the harm done, but I can understand that this person was intensely sick, (anyone that harms a child in such a way is), and should have been put in prison for life.

The United States is now the only first world country that 1. still has the death penalty and 2. does not have a universal or public option health plan.

I think that makes us less than a first world country. I think that kind of makes us a backwards country in some ways.

And no, I am not forgetting the victim, and I so wished that things could be different, and we did not have such crime at all (yeah wishful thinking), but we do, and as a society, we do need to come to some conclusion as to how we are going to deal with this.

Becoming violent towards someone who is violent, does not solve the problem in my mind.

Harm NONE
Peace



posted on Sep, 23 2009 @ 05:46 PM
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Originally posted by Kryties
Honestly then, what's wrong with sticking the child-killer in a locked 6x4 room with a small slot for food 3 times a day and no human contact? Complete and utter segregation from society and the general prison population.

I quite like the idea of flinging him out to sea in a catapult for a little humiliation and then, when he swims in, throwing him in jail and slamming the door.

It's better than sinking to their level and torturing and/or executing them back isn't it?



I am sorry, perhaps I am a bit inhuman myself, but I just laughed so hard at this.

I imagined back to when I was a child, and what I went through, and imagined being the one to "pull" the trigger which flung my attacker out into the sea, and man o man, it feels way better than the idea of "killing" him does, which leaves a horrid emotion within me.

Being that I don't advocate for the death penalty, I would advocate for this, and the victims being the one to "pull" the trigger, and then being the ones to toss the key after their attacker is put in prison for life.

Harm None
Peace



posted on Sep, 23 2009 @ 05:53 PM
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reply to post by Kryties
 


With all the anti government sentiments rantings I see on ATS I find it odd that we have no problem with letting the state murder it's citizens in the name of justice. This has nothing to do with morality. It's all about control.Innocent people will die at the hands of the state. And that's ok because we need our pound of flesh. Just one of the many reasons I'm hightailing it to Amsterdam. I feel the need to live with civilized people.



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