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Death gets second chance after lethal injection botched

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posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 04:07 AM
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reply to post by Kryties
 


I absolutely agree with you OP!

I`m from Norway, the death penalty was disestablished in 1979, but we had our last execution as far back as in 1948.

I mean that no matter what you did, you can change.
This guy did his crime 25 years ago, and I`m pretty sure hes not the same man today. I`m not saying he is a good guy and should be let out, but nobody deserves to be treated like that.

Death penalty is primitive, and nobody has the right to kill, even the government.

There is a big risk of executing someone who is innocent, and that alone is reason enough to stop this madness.




posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 09:00 AM
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reply to post by Anom3
 




absolutely agree with you OP! I`m from Norway, the death penalty was disestablished in 1979, but we had our last execution as far back as in 1948. Death penalty is primitive, and nobody has the right to kill, even the government. There is a big risk of executing someone who is innocent, and that alone is reason enough to stop this madness.



There is no follow up on the executed. Occasionally we will learn that another person committed the crime but that’s after the fact. No one in power wants that to happen on his watch. For the public to LEARN that a mistake was made. So we live in a happy world where we do no wrong. But there is a down side. For every innocent man executed (or imprisoned), a guilty man runs free to rob or kill again!

The only instance where an outside study has been made was in Illinois. 1990s-2000s. After DNA became accepted, Chicago’s Northwestern University Law School and the NY based Death Penalty Project studied the 169 men on the Illinois death row over an 12 year period. The grunt work was done for the most part by NU Law students. The result was 11 men were found to be innocent and 1 more was also innocent but he was discovered only when 1 of the 4 police officers who had conspired to frame the man had a change of heart and disclosed the conspiracy. Seven (7) percent of the inmates were innocent.

Illinois Governor George Ryan (R) commuted all death sentences to life in prison and suspended the further execution of prisoners until, as he said, “We get it right.” The DP has not been resumed in Illinois as of this writing. (NJ and NM abolished the DP this year). See Note 1.

Assuming that same seven percentage would hold in Texas, where Governor Bush had 154 men executed - a world record unlikely to be broken - which means George Jr had 10 or 11 innocent men put to death. Which fact seems not to bother him one bit. Let me digress a minute to explain why I harp on Bush Jr. See Note 2.

We boast of a three co-equal branch of government system. We also boast of checks and balances, one against the other. The executive branch (president) can veto an act of the legislative branch (congress). The Federal judiciary is appointed for life but must first be chosen by the executive branch then approved by the legislative branch (senate) before taking their seat. The legislative branch (house) can bring impeachment proceedings again any executive branch or judicial branch officer. A 2/3rds vote by the senate which serves as the jury is required to convict. AND the executive branch can PARDON or COMMUTE any sentence imposed by the judiciary (but not an impeachment). In fact, it is accepted as legal fact that a pardon can come before the crime is even discovered. See the Pardon of President Nixon. See Note 3.

Our 50 state governments emulate or imitate the Federal system. The governor of a death penalty state (now 36) must sign the death warrant before the execution is performed. The question is: Is the governor’s signature a non-delegatable duty or is it merely a clerical function (pro forma) a rubber stamp would work as well? Of course, we should know the answer: it is a non-delegatable duty imposed on the governor to restrain a runaway judiciary.

So how does a governor discharge this duty? He, the governor and not some state functionary, must review the record of the about to be executed person to establish 2 facts beyond any reasonable doubt: 1) that this is the right man who committed the crime for which he is about to die, and 2) that the man had a “fair trial” which that means he had the benefit of due process, the code words for our English Common Law judicial system.

Now we know George Jr (like Sarah Palin) does not read. His wife reads to him at night. Like the Harry Potter books? He has exposed this bad trait (habit) more than once when he was questioned publicly about even a short document and he did not know what it contained. No trick question, but just a trick answer. If you do not read for yourself, you cannot know good advice from bad advice. Say Hello Bush Jr!

So how much of a 10,000 page trial record would a governor have to read? Enough to satisfy himself of the TWO requirements set forth above. Right man, fair trial. Any man who “loves” the death penalty as George Jr obviously does, would not have to read much but even George Jr had to read something!

So I “know” without knowing that George did not do his duty before he signed the Death Warrants. And for sure not 154 times over a 6 year period, about 1 execution ever 2 weeks, on average in Texas. More “deterrent” that you could put in an 18 wheeler! You’d think Texas was a Crime Free Zone!

I’m satisfied that Texas - one of America’s most egregious states for fairness along with Louisiana - has killed more than the Illinois 7% of innocent men. This is also known as the Red State Blue State divide.

Note 1.
Governor Ryan is now in prison himself, for crimes he was convicted of when he was attorney general of Illinois. He is the second governor of Illinois to be imprisoned. A third, former governor Blagojevich may soon became No. 3.

Note 2.
Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger of CA has ordered the execution of 1 man so far in his 2 terms. For this violation of human rights, he was stripped of his Austrian citizenship and his name on a stadium in his hometown was removed. He was asked to return a symbolic ring but he has refused to do that.

Note 3.

Now, THEREFORE, I, GERALD R. FORD, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9,1974.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this eighth day of September, in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and seventy-four, and of the Independence of the United States of America the one hundred and ninety-ninth.

GERALD R. FORD
www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov...

Post Script. It is interesting to note the pardon goes back do Day 1 of Nixon’s 2 terms to which he was elected. January 20, 1969. Watergate happened in 1972 during the second electoral campaign. Nixon had actually operated a burglary ring in the Oval Office. He and Attorney General Mitchell - he went to prison - no doubt planned it. Nixon wanted to know the Dems plans. So he arranged to bug Democratic Chairman Larry O’Brien’s office. “Why” has never been properly answered, IMO. Per James Dean we know Nixon had a very large amount of cash - which source was never explained - in the Oval Office safe, enough to bribe the 5 or 6 operatives caught in the Watergate burglaries. Bebe Rebozzo was a Miami banker and close friend of Nixon. "Laundered" cash would have been easy for Nixon to come by.

I have a theory. Nixon was nonplused over his loss to Kennedy in 1960. Him a good Protestant (Quaker) beaten by a Catholic! It did not make sense. Nixon barely won the 1968 election on the false promise to end the Vietnam War. He decided he wanted to repeat George Washington’s first electoral win and win EVERY state in the Union next time around. Note: Onlly 10 states voted in the first election. NY, NC and RI did not vote. End. That was Nixon's 1972 goal. To be the equal of Washington.

The Democrats assisted him by nominating the near-pacifist George McGovern of South Dakota. It was soon obvious Nixon would win handily. He was leading in every poll. He had a comfortable margin in nearly every state. Of course, Nixon knew he could not carry the District of Columbia but it was not a state. Nixon did carry all states except South Dakota and the DC. Close but still not a cigar!

So for that ego trip, Nixon lost it all!


[edit on 9/26/2009 by donwhite]



posted on Sep, 27 2009 @ 12:25 AM
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reply to post by donwhite
 




So Abu Ghraib should be our model? The amenities listed above have been shown to keep the prisoners level of resistence under control better than hiring extra guards in cases where such activities are not offered. In a cell block with 50 prisoners, cable tv is worth 2 or 3 guards. Since the law requires the state to furnish health care for prisoners an exercise room and program is more to the benefit of the state’s taxpayers than it is to the prisoners. Finally, more than 80% of all persons behind bars today will be released back into the general public. What is smart about barbarizing those men? Why not try humanizing instead? Or is it better to release a mad dog? We need to quit thinking DUMB and try thinking SMART.


I see that you like to take things to the extreme... I never insinuated in any way that Abu Ghraib prison should be a model for our federal prison system, but buy the same token I don't think they should reflect in any manor the comforts of a day spa. A couple of cable television sets in a cell block to help keep tensions down is a great idea, as is a place for exersize, and a stock of books. It is prison though, so I think that having the luxury of private televisions, the internet, and a gym that would rival any Gold's that you have ever seen is defeating the purpose.



So you want us to look (and act) like them? Hmm?


This was in response to me saying that the reason for the high costs of incarceration and execution was due to us being more concerned with prisoners rights and comfort than their crimes... I'm not sure what your statement has to do with that, but the point I was making is that it is prison, it should suck. If you did something to be put there then you shouldn't be comfortable, you should be miserable. Now before you turn me saying "miserable" into me saying that we should torture prisoners let me state that what I mean is the time there be generally unpleasant, which in many cases with our fed. prisons it really isn't.



It is not the prisoners who delay justice. It is the courts. We have too many cases for the number of judges. We have too few lawyers willing to work for the public defender’s office. We have court rules that only allow ONE ground for complaint to be dealt at a time. All cases must first go through the state system before the Federal system is open to them. Sure, the prisoners are not complaining about the delays. But it is the taxpayers who do not want to spend the money necessary to hasten the final outcomes. Only the victim’s survivors and a few kinky people are in a hurry. People who want to be vigilantes and would likely have been up front in the old Ku Klux Klan days.


Yes the courts are backed up, but to say that the prisoners and their attorneys are not actively trying to delay sentencing is ridiculous. As far as equating a person desiring a quicker appeals process with a racist in favor of lynchings, that is just a purely ignorant statement. I think it is funny that you would say that just a few paragraphs after making the comment that people should quit thinking dumb....



posted on Sep, 27 2009 @ 02:42 AM
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reply to post by Majiq
 




I don't think they should reflect in any manor the comforts of a day spa. A couple of cable television sets in a cell block to help keep tensions down is a great idea, as is a place for exercise, and a stock of books. It is prison though, so I think that having the luxury of private televisions, the internet, and a gym that would rival any Gold's that you have ever seen is defeating the purpose.



I have never been to a day spa so I really don’t know what to say. As relates to prisons and prisoners, it is proven that nice is better. It is hard work doing time in a prison, any prison. That we are not doing the job very well is proven by the recidivism rate. Every parent knows the worse thing for a child is to have them in a place where they are unoccupied. Idleness. It can be demonstrated that length of sentence has no measurable effect on outcomes. Much of the problem with our system is uninformed people wanting to outdo each other in suggesting ignorant ways to humiliate people and continue to think somehow that will make this a better world.





This was in response to me saying that the reason for the high costs of incarceration and execution was due to us being more concerned with prisoners rights and comfort than their crimes... I'm not sure what your statement has to do with that, but the point I was making is that it is prison, it should suck. If you did something to be put there then you shouldn't be comfortable, you should be miserable.



So you favor a torturing environment but say you don’t favor torture. That is not 5th grader talk. It sounds like you actually do favor torture but want to call it something else. The real criteria for any prison is program should be: Does this make the work environment for staff SAFER? As for tv, having too few tvs is as bad as having no tvs. When men have too much time on their hands, they will fight over which program to run. If it is at all possible, every man (or woman) should have his (or her) tv so that issue does not arise.

The basic rule how to treat people anywhere including those in prison is to treat them as you would want to be treated in the same or similar circumstances. Being there is punishment enough.




Yes the courts are backed up, but to say that the prisoners and their attorneys are not actively trying to delay sentencing is ridiculous. As far as equating a person desiring a quicker appeals process with a racist in favor of lynching, that is just a purely ignorant statement.



So why would anyone expect a prisoner to hasten his own demise? Isn’t that naive? The system needs to be organized so that appeals can be processed in a timely manner. If that task takes a staff of 200 lawyers and 400 assistants and the taxpayer only wants to provide 50 lawyers and 25 assistants, then isn’t it stupid beyond description to complain about the delay in the system?

It is unreasonable to lay blame on the prisoner or his lawyer until the system itself is fixed to work better. Then if there is still delay, it could well be the prisoners are causing it. But you can’t tell that until you have a working system. But this is a popular theme for many people who would not vote a dime for more prison staff yet want to carp over the delays. That’s not 5th grade level either.

Just repeating what sounds cute (or macho) gets us nowhere. There are real problems out there that need public support to fix. And there is little need for blathering about going to the spa. That sounds too much like Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck talk. Which talk is dumbing down America.



posted on Sep, 27 2009 @ 05:28 AM
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reply to post by donwhite
 


Donwhite,

You know one of the most pitiful things I find about stereotyping is how it plays to easily emoted audiences. What I also found most disturbing was when a Presidential Candidate did it. Pretty much the same tack you used. This candidate is now the President of the United States.
I found this realization of this President and the party he represents to be lacking in leadership potential if they must resort to stereotyping a segment of the population. This is not leadership..it is cheap salesmanship. The election is now over and they are still stereotyping.
Especially and particularly with the race card. It gets tiring and once again is not leadership. What you come to realize is that race and stereotyping is the best they have.

What I have also concluded is that the standards for President of the United States are not as high as many Americans assume they are. I have actucally been thinking this back to the Jimmy Carter Presidency. It has just become more obvious as other Presidents came and went. ...both republican and democrat.


Guilty as charged. Unfortunately, IMO 4 or 5 of the most prolific posters here deserve no better evaluation than that offered by stereotyping. They’re a perfect fit in other words and I just used shorthand instead of bandwidth.


Does this show leadership Donwhite or just another stamped out copy of what preceeded you? You know....like a xerox machine with stock phrases and techniques. Kinda like the news media...all repeating the same stock news and phrases...over and over and over.
I dont know who are or are not the most prolific posters on here. I particularly tend to stay away from the 9/11 and UFO boards. No thanks.


It is just such non-thinking persons who are played like a fiddle’s strings by the right wing demagogues who want a world in which 1) the rich do not pay taxes, 2) foreigners (mainly Hispanics) are the evil beings, and 3) Star Wars successor will save America. Pure Reagan-esque revisited.


Here you are doing it again with the quote above.
Please tell me how the above quote differs in technique from this one from your previous post on page 14??


You have run afoul of the Red State mentality up here. You’ll see these fellows driving older Ford F150s, wearing ragged short sleeve denim shirts and maybe a tattoo - MOTHER - or God Bless America - are very popular, and a rifle slung in the rear view window. They favor big belt buckles with a pair of pistols or rifles crossed, and embossed thereon, “I'll give you my gun when you take it from my cold, dead hands ... “ quoting from Charlton Heston (1923-2008) the co-founder of the modern NRA.

Red-necks I call’em. Fortunately many of them are too illiterate to register to vote. Thank you God for little things. They are part of the Paliln/Limbaugh Axis of Ignorance. The Republican base. Aside: Sarah better be on watch for middle-aged Lynne Cheney, the dumb but loud-mouth daughter of the Cheney Draft Evading Team, is trying as hard as she can to replace her (demented) father who has worn out his welcome on most talk shows. Dick is a charter member of the Neo Con Movement, but he does no know what NEO means.


Now watch here again donwhite..


As for racism, I admit most white Americans do not see themselves as racists. In fact, those otherwise good folk have generally replaced old time, Jim Crow era exploitation and suppression with a healthy dose of paternalism on the cheap. All of which substitutes are race based. Unless one subscribes to the fallicious notion that blacks are genetically inferior to whites, then what other explanation can be offered to explain their plight?


Do you have anything on your menu but rich folks, whites, Rednecks, Rifles, trucks, Illiterates, racists. Yada yada yada? This stereotyping drama technique is exactly what I see coming from our present leadership. I dont call it leadership at all Donwhite. I call it divisive. The politics of divide and conquer. Establishing self justification at the expense of others with the ability to default through on self promotion/justification.

What I do not call it is "Leadership."

Leadership Donwhite is a very different thing. You cannot be in a position of leadership and still sing last years songs. It simply wont do. Eventually people will figure it out.


I submit slavery and its aftermath. I’m waiting for another offer.


This is last years song.

The politics of Guilt and guilt by stereotyping does not work on me.
The problem is that many Americans both on the left and right are begining to catch on to this template. They are even getting savvy enough to look at the media itself and voting with their remote controllers/on off switchs. Newspaper sales and media ratings are reflecting this changing trend.

When you have a political party heavily dependent on Race and race issues...one thing becomes clear. They must maintain race and race guilt in every aspect to justify thier positions. Why is this??..because they must have race to play through unchallanged. They are dependent on it as a control issue. They are themselves racists...while labeling others so. This is becoming transparent. They only have race and must burden everyone else with it.
I am not interested in this type of insecurity being foisted off on me or anyone eles as a default setting to get over on me. Neither by any political party nor a media shilling for them. No thanks.


So Abu Ghraib should be our model? The amenities listed above have been shown to keep the prisoners level of resistence under control better than hiring extra guards in cases where such activities are not offered.


I can make this same argument for people out here ..not in prision...or are they??? Are they not controlled?? On drugs???? How about those Redskins??? Did you see Dancing with the Stars?? American Idol??
Who is the prisioner??? Who is on drugs??

Is not public education today becoming rapidly a television education??
Any connection with behavior modification??

Who is this Sheriff in Arizona...Tucson or is it Phoenix?? The one who keeps getting re elected. The one the people seem to like. You know the one with the good "RATINGS." You know..DonWhite..the one running their prision system??

This here donwhite...


Much of the problem with our system is uninformed people wanting to outdo each other in suggesting ignorant ways to humiliate people and continue to think somehow that will make this a better world.


Is this not a definition of politics...self justification...guilt transfence..also public education...also television programing...which is also what public education is become. And alot of our children are raised in front of a television set. Who is in prision here don? Think it through carefully.
Some of us already have. It is not 5th grader stuff to see it.


The basic rule how to treat people anywhere including those in prison is to treat them as you would want to be treated in the same or similar circumstances. Being there is punishment enough.


This initially looks good on the surface until you realize that most of the folks in prision got there because they did not treat people how they themselves wanted to be treated. Rocket material or 5th grade material.
Hard to tell the difference when one is stuck on emotions to justify. It becomes easy to cloud the reality with such thought processes based on a faulty premise.

Most of them are there because they did not treat someone else how they wanted to be treated. Dont let anyone lose sight of this thought ...and cloud the reality of what happened with such drama techniques often under such sublime logic and reason. They got there in prision by not treating others as they themselves wanted to be treated.

Thanks,
Orangetom












[edit on 27-9-2009 by orangetom1999]



posted on Sep, 27 2009 @ 05:34 AM
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reply to post by donwhite
 


I think you mean John Dean? Anyway, well said.



posted on Sep, 27 2009 @ 08:59 AM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 





The basic rule how to treat people anywhere including those in prison is to treat them as you would want to be treated in the same or similar circumstances. Being there is punishment enough.


This initially looks good on the surface until you realize that most of the folks in prison got there because they did not treat people how they themselves wanted to be treated. Rocket material or 5th grade material. Hard to tell the difference when one is stuck on emotions to justify. It becomes easy to cloud the reality with such thought processes based on a faulty premise.



What brought a person into the penal system is really not relevant to the treatment he or she received while in the custody of the state. Excepting of course those who have treatable mental disorders or physical problems that require medical care. In the main, prisons miss the great opportunity to educate the inmates. But we have little or no money for teachers and on top of that, politicians have to face a very vocal segment of the electorate that want the prisoners to SUFFER. Which they do already.

Worse. Because DP cases are much more strictly scrutinized, legally speaking, than non DP cases, my use of the 7% innocent for DPs would probably be double that for the general population . 15%. Innocent. In the last couple months we’ve seen 2 men set free after 10 or 20 years behind bars. We know they are there. Yet we do nothing to ascertain who is and who is not properly there. I do not blame police in most cases. They are overworked. They have too much to do and too little time to do it. But, taxpayers will not want to double the Public Safety budget. So the prospects for improvement in the future look bleak.




Most of them are there because they did not treat someone else how they wanted to be treated. Don’t let anyone lose sight of this thought ...and cloud the reality of what happened with such drama techniques often under such sublime logic and reason. They got there in prison by not treating others as they themselves wanted to be treated. Thanks, Orangetom



You’re saying the obvious. “Most of them . . . . “ Is that a rationale for overlooking what goes wrong in the system and the penal institutions? Then if anyone missed the foregoing, it is repeated here, “They got there in prison by not treating . . . “ It sounds much to me like you are approving the disagreeable conduct that I have denounced and accepting the known inadequacies of what passes for prison today.



posted on Sep, 27 2009 @ 01:27 PM
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reply to post by donwhite
 


I think Don that you are missing much of what I am posting.


What brought a person into the penal system is really not relevant to the treatment he or she received while in the custody of the state.


Wow Don...I'm asking myself if you have the makings of a politician. Does this come up at parole board meetings?? What brought a person into the penal system. What do prison inmates think of child molesters??


You’re saying the obvious. “Most of them . . . . “ Is that a rationale for overlooking what goes wrong in the system and the penal institutions?


And you don are using this as justification for throwing out the baby with the bath water. As someone else stated it is prision..not a country club.

I cannot remember that guys name...the Sheriff in Tucson..or Phoenix who is so popular with the electorate there. Now many politicians dont like him and neither does the ACLU.

Last I heard this sheriff is bringing the budget for the SPCA back in line and having the prisioners manage the animals. It works well as rehab too.
The SPCA budget was getting way out of line.

My point in my previous post don..was that they are bringing the animalistic trends of prision and prision mentality/standards out here to the social structure. Our children are begining to conduct themselves with the same mentality learned through television programming et al. How to humiliate others.

How to humiliate others in order to make ones self look good...bullying..guilt techniques. Even our political process is showing the same signs in self justification..treating others how they would not want to be treated themselves. Selling the souls of the public for power and votes.

In short..don...prision is being brought out here to the public...by logic, by reason, by ignorance and seduction.

What is the difference in a prisioner controlled by television don and a 13 year olde raised on a steady diet of televisioni and video games??
And public school is becoming a television/movie/video game education Don.

Then we wonder why our children have behavior problems.

From your post to Majiq

So you want us to look (and act) like them? Hmm?


Many of us don are acting and looking like them. The interesting thing about this is how few people recognize this trend in conduct...even in belief systems. The prision mentality is being brought out here to the public.

Oh...by the way don..our public shools never get enough funding either...except when votes are needed.

Is that not the biggest difference...prisioners do not vote don?? Felons.

DP cases are indeed more strictly scrutinized. This is relegated to the state levels where it should be ..not the federal levels.
Nonetheless..we do not throw out the baby with the bath water to put ointment on the sentiments of those people who want to run things by feelings and emotions.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Sep, 27 2009 @ 04:03 PM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 


Mr. OT9, I've got to go to a family dinner this PM. I will be back to you a bit later.



posted on Sep, 28 2009 @ 03:50 AM
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reply to post by donwhite
 


Well we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I have expressed my view which is all I really wanted to do, and I refuse to fall into the pit of simple minded name calling that you are trying to dig.

I will state though one thing from my experience with the state prison system. I spent 4 months in the county jail before being transferred to a state penitentiary. The prison that I was in for the remaining 12 months treated people much like what you seem to think is the best way, I had a very nice weight room, plenty of tv time, a library, hell, by the time I left there I had my own personal tv, coffee maker, and radio. Quite frankly it did nothing that I could see as far as deterring future offenses. The county jail however sucked. I wasn't tortured there, but I had 3 crappy meals a day, 3 tvs for 70+ inmates in the pod, and an hour of rec per day. Other than that it was a metal bunk, a hard mattress, and no pillow.

I am fairly sure that I'm not going back to prison, but not because of the nice treatment I got in the prison. It is because I never want to see the inside of a jail again. I wholeheartedly believe that if the state, and federal prisons where as bad as the county jails, the number of repeat offenders would drastically drop.



posted on Sep, 28 2009 @ 06:37 AM
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I say imprison him. He is the murderer, not me.

Over and out
Twisted-Inside-Out



posted on Sep, 29 2009 @ 01:46 PM
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reply to post by Majiq
 



Well we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
I spent 4 months in the county jail before being transferred to a state penitentiary. The prison that I was in for the remaining 12 months treated people much like what you seem to think is the best way, Quite frankly it did nothing that I could see as far as deterring future offenses. The county jail however sucked. I wasn't tortured there, but I had 3 crappy meals a day, 3 tvs for 70+ inmates in the pod, and an hour of rec per day. Other than that it was a metal bunk, a hard mattress, and no pillow.

I am fairly sure that I'm not going back to prison, but not because of the nice treatment I got in the prison. It is because I never want to see the inside of a jail again. I wholeheartedly believe that if the state, and federal prisons where as bad as the county jails, the number of repeat offenders would drastically drop.



Interesting perspective. My closest association comes from a 20 year long friendship with a now retired KSP guard. And another friend who got 5 years in the pen for non-payment of child support which he sorely deserved. A medical doctor who bought Porsche cars and would not pay his court ordered child support. Perhaps my attitude about him and that is why he has not spoken to me since his incarceration.

He, after going though the Reception Center was assigned to Kentucky’s “home away from home” lockup for the Rich and Famous. Frankfort Correctional Institute. Individual 8 X 10 rooms with regular doors but with one-way glass for the staff to keep an eye open. The staff by the way was unarmed. If you attempted to walk away - no fence either - the staff would blow a thistle and call for you to come back! When you were finally apprehended, you were then sent to a real prison.

KY also has the 6 month served by first offenders and you can get which is called SHOCK PROBATION. That is based on the idea that any good prison will do for you will be done in six months. The other idea is to keep inmates from learning more about crime than they really need to know. He got “shocked” as they say, after 6 months, mostly because he was an MD. It is very hard to put or keep a rich man in prison in America.

I don’t know what to say about your jail experience. It sounds no worse than my 12 week long Air Force basic training which did not forestall me from re-enlisting. Of course I shared my misery with 71 other young men in my Flight - AF talk for a group. All of us got to spend time on our knees. Not praying, but scrubbing the floor with GI brushes and lye soap. No, I never made a bed that would bounce a quarter - urban legends - but I have made the same bed 3 or 4 times over. Afer 14 days of hard scrabble drill we got 30 minutes OFF to go to the BX - AF speak for Army’s PX - and treat ourselves to ICE CREAM! But that’s old stuff.

I guess it’s all according to what you get used to.



posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 03:13 PM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 




I'm asking myself if you have the makings of a politician. Does this come up at parole board meetings?? What brought a person into the penal system.

What do prison inmates think of child molesters?



I don’t like the parole board system. A parole board member is asked to assess the inmate’s past, review his conduct during incarceration and from that to deduce what he or she will be most likely to do in the future. This sounds more like a resume for a financial adviser, say like Bernie Madoof?

IMO, instead of parole, early release ought to be straight forward and based on the inmates conduct in prison. Example: a 1st offender should get 3 days OFF his sentence for each day served without incident. A second offender gets 2 days off and the 3rd or more frequent repeater gets 1 day off for each day served. This is a simple method for early release and is totally fair and it gives the inmate on-going incentive to “act right” during his stay behind bars. Which is great for staff!

I also favor a geriatrics rule. Any prisoner who attains age 65 and has served more than 5 years prior to his birthday, would have his sentence automatically cut in half but in no case would he be held longer than 50% of his life expectancy.

As for what other inmates think about a child molester, what does that have to do with anything. Who runs the prison? The state or the inmates.

I’m having grave misgivings about the POST sentence treatment of sex offenders anyway. Proscribing where they can live. Making them subject to police interrogation at any time. Posting public notices about their past crimes. It is flagrantly against our long held legal customs and traditions.

All of that is also UNCONSTITUTIONAL. It violates due process. It ignores the amendments 4, 5, 6 and 8. You will profit if you read those. In similar circumstances in the past when I have complained that to do that you need to amend the constitution, having in mind my idea the citizens would not do such a thing, but now I’m not so sure about the citizens. Maybe it's better to hope that as soon as we can get a Supreme Court free of the Roberts, Kennedy, Alito, Sacalia and Thomas types we can undo this mess and get back to basic justice in America.




I cannot remember that guys name...the Sheriff in Tucson..or Phoenix who is so popular with the electorate there. Now many politicians don’t like him and neither does the ACLU.



The grand standing dumb-ass super egotistical press-hound sheriff of Phoenix (Maricopa county) is Joe Arpaiio. But what the hey, he’s in Arizona isn’t he? Very close to Texas.




Our children are beginning to conduct themselves with the same mentality learned through television programming et al. How to humiliate others. How to humiliate others in order to make ones self look good. ..bullying. .guilt techniques. Even our political process is showing the same signs in self justification. .treating others how they would not want to be treated themselves. Selling the souls of the public for power and votes.



Well, as long as FOX and Rupert Murdoch can have protection from the First Amendment - free speech - but NOT free IRRESPONSIBLE speech - it will go on. If enough citizen viewers will write 1) to the sponsors and 2) write to their congressman, things will change. But that’s too much like work?




DP cases are indeed more strictly scrutinized. This is relegated to the state levels where it should be ..not the federal levels.



You have it backwards. The STATE level of justice is very poor, and is replete with graft and corruption not to mention incompetence. States are basically law and order courts offering hang’em high justice. Good justice is found only in the FEDERAL system and it is not found everywhere there. Justice in America is hard to come by.

[edit on 10/2/2009 by donwhite]



posted on Oct, 4 2009 @ 04:24 PM
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reply to post by donwhite
 


Don White,


I don’t like the parole board system. A parole board member is asked to assess the inmate’s past, review his conduct during incarceration and from that to deduce what he or she will be most likely to do in the future. This sounds more like a resume for a financial adviser, say like Bernie Madoff?


LOL LOL Donwhite. You do like drama. Someone should have been reviewing Bernie Madoff precisely like this and checking his conduct against his resume.

again Don White,


IMO, instead of parole, early release ought to be straight forward and based on the inmates conduct in prison. Example: a 1st offender should get 3 days OFF his sentence for each day served without incident. A second offender gets 2 days off and the 3rd or more frequent repeater gets 1 day off for each day served. This is a simple method for early release and is totally fair and it gives the inmate on-going incentive to “act right” during his stay behind bars. Which is great for staff!


This should be done and determined by the individual states and their parole boards...looking at the crime, behavior while behind bars. and what a prisoner has learned while in prison. Not by your standards or "feelings."

Oh..by the way..you keep getting the cart before the horse over and over. I dont think you realize this while attempting to default through on what appears to be the moral high ground based on your "feelings." I am not sure many have ever succinctly pointed this out to you.

Here...

Which is great for staff!


This is not about the staff...it is about the public and the law. Got it yet??
It is about lawful..not legal..what the law is intended to do..in substance...not form. Legal is for politicians..lawful is for the public..substance verses form.

Prison is not for the staff....dont get the cart before the horse. Prison is for the protection of the public...for whom our leaders serve. Like many of what passes for leaders today you seem to get it backwards.
Its about the public ..not the staff!!!



I also favor a geriatrics rule. Any prisoner who attains age 65 and has served more than 5 years prior to his birthday, would have his sentence automatically cut in half but in no case would he be held longer than 50% of his life expectancy.


Feelings again..notice here..nothing about the crime committed or the nature of the crime and its effects on the public. Well done Don White..well done. Cart before the horse??


As for what other inmates think about a child molester, what does that have to do with anything. Who runs the prison? The state or the inmates.


Public schooling again..cart before the horse?? Even hardened criminals will draw the line on what they will tolerate. They may be criminals but many are husbands and fathers. Dont sell them to short here. They many be criminals and violent felons but many have and love their children. They will kill a child molester if the opportunity presents just on general principles.

Don White..you appear to be out of sync with not only much of the American public but with criminals as well..in lieu of your feelings.
Hence my usage of the cart before the horse concepts.


I’m having grave misgivings about the POST sentence treatment of sex offenders anyway. Proscribing where they can live. Making them subject to police interrogation at any time. Posting public notices about their past crimes. It is flagrantly against our long held legal customs and traditions.

All of that is also UNCONSTITUTIONAL. It violates due process. It ignores the amendments 4, 5, 6 and 8. You will profit if you read those. In similar circumstances in the past when I have complained that to do that you need to amend the constitution, having in mind my idea the citizens would not do such a thing, but now I’m not so sure about the citizens. Maybe it's better to hope that as soon as we can get a Supreme Court free of the Roberts, Kennedy, Alito, Scalia and Thomas types we can undo this mess and get back to basic justice in America.


I believe these guidelines and laws were put into effect because of repeats by many offenders. Did I miss something here?? Something you are not want to cover while "Feeling."

Once again this is for the protection of the public...general welfare. Not about these people..often out on parole. Once again ..the cart before the horse.

As to the Supreme court...it is fine. We are going to see soon what will happen in government by entitlement beliefs with this woman Sotomayor.recently appointed to the court. She is no friend of the general public..but of politicians and private interpretation...based on "FEELINGS." That much is obvious. She is also a textbook stereotyper as is very popular today among many politicians and college graduates. She is going to quickly put a mark on herself and the SCOTUS.


The grand standing dumb-ass super egotistical press-hound sheriff of Phoenix (Maricopa county) is Joe Arpaio. But what the hey, he’s in Arizona isn’t he? Very close to Texas


As I said Don White. Stereotyping. He is in Arizona and the people of Arizona seem to like him. They keep re electing him. I am not about to tell the people of Arizona how to run their affairs. I figure it is their business not mine. When people no longer like him or want him in office they will vote him out. It is obvious in contrast..that the people of Arizona have already had many of the other types and found them wanting. You do not seem to be able to bring this concept or whole picture to bear while stereotyping/feeling.


Well, as long as FOX and Rupert Murdoch can have protection from the First Amendment - free speech - but NOT free IRRESPONSIBLE speech - it will go on. If enough citizen viewers will write 1) to the sponsors and 2) write to their congressman, things will change. But that’s too much like work?


You have a big problem here Don White. The problem is that a large segment of the population of this country like Fox. Most of them could care less about Rupert Murdoch..much less know who he is.
I have also walked this earth long enough to know that the other networks are not satisfying the thirst of the general public.
We finally wound up calling CNN ...Chicken Noodle News. This was some 15 to 20 years ago. We knew what it was back then. I learned this from listening to short wave radio...even back then what a heavy paper curtain was over America.

However...I also know by still listening to shortwave and Amateur radio ...what a paper curtain is over American in news and informations. I do not think Fox is the all and everything and dont trust them any more than the other networks. For it is clear to me that Fox shills for its candidates just as do the other networks. I trust none of them.

As I have stated in my posts many times...the problems social engineers and politicians have is that the American public is not as liberal or left leaning as someone out here would like us to be in order to bring about the social change they would like. They would like to default through on it but the American public is not buying into it.


You have it backwards. The STATE level of justice is very poor, and is replete with graft and corruption not to mention incompetence. States are basically law and order courts offering hang’em high justice. Good justice is found only in the FEDERAL system and it is not found everywhere there. Justice in America is hard to come by.


I dont think so Don White. While I think the states have many problems, I dont think justice is to be found on the federal level. If this were so Mark Rich would never have been pardoned. I am waiting for Roman Polanski to get a pardon in due time.

Oh..by the way..while I am on the subject of defaults/feelings...It must have been racism ...why Chicago was not chosen for the Olympics...I cannot think of another reason.

I do not however think that the Olympic Committee would be doing Chicago any favors by bringing the Olympics there. Neither do I think the Olympic Committee will be doing Rio De Janeiro any favors by holding the Olympics there as well. History will tell this out.
May as well be strapping Rio De Janeiro with the United Nations. No difference in the outcome.


THanks,
Orange Tom



posted on Oct, 5 2009 @ 09:57 AM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 




Donwhite. You do like drama. Someone should have been reviewing Bernie Madoff precisely like this and checking his conduct against his resume.



When you hire the FOX to watch the hen-house, you are asking for trouble. AND TROUBLE WE GOT! Beginning with Ronald Reagan’s 2 terms in office, the US began to 1) dismantle the regulatory system and 2) reduce the staff of those that remained. The final straw on the good guys fell when Clinton signed Newt Gingrich’s repeal of the Glass-Stengel Law. That law segregated commercial banks from investment banks. That was the coup de grace and we were all set for the Great Debacle of 2007-08.

We cried like stuck pigs when we learned that Mattel was selling lead painted toys to our children. Suddenly parents wanted to know “where is the government?” Yes, there was a CPSC - Consumer Product Safety Commission - but under Reagan it had been stripped of staff, there being only ONE full time employee to inspect ALL the toys imported into America. ONE. And him with a broken down lab for testing.

When oil broke the $100 a barrel barrier, people asked “where is the government to stop the speculators?” yes, there was indeed a CFTC - Commodity Futures Trading Commission. It’s website says it has 400 employees (2008). Before Reagan it had close to 2,000. But since Reagan the futures market has grown 10 fold. But staff is cut by 80%. Hey, it’s Republican mantra - SMALL government GOOD, BIG government BAD. Or you get what you vote for.

I could go on. Like when the FPC - Federal Power Commission - was gutted, the price of natural gas rose 4 fold. Note: The FPC regulated the price of natural gas in interstate commerce. Under Reagan it became a record keeping agency. No regulations as that contradicts the FREE market.

I could go on. Before 1933, banks were forbidden by the rules known as Good Banking Practices, to loan more than 50% of a house to the potential buyer, owner-occupier. As the new housing industry is so central to a vibrant economy - every new house needs a new roof, new furnace, new kitchen, new bathrooms and so on; new houses support those other allied industries. So how can you stimulate the housing industry?

Another Democrats program, Government by Alphabet as the Republicans called it. The FHA. Federal Housing Administration. First they required 20% down payment and as that worked so well, the down payment was lowered to 10%. So how did America’s owner occupied home mortgage become the GOLD standard of debt around the world? Simple. The Federal Government INSURED the home loans. From 1933 until 1981 no investor ever lost ONE RED CENT on such a loan. Next best to GOD for dependability.

Every lender was guaranteed 100% return on his investment. Guaranteed. So who is to pay for this “guarantee?” Today of course, the taxpayers are the ones who get to pay. But under the Democrats, it was the BORROWER who paid. Yes, every FHA loan included an extra 0.5% was added for insurance. Your 4% bank loan cost the borrower 4.5%. But without the guarantee, the bank would not make the loan at 20% or 10% down payment. EVERYBODY WINS. That’s the difference between Democrats and Republicans. Under the Republicans, ONLY the RICH win!

That - the FHA - was followed on by the NEXT greatest thing the Government ever did. 1943. Passed the WW2 GI Bill of Rights. Among other things it allowed any veteran - 90 days service and an honorable discharge were required - and there were 16 million veterans, to buy a house WITH NO MONEY DOWN. With this proviso the American landscape was changed forever. The suburbs were invented. Which required interstate highways. And that all began in 1943. The same proviso - adding a half percent to the interest rate for insurance - was included int the GI Home Loans. THE GOLD STANDARD FOR DEBT. Which Reagan and Bush have permanently MUCKED-UP.

More later.



posted on Oct, 5 2009 @ 10:43 AM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 


“Which is great for staff.”

Guarding prisoners is not a happy job. Like most jobs, you do it because you need work and you need a paycheck. It is not glamorous nor is the career ladder all that rewarding. Nor is the pay all that good. My KY experience tells me the starting pay for a new guard is $18,000 per year. Top pay is $28,000 annually. Plus the state pays 80% of the family health care insurance. Plus 2 weeks vacation.

BUT no overtime is paid. State’s rights you know. The state does however give “compensatory time off” for overtime and presently, there is no limit on when you can take the time off; the minimum staffing requirements excepted.

So what’s it like to be a prison guard? Fist off, guards are not armed. Oh, there are guns close by, but guards do not carry guns. You must be on the alert 100% of the time. Prisoners have been known to throw a cup of pee on a guard, through the cell bars. Or an handful of feces. Like monkeys in a zoo will do. Probably for the same reason too, if we just think about it. And some prisoners will try to kill, usually another inmate but sometimes a guard or other staff.

It is almost 5th grade stuff but happy campers cause less trouble that unhappy campers. So you load the prisoners down with TV, weights and carbohydrates. In one jail I have visited the staff keep brown bags with a bologna and cheese sandwich and an apple in it. If a prisoner gets rowdy, they give him a brown bag. 99% of the time that resolves the issue. Which may be arisen over such elementary items as sharing a telephone from cell to cell. And etc.

From the government’s point of view, suppose it takes 4.2 guards to have ONE on duty at any given time. 40 divided into 168 hours per week. Suppose you nave 50 men in a cell block. You must always have TWO or more guards anywhere. Guards never work alone. Let’s say the standard for 50 prisoners is FIVE guards. But if you provide them with TV, decent food and fair treatment, then you can get by with FOUR guards per 50 men. Or you can be a jackass like Mighty Joe Arpaio, the genius of Arizona.

Aside: His radical system works - or so he says - he won’t give out records on recidivism - and taxpayers like it because it is cheap - because of several unique situations in AZ. Like climate. Like any human prefers to be outside rather than locked inside a miniature room. Like fairness. It seems that with the openness of the tent city that there can be little favoritism shown to “informers.” But it is quirky and unworkable anywhere else. AZ could sorely use term limits!

More later.



posted on Oct, 5 2009 @ 11:06 AM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 


I find this is very funny.

Some people complain about Mark Rich’s
pardon and they seem to not know the pardon was conditional. Rich had to submit to American courts for his victims to sue him in before the pardon would take effect. I do not know if he has or has not accepted the pardon.

The Bush Jr Libby commutation - no time to serve in jail - when we all suspect he, Libby, was the agent go between for Cheney and Bush Jr doing all their foul deeds like WMDs and Guantanamo Bay. 4,200 KIA in Iraq on Bush Jr's watch. Called 'Dumbya' by his friends.

Nor was Mr. Bush Sr. criticized when he pardoned Casper Weinberg (and 4 assistants) who was about to reveal that Bush Sr had lied about the Iran Contra scandal. Bush Sr was in charge. And poor old Ronnie Reagan who gave his BEST performance on the witness stand when he had TOTAL lapse of memory on every question asked about his role in Iran Contra. Pathetic was the best word to described Mr. Reagan.

But the pardon of Mark Rich? That’s got to be a FOX and Palin/Limbaugh Axis of Ignorance item!



posted on Oct, 5 2009 @ 08:54 PM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 




..It must have been racism . ..why Chicago was not chosen for the Olympics. ..I cannot think of another reason.



Unlikely. America is the only country I am aware of that is afflicted with racism. Copenhagen is not America. It’s our albatross. We can’t get over slavery and its consequences. I do hope the American experience will serve to see that it never happens again. It is truly ruinous.




the problems social engineers and politicians have is that the American public is not as liberal or left leaning as someone out here would like us to be in order to bring about the social change they would like.



Gosh! I wonder what social changes liberals want that the public does not want? Maybe like everyone gets a doctor if he is sick?

It is RED state types that want to DENY health care to persons who are here sans papers. Jeez, I thought you just automatically helped any fellow human if he or she was in need. I didn’t know you had to ask for their papers first. That’s definitely RED state thinking. I’m not a Christian but I do recall the story of the Good Samaritan. Maybe the RED state types have not heard that story? Or don’t believe it? Sounds like Jesus was a socialist?




I do not however think that the Olympic Committee would be doing Chicago any favors by bringing the Olympics there. Neither do I think the Olympic Committee will be doing Rio De Janeiro any favors by holding the Olympics there as well. May as well be strapping Rio De Janeiro with the United Nations. No difference in the outcome. However...



Duh! I don’t think the IOC is part of the UN.




I also know by still listening to shortwave and Amateur radio ... what a paper curtain is over America in news and information. thanks, Orange Tom



We get just what we deserve.



posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 02:17 AM
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www.smh.com.au...


Ex-inmate dies in crash - one month after leaving death row



A former US prison inmate who spent a decade on death row has died barely a month after being released from jail after a car accident, Texas police said on Monday.

Michael Toney, 43, died when he lost control of the car he was driving on a Texas road on Saturday and was pronounced dead at the scene, police said.

Toney received a death sentence in 1999 for his conviction in a 1985 car bombing which left three people dead.

He maintained his innocence over the years and was finally freed after a key prosecution witness in the case recanted.

A Texas Appeals Court ultimately overturned Toney's conviction, ruling that prosecutors had improperly withheld evidence, and he finally won his freedom on September 2, barely a month before the fatal accident.


Sad, sad days indeed. At least this man got to have his case reheard in a courtroom, many of those who are on death row do not get such chance. There are many horror stories of men on death row pleading for their cases to be reopened based on new evidence who are denied the right to defend their innocence - even some of the ones who can prove their innocence without a shadow of a doubt.



posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 08:31 AM
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reply to post by Kryties
 




Sad, sad days indeed. At least this man got to have his case reheard in a courtroom, many of those who are on death row do not get such chance. There are many horror stories of men on death row pleading for their cases to be reopened based on new evidence who are denied the right to defend their innocence - even some of the ones who can prove their innocence without a shadow of a doubt.



There seems to be something about the office of prosecutor that tends to corrupt its occupants. The “withholding” of evidence is so widely occurring that it must be part of the job description. Any prosecutor could AVOID that event by allowing the defense to have ALL their evidence.

Current court rules give some latitude to the prosecutor what to provide to the defendant. And that generally comes down to 1) what is legally exculpatory, and 2) what is legally not to be provided work product. Because people will always have differing views on that, to give ALL is the ONLY solution.

As President Clinton genuinely asked, “What does IS mean (in this context)?” Note: The Paula Jones Arkansas trial court judge had defined what SEX meant in that case and the answer to the question depended on how that definition was applied to Monica Lewinsky.

I personally would like to see the following THREE reforms in our lower court criminal trial system:

1)
A school for trial judges and prosecutors required before they take office. About 200 hours to start followed by 20 hours per year thereafter.

2)
Trial judges and prosecutors initially appointed by the Attorney General of the state from a list of eligible persons, but with the recall feature after 2 years and on a petition signed by 10% of the voters anytime. (Standard form petitions).

3)
Professional jurors. Jurors must understand the fine nuances of the law before they can reach an appropriate decision. Jurors must be able to leave their emotions at home. My city has about 770,000 people. I believe about 2,000 people would be needed for criminal court juries. I believe you could get enough volunteers to fill that number.

Then, a 200 hours course for jurors including practice at judging cases would give the part-time jurors a proper preparation for the huge task they are expected to perform. Jurors should be paid a flat fee. $200 for a misdemeanor case, $500 for a felony case and $1,000 for a death penalty case. In over-long cases - longer than 30 days - they should be paid that amount per month served.

Employers of jurors should be reimbursed by the State for the time they are off work and presumably a substitute was hired or the work divided among the other workers.

[edit on 10/6/2009 by donwhite]



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