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Death gets second chance after lethal injection botched

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posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 01:23 PM
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Originally posted by Kryties
Honestly then, what's wrong with sticking the child-killer in a locked 6x4 room with a small slot for food 3 times a day and no human contact? Complete and utter segregation from society and the general prison population.



POWs have said many times the greatest torture was isolation for a long periods of time, so you advocate the worst torture? Sometimes I'm ashamed to be reptile, oops I mean human.

Or maybe we are sick too and so you should give us the same understanding as you do this sick animal of a human.




posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 01:33 PM
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reply to post by Xtrozero
 


Fair enough, I hadn't thought that through properly, although that is easily remedied by allowing prison guards and hospital staff and other official's access to the prisoner for regular medical checks, fitness programs, bible lessons (if he should choose - and no I'm not religious I'm just making an example), educational lessons (nothing wrong with him making himself useful and learning a trade) and the list goes on etc etc etc.

Use your imagination. Not everything has to be "kill, kill, kill" like cavemen.



posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 02:09 PM
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This monster in human clothing murdered a child. This has been established in a court of law. So far as I can tell, with little to no question in the matter.

Now we come to the problem... Punishment for the crime. What's sufficient punishment for this crime?

Some would say imprisonment for life with no chance to ever get out...he's going to live behind walls for the rest of his life... OK, so far as it goes.

Others would say, kill him in just as horrific a fashion as he murdered this child... Not so OK...Punishment is intended as a deterent, either for the person being punished, or for others witnessing/learning of the punishment. Torturing the animal does nothing save damage the torturer, teaching the animal nothing.

Does he deserve death? Yes, indeed he does...swift and sure. His final judgement isn't up to us. Kill him if we, as a society, judge it necessary...but inflicting unnecessary pain does no one any good whatsoever. It only takes us to the level of the animal in question.



posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 03:06 PM
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That pesky 'cruel and unusual' punishment thing....

Justice. Justice would be putting this man in an explosive collar, then giving the man AS PROPERTY to the family of that girl. Then allowing them to do whatever the hell they saw fit.

Here in Texas, we have more executions than anywhere else. What a waste of resources. These death-row inmates can be used in experiments that are possibly lethal to gain a greater understanding of medicine and physiology. They could work for the government in labor camps as many of them have valuable, marketable skills. They could take the place of our soldiers on the battlefield and allowed to fight for their freedom. We could use them to test brainwashing, drugs, etc... We could take several hundred and truly find the limits of human endurance and pain! We could put them in a reality show, allow the government to sell these people to the networks for loads of cash so that they might exploit them for their own game and our entertainment!

With all of that in mind, the death penalty sounds quite a bit more humane, doesn't it?

Justice is about correcting a wrong. There is no justice in putting these people to death. Nothing is gained from it. But we are missing the opportunity to learn from them. They committed their crimes for a reason. We still have no idea what those reasons are. There is no solace for that girl's family. Putting this man to death will not restore her laughter to this world. Executing him won't see her continue on through school and become the woman she was meant to be. But, through this man, we might be able to prevent it from happening to others.

In this specific case, he apparently accepted his demise. He even tried to help the people trying to kill him. For that reason alone, I think he should be offered life in prison.



posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 06:04 PM
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reply to post by Arrowmancer
 




That pesky 'cruel and unusual' punishment thin g . . . .



America has the longest prison sentences in the world. We do not have less crime than any place in the world. Nor do we feel safer. We do spend twice the money others spend on holding prisoners “forever and a day.” About $24,000 per prisoner, per year. This is more than double what we spend on K12 education, about $10,000 per year, per student. That does not sound TOO smart?

I’m reading a good book, “Supercrunchers: Why Thinking By The Numbers Is The New Way To Be Smart” by Ian Ayres. Available used from Amazon dot com for $5.16 + s&h. He demonstrates by using the numbers that length of sentence has no measurable effect on recidivism which is the gold standard of prisons. So let’s get smart and go back to the saner, less vindictive and less costly criminal practices we employed in the 1970s before the world was turned black by the War on Drugs we started under President Nixon in 1969 who personally HATED the young ANTI War people.

We know how, we just don’t have the will to do it.


[edit on 9/20/2009 by donwhite]



posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 06:20 PM
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I've read and well understand the laws of criminal justice in the United States, as well as constitutional provisions regarding criminal justice. There's just too much room for interpretation.

Put someone with claustrophobia in a prison cell for 5 years, I would most certainly believe that this is cruel and unusual. I'd like to see how many claustrophbiacs (doubt that's even a real word lol) are actually in prison. I would imagine that a prison sentance would be worse than death for them and that they would walk the straight-and-narrow to avoid it.

For a highly religious person who kills his family in the name of religion, sending him to the table would be like telling him he's about to go home and be in the best place you can imagine. There is no punishment, there.

A standardized form of punishment is simply idiotic with a populace as diverse as ours is. In Texas, we have a fast-track program for death row. It's a sad truth, but if you kill someone here in Texas, as Ron White says, we'll kill you back. Everyone else is trying to put an end to death row, my state is putting in an express lane.

What would be the best solution? Immediate execution? Guilty!BANG no appeal process? Granted, jurors would take their frickin time to get it right when convicting the guy, but still... No death penalty? Allow these criminals to waste tax dollars and give so little in return? Not acceptable, either.



posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 07:44 PM
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Originally posted by Kryties



There is no form of torture that could compare to the torture of a baby who's been raped and killed by a grown man - NONE!


Let's get one thing straight.

It was a 14 year old girl not a toddler.



Okay I knew I missed it earlier. You are the hypocrite I have said all along and your care for the child does seem at a lower stage than the criminal and here is why.

You have over and over said I am hypocritical for placing a person who harms a child as something other than human. As I said physically he is but not mentally or socially.

But read your quote to another poster. Yes those are your words clearly placing a 14 year old girl on a different level than a toddler. They are both human according to your words towards criminals they both deserve the same respect. As that poster pointed out and as many of us have this man is on a different level though he is human he is no longer human in our eyes or that of NORMAL society. It should not matter if the girl were a toddler of 14 years old or even 50 according to your they are all human argument.

As another poster pointed out as well you posted this and asked for absence of emotion knowing this would be an emotional thread. You knew the answers you would get but started it to do nothing it seems but to criticize and belittle others by calling them monsters and how they make you ashamed to be human. You got the responses you wanted and then try to make it seem as if you are some being that is on a higher level and better than others. You have done nothing but play an emotional game (that you claim others are doing) this whole time.

This man does not deserve the quick death of a needle though I do take some joy in knowing he is all sad or depressed or scared for life because of what happened in the failed attempt. I will deal with my own emotions toward this person with a being higher than you. They are my emotions I stood by my original statements and still do. My maker knows I am human and that we experience high emotions that cause us to do “irrational” things. I am human I am emotional if that makes me a bad person so be it.

Have a nice day.

Raist


[edit on 9/20/09 by Raist]



posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 08:23 PM
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reply to post by Arrowmancer
 




(A) I've read and well understand the laws of criminal justice in the United States, as well as constitutional provisions regarding criminal justice. There's just too much room for interpretation.

(B) A standardized form of punishment is simply idiotic with a populace as diverse as ours. In Texas, we have a fast-track program for death row. It's a sad truth, but if you kill someone here in Texas, as Ron White says, we'll kill you back. Everyone else is trying to put an end to death row, my state is putting in an express lane.

(C) What would be the best solution? Immediate execution? Guilty! BANG no appeal process? Granted, jurors would take their frickin time to get it right when convicting the guy, but still. No death penalty? Allow these criminals to waste tax dollars and give so little in return? Not acceptable, either.



A) Recall the EU Constitution that was voted down first in Holland and then in Ireland? It was more than 300 pages in length. I have not tried this but I’d guess using 8.5 X 11 paper, and 14 point type, we could get all the US Con on 5 or 6 pages plus 4 or 5 more pages for the amendments. 10 pages or less. I prefer that system of laying down broad principles because it lets the judges ADJUST their interpretations to better meet the needs of the time.

B) Would it were so that life is so simple as Ron White sees it. We know it is not. Such observations as Mr White’s are either pure demagoguery or uninformed. IE, ignorant. Simplistic solutions to complex problems makes one vulnerable to being perceived as a simpleton.

C) In the late 1890s, historian Frederick Jackson Turner offered his hypothesis that the WESTERN FRONTIER was the major influence on the notion of American exceptionalism. Right or wrong, it is plain that all too many Americans still believe our country is exceptional. That we are the Biblical city on the hill, a light for others to follow. Even when they do not want to follow our instructions.

Keeping miscreants in custody is an unavoidable cost of doing business. We should stop doing it DUMB and apply ourselves so we can do it SMART.

[edit on 9/21/2009 by donwhite]



posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 08:41 PM
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reply to post by zazzafrazz
 


From page 6 of this thread.

I quote this to show the readers out here the failure of logic and reason in posts like this. This is what often passes for non emotion and reason while ceding to our passions often unnoticed ..by default ..as if it actually was reasonable...logical..even justice.

Watch how this works...and often defaults through unquestioned and unchallanged.


Its a sore point for alot of Australians that an innocent man died, so until the system is full proof, we dont want to risk killing somone else.


The problem here is that someone else was in fact killed but little mentioned. In this case hardly mentioned...but in passing. And this is hardly a sore point with some peoples. Only logic and reason can do this without most catching it while putting ointment on passions.

Have some of you readers got it yet...the illogic and ill reason passing for the moral high ground?

They are in fact willing to risk killing someone else...in a flawed system by flawing it further.

This feel good passionate need for ointment ..got so bad in this country that there were first degree convicted murderers being given furloughs for 48 hours and let go unsupervised and many did not return. Some went out and committed further crimes.

Only when it looked like it would diminish the re election chances of certain political parties was this trend changed. When public outcry became so heavy.

We are soon going to see this trend in illogic and illreason returning once again to pass for the moral high ground...with the same results.

Beware of what passes for non passion or logic and reason.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 09:00 PM
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It's this simple:

1. The citizens of the state of Ohio voted to allow juries to sentence certain convicted criminals to death.
2. The jury - made up of citizens of Ohio - came back with a sentence of death.
3. Your emotions that this is a human are of no consequence to this matter because the citizens of Ohio have doubly voted that this man should be put to death for his heinous crimes.

period.

You can wax eloquent and whine deeply, but this is a matter of law voted in by the citizens of Ohio and implemented by the citizens of Ohio. You have no say other than to voice your opinion. You've done that.



posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 09:08 PM
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reply to post by Kryties
 


The real question should be why did it take 25 years to try to execute this guy?

If the guy committed the crime then after the trial with appeals it should not

take more then 2 years at the most to execute him for this hanus crime. ^Y^



posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 09:11 PM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 


Id respond more to you but im not really sure what you are saying?

Anyway, Ill try....

My post was that the OP is from OZ.
He is entitled to be against capital punshment.
Australia voted to be rid of it.
Australia has cases of innocent people being put to death.
Australia chose to punsh not banish.
You can take up the logic of that with the country, not just me.

Show the OP how killing is punishing more than life in prison? We all die.
Show the OP how capital punishment is a deterrant for criminals in society.
Personally I am happy for them to be dead, but Im not going to kill them, so punshing them is fine by.

I differ with the OP not to do it because of cruelty. I dont care about that side for him. But if the state wants to kill instead of punish, thats their choice, but I can see by the way the OP was raised how he would not like capital punishment.

BTW maybe send youR regards to the families of the man hanged for a crime he didnt commit? And tell them his death was worth it because it means more criminals have APPARENTLY been deterred.....I'll send you a nice sceneted note paper to write your logic on.





[edit on 20-9-2009 by zazzafrazz]



posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 09:29 PM
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For child molesters that double as child killers:

Give a fully loaded Desert Eagle to the mother of the child and let her decide whether or not the slimeball lives or rots.


Alternately a purple wand could be given if the the mother just wants to cause pain instead.

It's cheap on ammo(or electricity), grants relief and a sense of revenge on the mother's loss.

If the mother doesn't want to do any of the above, other family members may be offered likewise.. likely starting with the father....

After the execution, simply bury the body in a 'yard' to grow food to feed the other prisoners.

Somehow, I know multiple someone's will cry over how 'cruel' that would be.. oh well...

[edit on 20-9-2009 by Crysstaafur]



posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 11:32 PM
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*waves* HI CHRYS!


Look, this is the same as racism, abortion, gay rights, etc... there are going to be opposing viewpoints. It's not likely either side is going to sway. No sense us arguing about something we can't change.

I could honestly care less whether the prisoner lives or dies in custody. My taxes are being wasted on his care, but if they weren't, the Suits will just waste it on something else. If they put a bullet in his head, it's not on my conscience, because 1) I didn't commit the murder he was sentenced for, 2) I've never had the chance to vote for or against the death penalty, 3) I've never been personally affected by someone who is has ever been on death row, and 4) I was not part of the jury that convicted him. Clear conscience. If I could vote, I would vote it down. I think that death row inmates are an exploitable commodity that can be forced to give back to a community they've taken from. In a perfect world, right?

As far as being vulnerable to being perceived as an idiot... I think not. I am many things. Curious, outspoken, thoughtful, hopeful to the point of naiveté, and a believer in what the US has always been. Freedom. I've never lost that, though many Americans have. Probably hopeless idealism, but it keeps me going. Curse it all you want. It's who I am.



posted on Sep, 20 2009 @ 11:50 PM
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reply to post by zazzafrazz
 


zazzafrazz,

Indeed the OP is from OZ. No problem with me on that. I also don't care if OZ has abolished the death penalty or not. That is a matter of Sovereign Governments...as is what happened or will happen in Ohio.

The killer here was not in OZ and neither are we. That law or sentiment does not apply here or in that place where this man was to be put to death.

Got it yet??

Passions or non logic, nor non reason do not make the world Oz. Do you understand this as well??

We too are entitled to our opinions and are wont to voice them and will do so.

Here ..this..tack..


I can see by the way the OP was raised how he would not like capital punishment.


Think this through carefully. Some of us are grown ups. We know we don't get the choicest morsels from the pot or table. We also know we as grownups often have to do things which are not pleasant and not the way we were raised. Are you getting the point here yet?? Grown ups know this and are able to live with it...not put the blame or responsibility on others.

Where is is written that someone in OZ is more civilized than other nations?? Is this entitlement thinking and values?? That someone is more entitled than others because they are want to label those who disagree with them as "Uncivilized??" This is exactly the tack our current crop of "Enlightened" politicians try to use on us to default through without debate,challenge or dissenting opinion. It is become quite predictable. It is also not an American position.

Entitlement thinking based on passions while hiding under the guise of logic and reason is quite the rage today.


Show the OP how killing is punishing more than life in prison? We all die.
Show the OP how capital punishment is a deterrent for criminals in society.


You are leaving out an important concept here. It is not just punishment. It is also prevention. That these convicted peoples do not go out and kill again. Why did you leave this out??

I think you meant to say capital cime criminals..criminals come in all types.
It is a deterrent in that these capital crime criminals do not go out and commit the same crime or similar on someone else. Most peoples of criminal bent...will back off if they realize they are facing serious injury or death. If they don't back off and intend to harm others to death..they need to be killed to prevent killing others. I think this is sometimes termed a sociopath.

When those three young men robbed me at gunpoint last year...the number one thing they voiced three times was did I have a gun. They were obviously worried about injury or death. Many criminals are content and very predatory as long as the prey is unarmed. Some are cold blooded murders. Fortunately most will flee from someone armed who can inflict injury or death upon them.

It is not complicated.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 03:00 AM
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Originally posted by Raist

But read your quote to another poster. Yes those are your words clearly placing a 14 year old girl on a different level than a toddler. They are both human according to your words towards criminals they both deserve the same respect.


Wow, and you took HOW LONG to come up with this? It's not even a very big point at that - I can imagine you probably spent all night picking apart my posts looking for any teeny-tiny widdle crack that you could slip through. That is a sad thing indeed.

Indeed, so much so that you missed the entire point of why I made that distinction. Yes, it is true that a toddler and a baby are both human beings and should be treated equally, BUT the poster I was talking to was attempting to use the baby story to elicit false emotion in a story that did not involve a baby. I felt the need to point out that a baby was not involved so as people did not feel false emotion for an event that did not happen.

So, now that we have cleared that up I guess you'll be back to the drawing board eh? What, maybe take you another 24 hours to come up with something equally as petty and completely wrong?

Good luck with that.


This man does not deserve the quick death of a needle though I do take some joy in knowing he is all sad or depressed or scared for life because of what happened in the failed attempt. I will deal with my own emotions toward this person with a being higher than you. They are my emotions I stood by my original statements and still do. My maker knows I am human and that we experience high emotions that cause us to do “irrational” things. I am human I am emotional if that makes me a bad person so be it.


That's OK, you are free to act like a caveman if you wish, I am not going to stop you. Oh and if you are going to talk about God then please be sure to read up on his thoughts about slaughtering our fellow man, or you are in danger of being even more of a hypocrite than previously thought.


[edit on 21/9/2009 by Kryties]



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 03:08 AM
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Originally posted by Kryties
That's a cop-out. I guarantee that at one point in your lives you have done something wrong and wished you had been given a second chance. Now before you go jumping down my throats saying "but I didn't kill a 14 year old", I don't care WHAT the hell ANYONE did. The beautiful thing about humans is their ability to change. It's not like the man isn't being punished - he would be locked up for the rest of his life.

Personally I think being locked in a cell 23 hours a day alone for the rest of my life is a FAR worse punishment than death.


We can forgive someone for having an affair and possibly even consider the possibility that they might learn what they did was wrong. In contrast, a murderer can turn over a new leaf a thousand times and his victims will still be dead. Give the victim's family some closure so they don't sit around thinking that the murderer of their child is alive and healthy.



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 03:12 AM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 


You can speak all you want of the death penalty being a deterrent, tell that to the INNOCENT people that were wrongfully convicted, slaughtered, then found to be innocent after the fact. What do YOU say to their families (and don't say that's not your problem - YOU voted the death penalty to stay it BECOMES your problem) huh? What exactly do you tell the family of that innocent slaughtered man or woman?

I can imagine your tail would be firmly implanted between your legs for starters....



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 06:59 AM
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reply to post by amari
 




The real question should be why did it take 25 years to try to execute this guy? If the guy committed the crime then after the trial with appeals it should not take more then 2 years at the most to execute him for this heinous crime.



Why 25 years? I don’t know. I’d guess he was not caught at once. The older a crime is, the more difficult and time consuming it is to prosecute. For a variety of reasons, almost everyone involved in the War on Crime (declared in 1933) prefers to deal with current problems, and not to dig up more work on something old and nearly forgotten. A cold case. It’s almost human nature.

The Supreme Court has established a much stricter set of rules for death penalty cases. To prosecute the same crime as an ordinary crime might cost $200,000. But to make it a death penalty case would raise the cost to at least $400,000. It is not unusual for a small town or a poor county to defer or forego a death penally trial because it cannot afford the prosecution.

Almost all DP defendants are indigent. IE, broke. That means the state (taxpayers) must pay for both sides of the case. Public Defenders (PD’s) are underpaid to start with. Very few PDs are DP qualified. For every “expert” witness the prosecution hires, the PD is entitled to one to off-set the other.

The number of pre-emptor challenges to prospective jurors is at least double the number in non-DP cases. That means a larger jury pool is needed. Many people do not want to serve on a jury. In my state jurors are paid $25 a day. If the jury is sequestered - kept overnight - then you have the hotel bill to pay. Because almost no one knows who is paying for this, all expert witnesses must be paid in advance. The number of court bailiffs may be double or triple the usual number.

The daily proceedings must be transcribed by the court reporter. This is on-going which is one reason the trial may be set for 10 AM and adjourn at 4 PM after a 1 hour or longer lunch break. There are fewer and fewer qualified court reporters. Unless they are on the state payroll - fewer and fewer every year - they also want not only $125 per hour in the courtroom, but want their pay as they go. You cannot trust the responsible government agency to pay its bills.

A 10 day trial may take the court reporter 2-3 months to transcribe into the record which is a MUST HAVE before the appeal can go forward. Some appeals courts and all supreme courts require the appeals be printed, usually in a 5 X 8 format booklet. With color photo exhibits and lengthy expert reports, and 30-40 copies needed, you may be looking at $20,000 or more for printing. Yes, it must be paid on delivery also. No credit thank you.

All judges have more cases than they can handle. Prosecutors come and go. PDs come and go. Rather than be amazed it takes 8-10 years for a normal DP appeal to run its course, the fact it can be done so “quickly” is the amazing fact!

Only the family of the victim is in a hurry.



posted on Sep, 21 2009 @ 06:59 AM
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reply to post by Kryties
 


If you want to apply logic, then you cannot base your entire argument on our severely flawed judicial system.

Logically, our government should reward the citizens that pay taxes and social security, or in the least contribute something to society; more than the citizens that only thrive on the pain and suffering of others.

Shouldnt all law abiding citizens be given food, clothing, and shelter with free utilities and a cot before violent, repeat offenders are even considered?

Logically, the benefits of incarceration would outweigh the costs. Now admittedly, one execution costs 2-3x of a lifetime incarceration. However, there is a simple alternative solution - Group Rates. According to your links it would cost ~700k dollars to incarcerate one prisoner for 40 years.

It would cost taxpayers 17.5 million dollars to house a mere 25 prisoners (presently there are over 2 million in prison). Now 25 executions for 3.2 million dollars looks like a deal!

Logically, our prison system would seek to rehabilitate a prisoner to become a normal (however you define normal) and productive (or at least non-criminal) member of society, but statistically, non-violent prisoners tend to become violent offenders after being incarcerated with violent prisoners which is not conducive to rehabilitation. In an ideal world, violent prisoners would be separated from the non-violent.

Conclusion: Prison itself has no longer become a deterrent due to gang affiliated social networks to the point of becoming trendy for the "street cred" alone. Working 40+ hours a week for 30 years and living off social security only to die a shivering, cold death during the hard winter because you couldnt afford your heating oil after the price skyrocketed doesnt look as appealing.

Violent offenders? Kill 'em all. It doesnt take a genius to predict that someone who enjoys the infliction of pain and suffering on others, will continue to do so. If your dog repeatedly bites you and may seriously injure you or someone else in the future, it is your duty to euthanize your pet. Repeat violent offenders are the same as dogs and I hate to quote (or misquote) a movie but, "Humans get arrested. Dogs get put down."

As for costs, give every single state and federal penitentiary a $500 gift card to home depot and I'm pretty sure someone on site can build something sturdy to hang a rope (and Disney World can design the never ending human corrals with the sharp turns to make you think you almost reached the end only to be disappointed just like Space Mountain.) If death is the final journey then lets belt out a "Bon Voyage" and hoist a pint while taking out the trash.

Lastly, the money that could potentially be saved by ridding society of the animals with no redeeming qualities, our penal system can focus on rehabilitating prisoners instead of creating them while also providing more money for our educational system to prevent people from being sent to prison in the first place.



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