Depression is an Evolution not a Malfunction

Just popping back into this thread to mention a book I read years ago. Wish I could remember the title, but I think it might be 'Left Brain, Right Brain'. If I get a chance, I'll try to dig it out.

Anway .. the book was very popular in its day, written by scientists.

It claimed that males go through several 'washes' of male hormones, the critical and most powerful occurring during puberty.

The heavy concentrations of male hormones at puberty (it was claimed) 'set' the male brain into maleness, which in turn can trigger depression in some cases (brain chemistry, for want of better term)

I suspect this was the case with my son .. it's the reason I bought the book after reading the reviews

Situational depression of course, can afflict anyone, depending on their circumstances and their ability to change them. For example, it's perfectly normal for someone to become depressed upon losing their job or a loved one, or after moving and losing touch with friends, upon being afflicted with a medical condition that limits quality of life and so forth.

Just a guess here, but with regard to the brain-chemistry element .. I suppose it's possible that females with higher than normal levels of male hormone could also suffer depression unrelated to their life circumstances

reply to post by St Vaast


I think that is based on older psychology when docs used to say woman could only be bi-polar and men a manic depressant. Newer psychology combines bi-polar and manic depression into one now. That means they have new dynamics for it.

Now they also have unipolar state, which is depression without the mania or symptoms of being bi-polar.

Being diagnosed with MDD means that it is scientifically impossible for a person with MDD to be schizoid to any degree. I thought this thread might find this point of interest.

Enjoy

I suffer from depression and have done for years and it is true what the OP has posted. I do now have an anayltical mindset and have to analyise everything. My problem now is how to deal with my depression as i will always suffer from it as i know why i am depressed and that makes me depressed.....

reply to post by Calon


I can say you've got something there!...I know someone who is much (too much) like myself, I *feel* other's happiness, saddness etc. She does to, it's really a wild thing with us together how we feed off each other...though admittedly the down times are REALLY rough, it's like shadow boxing, but the shadow punches back!

It is (at least to our example) true that Empaths care more for others than themselves...and you see my reasoning for that is, I live through YOUR happiness, so if there's something I can do for you to make YOU happy...then I in turn in some weird way am HAPPY.

(if that makes any sense to you)

I can't wait to show her this thread...it's like when I read that post on Highly Sensitive People (more or less describing empaths again).

Don't try and change how an empathic person thinks/feels about themselves...it will only piss them off, don't you think we'd change if we could?

Originally posted by dzonatas
There is one problem with depression, and that it keeps one unemployed. I don't clinical depression, as I mean major depression. It's the difference between where one can say 'just get over it'... and where one find themselves a zombie all day because they can't function no matter what they are in thought about. I find most people don't understand this difference. I didn't understand it until I was diagnosed myself. Anti-depressants don't work.

Wish jobs would adapt/evolve along with this evolution!

Note that I've read some responses above and, sadly, they assume clinical or lesser depression.

I've seen the article the OP posted in other forums... I was like YES! finally some scientific proof of not being able to function and why. To me its like the body just can't handle the speed of thought I have. It gets overloaded and becomes depressed -- goes zombie -- doesn't function -- yet I'm still alive inside -- lost. This is a physical thing, it isn't some simple emotion that can be work over and done away with. It's disabled me for the past few years now.

[edit on 27-8-2009 by dzonatas]

100% agree with this, it's what I've been dealing with since high school (major depression). I agree that anti depressants don't work; at least they don't work for me. The 'condition' disables you and your whole body and brain feels numb. Again, I agree with you that most people can't separate depression with feeling down. They are different things.

I fail to see what benefits depression can bring to a person, as this study claims.

I am a sensitive person and tend to think about others more than myself, and I do over analyse things going through my head. But I was like that before the depression disabled me anyway, so it's probably just making the situation worse.

I'm not a depressfest type of person. I'm actually pretty happy go lucky. Anyone is capable of deep ruminations and when you are in a positive state of mind your cognitive functions perform much better. A positive frame of reference, studies have shown time and time again, has a much higher increased chance of success in any endeavor. On the contrary, a depressed person may "ruminate" but more often than not their deep thinking is so riddled with circular thinking that they cannot see past what is afflicting them to attack the problem from different directions. A depressed mind is more shut down, the thoughts are weighed down with doubt, pity, woe and this leads to the type of circular thinking is not productive. It has been demonstrated time and again that positive thinking, outlook and perception is beneficial to thought, health and overall wellbeing.

I think this article falls short in that regard.

What a stretch this. I and many people in my family know depression, and insomnia.

I believe the people who are proposing this have it backwards. Depression doesn't make people do better on tests or figuring problems. People who suffer from depression tend to be analytical, deep thinking people in the first place.

I believe that's one of the personality traits that contributes to depression, the fact that we are already very analytical thinkers, we think too damn much.

As a side benefit we're probably better at solving problems, figuring things out, but that is not something that comes from the depression itself, it's a characteristic personality trait shared by many people who suffer from depression.

I don't know how a persistent feeling of grief, not wanting to live, suicide, could be seen as a beneficial evolutionary process.

I also wanted to add that people who suffer from depression are more prone to, vulnerable to some of these things:

1. Use drugs and alcohol
2. Over eat
3. Tend to get sick
4. etc.

Evolution? I would say de-evolution.

My point is that is not biological evolution. Depression is an illness, evolution tries to weed out organisms that are not the fittest of their kind.

Anyone here ever study college level bio, ecology or sociology?

[edit on 28-8-2009 by Electro38]

reply to post by St Vaast


That's very sad to hear about your son St Vaast. Any soul caught in that horrible cycle is a real loss for themselves and society. I believe that there are different types and causes as well as grades of depression. I was hospitalised years ago with depression as a kid. I went throught the gamut of available drugs and they only made me quit feeling altogether. Eventually ( after 3 or 4 years) it seemed like I "outgrew" depression. it just went away. I kept working the entire time and eventually found a woman to marry and had kids.
I want to ask you a question: has your son ever established a relationship with a woman? If not, I think you're answer is right there. Given that he has kept to himself all these years it may be very hard, but not impossible to get out into the field and meet women.
You said all your efforts to help have failed. I know a lack of sunlight will depress anyone. Outdoor activity has been my lifeline. I think your father was wise to suggest strenuous outdoor work. It's cleansing to sweat and feel the breeze on your body. The more removed we are from nature the farther we are from the real source of all life. Nature has been my lifeline thoughout while I lost my first wife and went through the grieving process. Depression nearly got ahold of me again and I did have to fight against it actively. I've remarried and I'm happier now than ever even though I have a chronic illness that prevents me from working.
You need to get you son outside doing vigorous activity like hiking or camping. He needs to reconnect with both nature and society at large again. Keeping him inside and allowing him to fester inside his own smallcircle is not helping him. He may protest but for his health it looks like you may have to push. There's a big world out there full of both good and bad but he must get out into it. If he doesn't, then I guarantee that he will be lost for good.
Good luck and strength to you and your son. You can both do it - he will need support every step of the way until he learns to walk on his own again. He sounds like a great person, don't deny the world such a great asset, we need all the good people out here we can get!

reply to post by Electro38


not true it is true i use drugs to cope with my depression coz if i didnt i would go insane....but as to the other things absolute bs i never ever get sick i dont over eat .i dont drink alcohol whatsoever....
So please dont post crap.....

[edit on 28-8-2009 by loner007]

Originally posted by merryxmas
I think this article falls short in that regard.

I don't think you understand the difference between clinical depression, dysthimia, and being unipolar.

People with clinical depression and dysthimia may be able to get over the emotional down by being able to change their mood. That is not true with people who are unipolar. Those who are unipolar could have the most positive mind in the world and still be affected.

We need people to understand that because too often those who are unipolar have been mistreated. These article references in the OP help with those differences.

It is not as simple as you think.

If one is being able to be stuck in thought about suicide, then at least they are 'functioning'. In the case of someone who is unipolar, they wouldn't be stuck in thought of suicide because their brain wouldn't function in such a loop. Not being able to think at all is much different from being able to think about something.

So what do people 'not being able to think' do? They learn over time to think about simple things, just like the article points out. It is simple things that help people who are unipolar to be able to think. Over time, they get good at it. They learn to avoid the complex thins because that makes their brain go back to the 'not being able to think' mode -- zombified.


[edit on 28-8-2009 by dzonatas]

I guess this study helps explain the ongoing correlation between someone universally considered to be a genius (whether they be an artist, writer, scientist, whatever) and the occurence of some mental/mood "disorder". It could be that they are smart to begin with and end up overanalyzing things to the point of depression or madness but its also possible they were "normal" at one point and upon being afflicted with some kind of sadness, they become a genius due to their overdwelling on the topic they end up focusing on.

One real down fall for this is that people filled with depression and pent up anger have a higher capacity for complex thought. So, by default, a serial killer or mass murderer is going to have well thought out plans to achieve their goal. Despite the good intention of this adaption, it has its modern downfall (just like the evolved ability to store fat to fend off long periods of time without food).

This was likely evolved in primative man when problems really were life and death. Not every problem was an acute one that could be solved with instincts while all hyped up on adrenaline for a short period of time. This helped them in the sense that once they became hopeless on a matter that was urgent but prolonged, they began thinking more intently as a last resort to solve it. The more we learn about the brain the more amazing we find it to be.

[edit on 28-8-2009 by Eitimzevinten]

Originally posted by loner007
reply to post by Electro38

 

not true it is true i use drugs to cope with my depression coz if i didnt i would go insane....but as to the other things absolute bs i never ever get sick i dont over eat .i dont drink alcohol whatsoever....
So please dont post crap.....

[edit on 28-8-2009 by loner007]

I went and edited my post, because I apparently left out some key words which could benefit the lesser educated people here.

If you study depression you will learn through countless studies over many years, that a lot of people who suffer from depression tend to (or are more prone to) drug abuse, alcoholism, suicide, over eating/obesity, and are more prone to illness due to a lower resistance to disease, compromised immunity. Do you really need to read clinical studies to know this?

How can any of those things I've listed be a biological benefit of evolution? They are not.

Please educate yourselves before automatically buying into everything you read.

[edit on 28-8-2009 by Electro38]

reply to post by Electro38


The things you mentioned are side effects of depression i will agree for other people but its not a sterotype as i said the only thing that is true is taking drugs ...why to make me feel better....
the evolution point dosent come from these side effects the point is depressed people become analylitical in their thinking breaking down problems into smaller pieces. This is because feeling depressed isnt what you want to feel you want to feel happy. So having an analylitical mindset allows you to think on what is causing you to be depressed and create a solution to break free from it. As I said in a previous post I have solved my depression I know what is causing my depression and the cause isnt something i can change because the problem dosent lie with me. Even though I know the cause I still suffer from depression and i have to live with it.

Originally posted by Electro38
How can any of those things I've listed be a biological benefit of evolution? They are not.

The assumption you have made beyond an obvious implication is that the blame for such breach of vulnerabilities goes to those affected. That is actually the common assumption made by those that only sit back and read the after effects and don't get into the reasons why such vulnerabilities exist.

The article is nothing new to those who are affected. The article represents something that has finally got weight in science. These are vulnerabilities that has been known for awhile, just as you write, and these abuses have been known. That abuse is more-so by those not affected onto those that are affected. The articles in the OP represents a bit a freedom -- a bit a freedom away from being so vulnerable.

Where once people have been seen as 'not normal' and thus have been thought to need treatment -- they are being seen as a bit more normal.

How could people pray upon such vulnerability in order to... abuse it selfishly. For example, how many drug companies would love to get another prescription written on anybody, especially when that drug company is the only one that has a patent for that drug. That is money in the drug company's pocket, and that could be money in the pocket of the person who writes the prescription. Should we jump down the rabbit hole to really explore how selfish and abusive this gets? I can site reports how doctors thank the courts for every individual forced to go get some kind of medical evaluation, especially where that person that gets forced to get the evaluation also has to pay for it. The insurance doesn't cover such costs because court ordered evaluations aren't on the DSM titles, not even title IV. Consider that court ordered eval's are no excuse, that should be pretty damn suspicious. These go on, however, almost unnoticed from the public eye.

Now, people like in this thread come along and say 'just get over it'.

And, other people come along and list how depressed people are fat, drug abusers, yada yada.

Who is the victim here?

Once you realize there is a victim, then maybe you'll evolve.

[edit on 28-8-2009 by dzonatas]

haha I was right all along. I always said I would never change myself because I like who I am. And who I am is a severely depressed, yet highly intelligent person. To an earlier poster, the beacon of light? It's depression. You mean the beacon of darkness that shall herald in a new age of prosperity!

Originally posted by Mr. Toodles
haha I was right all along. I always said I would never change myself because I like who I am. And who I am is a severely depressed, yet highly intelligent person. To an earlier poster, the beacon of light? It's depression. You mean the beacon of darkness that shall herald in a new age of prosperity!

You and nine-eyed-eel crack me up!

Been to depression. David Spade, central controller of the mall subway train system ironically quipped that he never would have thought I was a country boy.

Bad wolf!




[edit on 8/28/2009 by EnlightenUp]

reply to post by Electro38



You suggest de-evolution

it seems that way to me, also


I feel the suggestions that analytical thinking is a positive to be drawn
from depression is clutching at straws and attempting to make a virtue
out of a condition which has negative impact on the sufferer's life and the lives of those around him/her

Analytical thinking is not the sole province of the depressed, obviously

Further, most thought processes of the genuinely depressed revolve around the person themselves. It's a form of obsession with self.

Rather than encourage it and attempt to portray it as a positive, methods need to be discovered which will break the depressed person's obsession with himself

reply to post by merryxmas

Anyone is capable of deep ruminations and when you are in a positive state of mind your cognitive functions perform much better. A positive frame of reference, studies have shown time and time again, has a much higher increased chance of success in any endeavor.

On the contrary, a depressed person may "ruminate" but more often than not their deep thinking is so riddled with circular thinking that they cannot see past what is afflicting them to attack the problem from different directions.

A depressed mind is more shut down, the thoughts are weighed down with doubt, pity, woe and this leads to the type of circular thinking is not productive.I think this article falls short in that regard.

Couldn't agree more !

Excellently phrased post

And cuts through the waffle like a knife through butter !

Well said

Originally posted by St Vaast
reply to post by Electro38

 

You suggest de-evolution

it seems that way to me, also


I feel the suggestions that analytical thinking is a positive to be drawn
from depression is clutching at straws and attempting to make a virtue
out of a condition which has negative impact on the sufferer's life and the lives of those around him/her

Analytical thinking is not the sole province of the depressed, obviously

Further, most thought processes of the genuinely depressed revolve around the person themselves. It's a form of obsession with self.

Rather than encourage it and attempt to portray it as a positive, methods need to be discovered which will break the depressed person's obsession with himself

I concur. Hey, I'll tell ya there is nothing good about clinical depression, the illness. It is a horrible thing for the inflicted and their family/friends.

If some scientists are trying to say, in some convoluted way, that clinical depression is somehow good for the evolution of man I say bull#! Happy people thrive, just look around you.

Happy people exercise, do not over eat, do not drink in excess, do not usually abuse drugs. Usually happy people have happy families. People who laugh are healthier.

I have suffered with bouts of depression since 1979. Many people in my family also suffer.

We are not more analytical because we are depressed. Maybe because we are very analytical we are more prone to depression. This is my belief. And as my friend has said, it could be a form of auto-obsession, narcissism which can exacerbate the depression.

But I do know that there is nothing good about depression. The process of evolution does not reward organisms or individuals of a species who are ill, who can not cope, who are sad.