Depression is an Evolution not a Malfunction

Reply to post by Geladinhu


Perhaps you're unaware of just how many in society (including those who've contributed to this thread) did and do suffer depression ?

I do understand the thrust of your argument. And no doubt you're sincere in all you say.

However, there are those of us who've spent many years in deep depression, clinical and situational. Some of us have been institutionalised as consequence of the condition. There are very few of us who are not familiar with depression.

In fact, of the many hundreds of individuals I've known and met, I am unable to pinpoint even one of them who hasn't suffered periods of depression, whether they be children, the very elderly and all those in between

We are also aware of how depression is often rationalised, justified, sensationalised, glamorised and even portrayed as 'useful' and indicative of 'special' characteristics and abilities.

Many of us have justified and rationalised our own depression. Many of us have felt ourselves and our situations AND depression to be utterly unique and worthy of extra attention and recognition.

Of course we have --- it's what provided the excuse to remain shackled by depression, rather than adopt other coping-methods.

For example, at age nine, I planned and executed a serious suicide attempt. I planned it. I crawled into a large pit destined to be a septic-tank for a block of apartments. The following day, the tank was to be completed. I knew there was little reason for me to be discovered prior to the final sealing. It was my intention to be entombed. I took a razor blade into the pit.

Do you imagine 9 year olds don't go through a great deal of contemplation and analysis before planning their own death ? I can assure you, they do. And it goes on for months or weeks beforehand. The only thing that got me out of that pit was the fact the razor blade hurt a lot more than I'd expected. During those moments of cutting myself, it hurt more than my mind did. The sense of failure and disappointment in my own cowardice hurt, too. I explained it as a cut caused by rusted tin and was taken to hospital for tetanus shots and stitches. No-one suspects a child of attempted suicide

At 13, I could barely lift my head, I was so depressed. It seemed to me as if I were trapped in a parallel universe. Colours were weird .. the sky, sunshine, people, buildings seemed to have oddly coloured 'borders' around them. I couldn't relate to those around me, although I did a good job of pretending (for other's sakes). Everything seems like cardboard cut-outs, fake, shallow, pointless, meaningless. I felt older than my teachers and parents. I wondered at the way they carried on with their lives .. as if they were unaware of how meaningless it all was. People performing stupid antics with their hair and clothing styles .. as if it MATTERED. People arguing in private and then going out in company as a couple and pretending to be 'happily married'. Exams .. when people's worth can't be measured that way, yet their lives and futures ARE dependent on scores.

The boy who lived on a farm, for example. Parents useless, their brains gone bye-bye. That boy worked the farm before and after attending school. He was intelligent. Everyone knew it. But with everything going on at home and all the work he had to do .. he didn't have time or a room in which to study for exams. At final exams, he didn't make the cut.

There were teachers who KNEW the kid could have waltzed through exams if he'd had opportunity. Other teachers of course were simply bodies in classrooms, picking up their pay, unaware of the fly on the end of their own nose. But those teachers who SAW the boy's potential .. they walked away from it. There were lots of kids. They weren't being paid to save those who dropped through the net. They picked up their pay, went home, didn't save him, didn't care. I cared, and he didn't even know me.

Corruption going on all around. If I could see it, why didn't others ? Ah .. but we get older and realise they DID see it .. just didn't care about it .. were part of it .. were content to be part of it .. VIED for the opportunity to be part of it.

By the time I left home at 17 and for close to 10 years afterwards, depression was my closest 'companion'. I've posted about it before. I ended up taking the medication. It nearly put me in the ground. It DID put me in an insitution, briefly. So then there was me and myself and the knowledge that I was going to have to rebuild myself from the ground up. No-one would care if I didn't. I wasn't overly enthusiastic about continuing this bloody awful existence. But it's not considerate to others to exit, leave the carcass for others to dispose of, force others to provide 'reasons' for what would be considered the 'premature exit'. Didn't want to lay the guilt trip on anyone.

I knew I had to quit this indulgence, this depressed state. Up to me to 'fit in', deal with the cards I'd been dealt, accept what I couldn't change, etc.

By then I had all sorts of problems, agoraphobia being but one. Couldn't walk properly. Was having paranormal experiences all over the place. Didn't know the names for any of these things. Just knew I had to put one foot ahead of me, then follow with the other foot, over and over. Get moving. Get out of my own head. Look around. Look up. Look sideways. Look behind. Look OUTside myself. See all the others who were doing exactly the same thing, one way or another.

Sure .. I had every kind of reason to be depressed. No question. Analyse? I analysed as I breathed. A lot of it was good stuff, too. But the world went on. It wasn't interested in what I had to say. The world was bigger than I. It's bigger than you. It's bigger than all of us. Millions have trodden these paths before us. And now they're dust. Millions of tons of dust. And the world keeps on, and people arrive and depart. Because that's the Plan. It's not my plan, not yours, not the other person's. We arrive, we live, we depart. Few of us leave anything of note behind us. WE think we've had new thoughts. But everything old becomes new again. We flatter ourselves. Yes, we do.

You talk about 'new consciousness'. Do you know how MANY, before you, have said the same? Do you know how LONG that kind of talk has been around ?

Right now (and a million times before) there's talk of an 'awakening', of 'evolutionary shift'. Same thing. Do you know HOW many times it's all been said and claimed before?

A lot of it is being orchestrated. It sells books and videos too, of course. This 2012 'event' and the ridiculous explosion of reported 'alien/UFO sightings' are a real money-spinner, as well as part of an agenda (imo).

But it's all happened before. And it will happen again. People will devote years of their lives, and their money and energy to it. People right now are building Arks. Others are waiting for the 'return' of this or that guru/god/goddess/alien, etc. They believe in what they're doing. They believe. It gets them through.

Depression can get people through, too - or golf, cookery, pottery classes, drugs, alcohol.

Evolution of consciousness ? There's no evidence. As I've already said, there's been no cultural evolution, either. We're still burying our dead with flowers and tears, just as they did thousands of years ago. The only evolution has been technological. Culturally, spiritually, we're a hair's-breadth from melt-down, as always. It could tip at any moment. And THAT is depressing and it depressed me in the past and nearly buried me.

You believe that being depressed provides you valuable insight which will save/change the world ? To be honest, I don't see any positive result emanating from your 'insights'. I see anger .. at anyone who questions your claims

Originally posted by Shaddowkhan
pretty cool stuff.

but isn't sleep apnea when you stop breathing during your sleep how can that be a good thing.

just sayin

S&F

Yeah, I also have sleep apnea. You wake up (if you survive your sleep), you wake up feeling more tired than when you went to sleep!

Maybe that plus depression is making me a better person somehow. I am creative, but you spend a lot of time being depressed and waiting, and then the creative thing comes like a jolt and then it fades quickly.

I think depressed creative people are good for society, because we are usually a societies artists, musicians, painters and poets. But good for the evolution of man? I don't know.

Maybe I should discard all of the stuff I learned in college about evolution. I'm starting to get on board with this, I want us to become the survivors of the future, very sad and creative people could make the world a very interesting place.

reply to post by Electro38


I think the point of the study is good but the way they interpreted it is wrong.
They figured out that people who are depressed are more intelligent basically.
But they mistakenly concluded that people were more intelligent BECAUSE of the depression when in reality its just the opposite, they become depressed because they are intelligent. And why is that? Because in our society that praises the ignorant the intelligent are forced to become self-immersed as to preserve their "gift" or evolutionary factor. It feels so bad because we are thrown against our instincts.

You can call it sadistic if you want. But then you'll have to realize that nature in itself is sadistic. Evolution occurs on top of the suffering of some individuals, death is necessary so that life may exist. You may call the existence of death sadistic, I'd prefer to call it simply natural or even necessary.

Depression is helping human evolution by preserving distinctness. If depression didn't arise as a massive condition in our species we would cease to become a unit in constant change and progression. Just check out the masses being totally controlled without having their own contribution to our social, cultural and environmental structure and the elite that chooses stagnation because of their greed. By having depression as a constant influential factor our diversity is stimulated to perpetuate, almost like a gene pool but we are transcending the physical (biological) aspect of ourselves and going straight to consciousness which can do much more dramatic change if better utilized and understood.

If we didn't have forces within ourselves obligating us to become self-immersed we would be easily zombified and consequently discharged as a potential individual for the entire evolution of the species by any character with manipulative ideals.

reply to post by Geladinhu

I think the point of the study is good but the way they interpreted it is wrong. They figured out that people who are depressed are more intelligent basically. But they mistakenly concluded that people were more intelligent BECAUSE of the depression when in reality its just the opposite, they become depressed because they are intelligent. And why is that? Because in our society that praises the ignorant the intelligent are forced to become self-immersed as to preserve their "gift" or evolutionary factor. It feels so bad because we are thrown against our instincts.

NOW you're getting to it, imo

second line

In 06 I walked about 500 miles of the Appalacian trail. I lost a lot of weight and was in great shape. I was walking mountains 8-10 hours a day and living in open shelters or the tent I carried. No radio,tv,cars,news...I was separate from the "real" world but I was really very happy. It was like I was awake for the first time in my life.

I left the trail because a situation outside of my control caused me to have to change my plans and go back to work. I was back in the real world for just a few days and was depressed. It got worse and worse for weeks. I came to the conclusion that my body and subconscous were trying to tell me that they don't like this way of life. It took a long time but I realized that this was the truth and accepted the fact. I am still in the real world but am working on plans to go back and finish the trail and am working on a career change that will allow me to at least return to some of what I miss so much.

Depression definitely forced me to consider a serious change in my values but it wasn't easy. I think it puts us into a state where many things that we usually worry about don't really matter any more. It is a way of clearing out the unimportant clutter and getting down to the heart of the issues that we bury with everyday life.

reply to post by St Vaast


You gotta be kidding that you ended that discourse stating that I'm the one with anger.

Do you realize what you just said? "This is bull#, it was always bull#, it will always be bull#. Why are you so angry"?

Who is really trapped in self-absorption here? Your son? Think again.

I'm sorry, but I don't even know what to say to you anymore.
You seem like you are still that 9 year old girl that thinks she knows more then everyone else, attempted suicide and never thought about it anymore because the razorblade hurt more then her mind.

I don't mean to offend you, please don't take what I'm saying personally. I'm only changing my way of speaking because you keep hitting the same note over and over so I'm trying a more drastic method now. I'm just being a mirror and showing you how you are behaving.

You seem so sure about so many things. And still you are here looking for answers, aren't you not? Because suddenly it looks like you are preaching and trying to pass on your absolute assurance that we are not walking towards the good. C'mon now. I beg you once again, stop being so driven by your emotions.

All you can see is negativity, not because the things you see are in fact negative but because your attitude towards them are negative.

I don't want to continue this discussion with you because I always have to stop talking about the topic of the thread and start talking about your attitude. Please stop being afraid of yourself and start looking inside.

[edit on 29-8-2009 by Geladinhu]

Reply to Gelinadhu




See what I mean. The moment anyone questions YOUR assertions, you fly off the handle .. you utterly lose control

over and over again


Then you're in with the ridicule and character assassination


You attribute to other posters statements they have NOT said


In short, you deliberately MININTERPRET other's posts


You attempt to PERSONALLY discredit anyone who fails to support your theories


You WILL NOT tolerate anyone else's opinions

You interpret ALL OTHER opinions as 'criticism' of yourself

Yet you freely criticise AND insult others


Then you try to haul yourself back with a bit of insincere pontification


To me ... you operate EXACTLY like the Scientologist in the current scientology thread


That's ego, you know. It's an immature temper tantrum


And ego is NO part of 'evolution', conscious, spiritual or otherwise


Take a GOOD look at yourself, huh ?

(and while you're at it .. take a look at one of your posts not that far back, where I starred you and posted positive response)

Oh, and by the way, did the Mods give you licence to dominate this thread and to 'disallow' anyone who might have theories and opinions different to your own ?



[edit on 29-8-2009 by St Vaast]

reply to post by St Vaast


Please, oh please. Lets start being rational. Women and emotions, hard to deal with.

I'm sorry, apparently I was too harsh cause you didn't even stop to think about what I said and came right back at me.

If you at least were contributing with arguments against my assertions I would be glad to stop talking about you and start talking about your ideas. But you come here and only start talking about yourself and how you disapprove of what I say without any reasoning to back you up. You are not sharing ideas here, you are only sharing personal experience. So how can I even address your ideas if you don't make them present? I need to address the only thing that you are sharing with us, yourself and your experience.

You just come to me and say that you disagree. You don't even care to try to prove me wrong. You just say that you think I'm wrong and then I'm forced to re-state my ideas over and over hoping that eventually you will come with some ideological reasons to explain why you disagree but the only thing you seem to be able to talk about is your personal experience.

My ego is not in this thread, I don't care if you don't believe me. (And as some say, only the ego would try to discredit itself). Depression is a serious matter for me and I'm trying to figure this out without letting my personal bias come in the way. You are not helping with trying to figure out what depression is really about, you just want to have your beliefs asserted.

Well, yes. The mods allowed me to discuss and share my opinion and perspectives. I believe thats what ATS is all about, isn't?

[edit on 29-8-2009 by Geladinhu]

You do realize that all you are talking about is yourself, right?

[edit on 29-8-2009 by Geladinhu]

reply to post by Geladinhu



'Women's emotions' ?

It seems your posts are becoming increasingly uncontrolled, personally abusive and irrational




As with other participants, I'll probably continue to post in this thread for as long as previous and subsequent points of view and opinions engender interest and response

Basically, it's my belief that virtually everyone alive experiences (or will experience) depression at some point in their lives. Some will suffer it more than others. Most will find a solution which works for them at least some of the time

People vary in intelligence and insight. Insight often increases with age and experience

It's my opinion that some forms of depression can result in increased insight, such as the poster above who details how his bout with depression after part-completing the trail, led to his realisation that he would benefit if he made changes in his life

For others, depression can be extremly debilitating and several posters have said it caused them increasingly to 'close down'

The thing is, depression is common. And by itself, it's no indicator of exceptional intelligence or insight or of general evolution in consciousness or spirituality, imo

reply to post by St Vaast


Man, you guys should get married. You're rather like my parents discussing the manner of discussion instead of just discussing. Geladinhu, you're my dad. St Vaast, you're my mom (reverse roles if you like, but as it is seems most accurate). You can make another one like me and we all do another round on the merry go round.



Edit: Tweak peacemaker words for clearer meaning.

[edit on 8/29/2009 by EnlightenUp]

reply to post by EnlightenUp



LOL


and God blessed the Peacemakers, for they are generous of spirit

and so are you !

Starred .. you're a credit to this forum

reply to post by St Vaast


Thank you very much.

My opinion is that he really desperately wants to help someone get better which is what I think you want to see as well (of course, he's your son). Wishing (I think G, you are trying to) to help someone one identifies with is possibly a tacit admission that he or she isn't quite happy with their own current state.

I really think the vast majority who are depressed would like to at least have occasional complete relief from that state, even if they find it useful and even if they would deny it (ie. "Man, I like being the dark, mopey lord of the underworld.") Succeeding helping another could cement some hope in one's self that it could happen.

Now, I will even admit to my concern and wishing to do the same thing in this very thread. I suspect my humanity gives at least a modicum of valid insight into others...I think. Could be wrong. I'm not trying to be pushy!

[edit on 30-8-2009 by nine-eyed-eel]

I'd love more this thread if it was in spanish, i don't know if i can put well my ideas/story in english about this topic.

Since age 4 I was a very contemplative person, i used to ask myself everything, and ask other about those topics too. Maybe because of it I'm here, i always developed a great interest for knowing the truth behind everything. I was an avid reader, and always one more among adults. I was hated among my classmates because i always knew everything and i never liked child games but to read and looking my surroundings (the sky is something that always capt my attention since today)... and write. My first script that was played in public was about Rosswell in a 5th grade comedy to give you an idea. I wasn't a depressive person, but a very melancholic one. Sarcastic and cheerful when in company of people like me (always older).

Then, this sudden depression started over, when i was 15 or so. It was like a shadow curtain covered everything and i started to get convinced that the truth i was seeking since a child was a lie and everything was like it appeared to be. No more UFO's or conspirations, magic or nothing. I stopped reading, asking... but started to ask myself another tasks, like if it was necessary my presence on this planet or if i was going to be successful on what i wanted to do... even if i wanted to do something after finishing school. A very dark period in my life, everything lost it's shine and beauty. I used to "look" cheerful, but i was numb in the inside. I considered suicide time to time because i couldn't stand living that way. It had good things too, i never wrote that much as when i was depressed.

I faked everything and i had a complete normal life, until my ex fiancee left me months before the wedding. Then my depression was impossible to fake and my mom took me to a psychiatrist. And i ended taking zoloft. God, that was a complete s**t. They completely knocked me and i wasn't even able to ask myself why i was that depressed, thing that i used to ask myself constantly when i wasn't taking meds. They just gave me enough energy to get out from the bed day by day but my brain was dead, absolutely dead. I didn't ever think on killing myself because i wasn't in the mood to do it (or to do anything more).

By life chances i had to take some medical exams because i was getting ill time to time by an undefined reason, and they showed up that my bad called endogenous depression was just an alteration of my thyroid gland. They gave me levotyroxin. And suddenly everything started to be like when i was a child. My inquisitive mind started to work again and i flushed away the remaining zoloft pills on the toilet. That things are pure poison that made your brain stop working, even more than depression itself.

I agree that maybe intelligent people tends to develop depression because they're always asking themselves everything. And going into depression when they can't find answers that suits their beliefs. More intelligent people just keeps searching for the truth even if the answers they find aren't enough to fulfill their needs

(jeez... This is just SO bad written)

EDIT: spelling and redaction. GOD!.


[edit on 30-8-2009 by Caggy]

Originally posted by nine-eyed-eel


[edit on 30-8-2009 by nine-eyed-eel]

Sir, just say what you're gonna say. Have at it! No need to hide behind "edit" for redaction.

I also noted the time of your post in my TZ:
"posted on 8/29/2009 @ 11:11 PM"

Originally posted by dzonatas

Originally posted by merryxmas
I think this article falls short in that regard.

I don't think you understand the difference between clinical depression, dysthimia, and being unipolar.

People with clinical depression and dysthimia may be able to get over the emotional down by being able to change their mood. That is not true with people who are unipolar. Those who are unipolar could have the most positive mind in the world and still be affected.

We need people to understand that because too often those who are unipolar have been mistreated. These article references in the OP help with those differences.

It is not as simple as you think.

If one is being able to be stuck in thought about suicide, then at least they are 'functioning'. In the case of someone who is unipolar, they wouldn't be stuck in thought of suicide because their brain wouldn't function in such a loop. Not being able to think at all is much different from being able to think about something.

So what do people 'not being able to think' do? They learn over time to think about simple things, just like the article points out. It is simple things that help people who are unipolar to be able to think. Over time, they get good at it. They learn to avoid the complex thins because that makes their brain go back to the 'not being able to think' mode -- zombified.


[edit on 28-8-2009 by dzonatas]

I don't see what your post has to do with mine at all. My post was very clear. Depression does NOT make one a better thinker, ruminator or more philosophical or smarter as the article leads. Again, my point was that someone of a healthy mind and body will more aptly be able to take any challenge head on do a better degree than someone afflicted with depression. I spoke nothing about someone being able to get over their illness through positive thinking as that wasn't the point. I DID however speak about people who are not afflicted with a mental illness or even treatable depression and said they are more capable of problem solving as studies have shown time and time again.

You breaking down the differences in mental illness has no bearing on what I said at all. Nor did I make any claims this affects, bipolar, unipolar, schizophrenic, shizotypal, cinical or any other form of illness stronger than others or that one type is better suited to dealing with this than another. Either you didn't understand my post or you are responding to it with completely irrelevant information. I'm not sure why.

Originally posted by merryxmas
I don't see what your post has to do with mine at all.

I basically wanted to make something more clear.

My post was very clear.

Ok, you stated:

On the contrary, a depressed person may "ruminate" but more often than not their deep thinking is so riddled with circular thinking that they cannot see past what is afflicting them to attack the problem from different directions. A depressed mind is more shut down, the thoughts are weighed down with doubt, pity, woe and this leads to the type of circular thinking is not productive. It has been demonstrated time and again that positive thinking, outlook and perception is beneficial to thought, health and overall wellbeing

I disagree. For one, it is not the mind that is depressed, it is the brain that gets depressed. If you don't see the difference between the mind and brain, then you found why you don't understand where we do point out the differences.

As I said in this thread, someone can have the most positive mind, yet their brain can be affected with depression. Under such conditions, what I quoted above from you doesn't hold true at all.

It would be an evolution if you understand my viewpoint here and let go of your viewpoint I quoted above, yet I won't expect that to happen even if I have positive hopes for you and others to see other viewpoints.

Depression does NOT make one a better thinker, ruminator or more philosophical or smarter as the article leads.

As others have said in this thread already, the article seems to state that depression is the cause for evolution, yet we find it is something else that is the cause and depression is a common symptom that goes along with it. In order for depression to be the cause for evolution, for example, you would agree to see my viewpoint above and consider it as true.

Peace & Love

Your response is overwhelmingly pedantic. It's predicated on your view of the difference of brain and mind. That a person is not depressed because their brain is depressed yet they have a positive mind but that is not their brain. That is like saying all men are good but their actions may be evil. If you seek to deconstruct everything I wrote base it on something more than your view of the difference between mind and brain.

Originally posted by merryxmas
Your response is overwhelmingly pedantic.

*sigh*

Your view is predicated that all depressed people are "so riddled with circular thinking that they cannot see past what is afflicting them to attack the problem from different directions." That is like if you said all depressed do evil actions and none of them are actually good (to put it in your analogy). I disagree with your analogy as you tried to compare something that is not existential like as if it was existential.

I think you have mistaken someone that thinks about a few things obsessively, like someone with anxiety, rather than someone who is distracted from what they want to focus on, as one who is depressed. Being unipolar is almost comparable to ADD. It's given that ADD meds may provide a relief, yet they are no cure. Of course, docs probably wouldn't prescribe ADD meds to regular clinical depression, which they typically go through the seratonin and norepinephrine inhibitors. Cases that are more severe than clinical (like unipolar, which is physical depression not of the mind) also take dopamine reuptake inhibitor (fake speed). If those don't work, then med evals continue with other drugs like the ADD type.

Doctors certainly wouldn't prescribe ADD meds to someone that is a 'circular-thinker' unless they have some kind of related sleep disorder. Hmmm. With a sleep disorder, the primary disorder wouldn't even be considered anything like ADD.

Go figure.


[edit on 1-9-2009 by dzonatas]

Originally posted by EnlightenUp

Originally posted by nine-eyed-eel


[edit on 30-8-2009 by nine-eyed-eel]

Sir, just say what you're gonna say. Have at it! No need to hide behind "edit" for redaction.

I also noted the time of your post in my TZ:
"posted on 8/29/2009 @ 11:11 PM"

Hey, don't be mad...I was just slow to realize that I should shut up.
I post too much anyway...I keep confusing being able to talk with having a reason to speak.
But I think you're right...it was bad form on my part...I only actually learned how to use the edit button last week (truly) and I think the new power went to my head.