The light, is symbolic with the things, or knowledge that Lucifer (representation of what ever is out there that is evil) brought to Adam and Eve(whoever the original people of the earth were) which they used against God, or used to try to be like God.Remember Nimrod, he built the Tower of Babel, which was a representation of the rebellion against God.In other words, when man gets to the age where he thinks that there is no creator (natural evolution) and that man can do what he wants with no moral obligations to himself, or anyone else.The light or freedom you talk about, is the freedom against God(the representaion of what ever out there is good) and the willingness of man to fortakeupon what ever sins he desires.To be a more physical creature(like a beast) instead of a spiritual one that we are intended to be.Lucifer brought Adam and Eve knowledge (the tree of knowledge) or the light, as you call it.And, the Bible also says that in the last days, people will become more like a beast, or crawl with the beasts because our lack of spiritual understanding, and UNWILLINGNESS to want to learn.Remeber, the us's whole M.O. is to come over here and do what you want, and be free, and EVERYONE in the world wants in, is it adding up yet?Probably not though

Ok jhova, so I've checked out all your posts on this thread and you appear to be saying that there is an occult theme running through the modern ' secret societies '. This is undoubtedly true, but that is only their heritage, it counts little for the actual modern raison detre of these orginisations. For sure within these orginasations will be sub groups or inner groups where the occult is the most important aspect. And yet in others the focus is on social interaction and philosophy. Where the occult is the focus it is important to ask what is it that you find dangerous about that fact? Do you understand what the original occultists were about. Unfortunately, and quite amusingly, there are groups today that inspired by Christian lies about the original occultists pursue such things as devil worship etc in the name of an organisation they nothing about. The term Illuminati you have used so often has been used to group together everything from N.W.O's to baby killers and associated the two, but in reality it simply means to be Illuminated or enlightend, to learn. Ancient Japan has a history of the search for enlightenment through non religious means, as in Aikido or Kendo. Yet here they are not villified or burned at the stake rather they are respected and held high in their society.
Religion in the west has a lot to answer for, mainly the world wide global hostility that burns in the minds of the old and young alike ensuring that we really are in for the long haul.

My point is that the us is set up with mystery reigious cult-like symbols, from the dollar bill to the obelisk in dc!Who gives a # if you get mad.Masons have 0 to do with God, so why we he quote the Bible?Ifyou studied mystery religions properly (took 2 classes on subjects dealing with it this, and last semester at IU university, first of all!)then you would know that they are practicly one and the sameSEE FROM HELL!How would you like to be praising cult like symbols unwillingly, and without your knowledge,, you are already are.

[Edited on 15-5-2004 by jhova]

Originally posted by jhova
In other words, when man gets to the age where he thinks that there is no creator (natural evolution) and that man can do what he wants with no moral obligations to himself, or anyone else.The light or freedom you talk about, is the freedom against God(the representaion of what ever out there is good) and the willingness of man to fortakeupon what ever sins he desires.To be a more physical creature(like a beast) instead of a spiritual one that we are intended to be.Lucifer brought Adam and Eve knowledge (the tree of knowledge) or the light, as you call it.

Wow. You really do have issues.

Firstly, freemasonry is all about nurturing and spreading morality - not about destroying it.

Secondly, freemasonry requires the belief of a creator god before you can even join.

Thirdly, freemasonry teaches that the physical is second to the spiritual (it did for me anyway).

The light that you seem so set against is your definition - not masonry's. As already stated here, the masonic light comes from the Bible!!!
You're arguing for the sake of arguing and don't seem to have a single credible fact to back yourself up with. Yet again you use the word Lucifer. Where in the Bible does it say that Lucifer directed Adam and Eve to the Tree of Knowledge?

And as I've already stated - JESUS CALLS HIMSELF THE MORNING STAR IN REVELATIONS!!!!
By your logic, Jesus is Lucifer and therefore Satan.

[Edited on 15-5-2004 by Leveller]

Interestingly having argued for Church Vs Secret society overview of the current situation, it is apparent that, in modern society the lines are somewhat blurred. Many members of todays Lodges ( who undoubtedly have connections at least as far back as the Cathars of 1100's) do not share in a total disassociation with the Catholic version of events surrounding the early days of christianity, as appeared to be the case prior to say the 18th century. Any thoughts.

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by jhova
In other words, when man gets to the age where he thinks that there is no creator (natural evolution) and that man can do what he wants with no moral obligations to himself, or anyone else.The light or freedom you talk about, is the freedom against God(the representaion of what ever out there is good) and the willingness of man to fortakeupon what ever sins he desires.To be a more physical creature(like a beast) instead of a spiritual one that we are intended to be.Lucifer brought Adam and Eve knowledge (the tree of knowledge) or the light, as you call it.

Wow. You really do have issues.

Firstly, freemasonry is all about nurturing and spreading morality - not about destroying it.

Secondly, freemasonry requires the belief of a creator god before you can even join.

Thirdly, freemasonry teaches that the physical is second to the spiritual (it did for me anyway).

The light that you seem so set against is your definition - not masonry's. As already stated here, the masonic light comes from the Bible!!!
You're arguing for the sake of arguing and don't seem to have a single credible fact to back yourself up with. Yet again you use the word Lucifer. Where in the Bible does it say that Lucifer directed Adam and Eve to the Tree of Knowledge?

And as I've already stated - JESUS CALLS HIMSELF THE MORNING STAR IN REVELATIONS!!!!
By your logic, Jesus is Lucifer and therefore Satan.

[Edited on 15-5-2004 by Leveller]

First of all, YOU HAVE ISSUES BUDDY.I was talking about America becoming soulless, which is true.And if you don not know that, you live a sheltered life, because our situation is crappy!The fact is, mystery religions deal with the occult, human sacrifice and bloodletting, and masonic symbols and initiation rites are paralleled with them.And if you don't know that, I suggest doing some homework.Jesus says he will come with the morning star, when the sun rises, he and satan are not the same.It does say that satan, or the serpent, brought adam and eve the ""knowledge", what are you stupid, quit knit picking on my the words between satan and lucifer, when I am referring to the same representaion of evil.I don't care if the Bible said Junebug, I know they mean the representation of evil and you know what I meant.Quit worrying about irrelevant things.Who freemasons believe is "God" is still left for interpretation.These same freemasons left God out of almost all major documents, when founding this country, and has been wanting to take prayer out of school and out of the visible eye, but they praise God though right? SHUT THE HELL UP if you have not seen "From Hell", or done extensive research into mystery religions, or symbols of the occult, because I just don't believe you or your credibility

On the morning star subject, I have "heard" that satan made a baby, or came to earth in human form, much like Jesus, or perhaps they were brothers, anybody with anything on that?

Smudge. With respect, the link between Cathars and Masonry is a very tenuous one. People tend to form a line of Greek Mystery schools, Catharism, Templars and then Masonry. What they forget is that Templarism was an orthodox Christian military order. It has been endowed with mystisism and heresy from an orthodox viewpoint but there is no evidence for this. A far more likely version of events is that Templarism was cast in a heretical light by Philip the Fair with the help of the pope so that he could destroy the order and lay his hands on it's assets.
If the Templars were a Christian order it is unlikely that they would have formed from the Cathars. Although they did have some aspects in common, in my opinion, there were far two many differences between them for their to have been a progression. That's even assuming that masonry progressed from the Templars and the jury is still out on that one too.
Tracing masonry back to the Mystery Schools is therefore an impossible task.

As for masons who hold an Orthodox view? We have a couple of rock solid Christians in my lodge. And who is to say that they are wrong in their views? Personally, I have a view that there is a dogma and that there is too much that has been changed and hidden in organised religion, but who apart from myself can say that I am right? I can only make my mind up with what I see and look for. Those who follow the Orthodox line can only do the same with what they look for and see.


JHova. You're not worth arguing with. You claim to be a "student of religions" but show remarkably little knowledge of them. Your statement that God is an interpretation in masonry is a destroyer of your own argument. I don't know if you've noticed, but God is an interpretation in all religions and even sects within those religions.

As for "Shutting the Hell up", I would suggest you do the same and go and do the research that you are so fond of advising others to do, before you post sonething else that can be so easily picked apart by anyone with a knowledge of rudimentary theology.

By the way. I see yet another little twist in your argument. We're now turning away from how bad Masonry is to how bad the US is. May I just remind you that recognised masonry is not an American creation.
I have seen the movie "From Hell" and I'm British and interested in my country's history, so Jack the Ripper was a figure that interested me. Unlike you though, I don't base a Hollywood work of fiction as the major foundation for my argument.


[Edited on 15-5-2004 by Leveller]

Christianity has also fallen pray to evil things, and corruptedness over the years.The true image or face of masonry is evil.You have not picked apart anything, because you have said nothing.Your theology is good, why, because you say so, uh no!And I am a student of many things,I study these things with professors, what makes you relevant at all?I use my own knowledge, put two and two together, to make my descisions.The makers of the movie "From Hell" have done INTENSE research, and you need to check it out before you start yapping, with your I don't know anything about mystery religions a$$.Just because you live in Europe means nothing, there are dummies everywhere

[Edited on 15-5-2004 by jhova]

Now let's take a good look at this stuff before we go running off at the mouth now, okay!

Leveller, that does appear to be the case on the surface however being a conspiracy forum it would be rude of me to take the mainstream historical view of the facts and be happy with them.
I feel that there is far too much evidence of if not lineage then at least a mutual respect between the Cathars and the Templars. The Templars were notable by their absence as " crusading knights " from the Albigensian crusade against the Cathars which lasted fifty years, despite the crusade taking place in the Languedoc the heartland of the then Templar orginisation. The evidence of a line from the Templars through the house of Saintclere and the Scottish Rite Freemasonary is also hard to dispute.

Originally posted by jhova
before you start yapping, with your I don't know anything about mystery religions a$$.

Who said anything about your not knowing anything about mystery religions?
I've stated that you know nothing about Christianity - as your references to Lucifer go to show. I would have thought that would have been a far more damning statement.

Cutting and pasting links to anti-masonic sites does nothing for your argument either. Their foundations are as wobbly as yours. And your statement that we should discuss them seriously seems to be a rather hypocritical one too. When things are discussed with seriousness and you are confronted with fact you resort to namecalling and more illogical argument.

Basically JHova - you're a waste of time. But heck!! I forgive you.
Now who's the Christian?


Smudge. To tell the truth, I'd love to find some fact that links the Templars to the masons of today - it would make things a lot more easier for me to understand. But I just can't find anything that bears up to serious scrutiny. I guess that you've already stated the best bit of evidence with the Templar depiction in the window of the St Clair chapel but I need a little bit more convincing on that one.
I'm not entirely convinced by the Albigensian crusade theory. The fact is that although the Templars took no part in that Crusade this was probably because they were created exclusively to work in the Holy Land and the region outside of Europe that was under threat from Islam.
I read somewhere that most Templars were also French and that a lot of them came from the Languedoc region where Catharism was to be found. Maybe it was sensible not to send them there as they may have rebelled against killing their neighbours?

If you're after a good read then can I suggest "The Templars" by Piers Paul Read. It's a cracking book that takes a purely historical look at the order. The author also tries to base everything on available historical fact and by doing this he seems to lay to rest a lot of the conspiracy theories that surround the Templars.

[Edited on 15-5-2004 by Leveller]

Whatever you say my friend...Whatever you say

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by jhova
before you start yapping, with your I don't know anything about mystery religions a$$.

Who said anything about your not knowing anything about mystery religions?
I've stated that you know nothing about Christianity - as your references to Lucifer go to show. I would have thought that would have been a far more damning statement.

Cutting and pasting links to anti-masonic sites does nothing for your argument either. Their foundations are as wobbly as yours. And your statement that we should discuss them seriously seems to be a rather hypocritical one too. When things are discussed with seriousness and you are confronted with fact you resort to namecalling and more illogical argument.

Basically JHova - you're a waste of time. But heck!! I forgive you.
Now who's the Christian?

You are a funny dude!But you went off of the subject, just like anyone who loses the battle...now...fade...into...a...corner.....

You seem to be under the impression that I am pro Christian, and anti anything else, not the case.I believe in whatever out there that is love, whether it be who or what ever.But I know evil when I see it, but evil can't.What are you?

Leveller, here's an interesting potential link. Bernard Clairvaux Cistercian Monk and apparent co founder of The Templars was dispatched to the Cathars in an attempt by the church to reign in the Cathars unorthodx beliefs. On returning to the pope he stated that although their doctrine was in error their lifestyle was beyond reproach. But more interestingly is the High reguard that both Cathars and Templars have for John The Baptist. In fact it is true that Johanism along with praise for the female ( be it virgin or mother) are themost recurring links between many of the apparently secret societies of the time.

Originally posted by jhova
You seem to be under the impression that I am pro Christian, and anti anything else, not the case.I believe in whatever out there that is love, whether it be who or what ever.But I know evil when I see it, but evil can't.What are you?

I'm a freemason. Didn't you know?
Why don't you take a look at the Three Grand Principles on which Freemasonry is founded and which are the first thing that every freemason learns.

Truth.
Brotherly Love.
Charity.

What is Truth? Wouldn't you say that is Love?
What is Brotherly Love? Doesn't that speak for itself as Love?
What is Charity? Try looking at the Revised Bible (the one that is commonly used by the Church today) and then the King James version - 1Corinthians Chapter 13.

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by jhova
You seem to be under the impression that I am pro Christian, and anti anything else, not the case.I believe in whatever out there that is love, whether it be who or what ever.But I know evil when I see it, but evil can't.What are you?

I'm a freemason. Didn't you know?
Why don't you take a look at the Three Grand Principles on which Freemasonry is founded and which are the first thing that every freemason learns.

Truth.
Brotherly Love.
Charity.

What is Truth? Wouldn't you say that is Love?
What is Brotherly Love? Doesn't that speak for itself as Love?
What is Charity? Try looking at the Revised Bible (the one that is commonly used by the Church today) and then the King James version - 1Corinthians Chapter 13.

NOt like the same 3 principles in the occult and satan worship?Those can't be the underlying basis , and symbolizing for the same thing can they?The truth, is the knowledge that they learn in freemasonry.If there were know occult like practices, somewhere down the line, it ain't Christian.Why is it secret if it is proChristian?They look to idles, period.Even your name Leveller is symblolic with the great architect,or the "God"represented by the eye on the pyramid on freemason symbols and the us dollar bill (more idols).If YOU knew christianity, you would know idol worship of ANY kind is evil (astrology,humansacrifice, symbols like the ones in the us, freemasonry, and mysteryreligions, and they are all alike.)

[Edited on 15-5-2004 by jhova]