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posted on May, 14 2004 @ 08:01 PM
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Originally posted by jhova
Go watch the movie "From Hell". It will give you some insite on mystery religions and freemasonry.Also look up mystery religions, and there connections with the mysteries talked about in freemasonry.Who is the great architect?The mind behind builders of the pyramids?What light or knowledge is being brought into the world?


I forgot, we are now in the era of shoddy research, plagiarism, and downright fabrication, why wouldn't I turn to Hollywood to provide me with the answers to the Universe? Let's get some gas and burn all the books, just in case some inconvenient shred of truth might rear it's ugly head. I am also concerned about your obsession with the builders of the Pyramids throughout history. All the cultures you have mentioned are dead! Do you envision a future where the UFO's land, the Ancient Egyptians, Aztecs, Mayans, et al get and say "All your base are belong to us!"? And only the Masons are off the hook? I mean it's true, I just want to know if you believe it before we send a couple of guys over to pick you up. Deny ignorance... go straight to stupidity.




[Edited on 14-5-2004 by Mirthful Me]




posted on May, 14 2004 @ 08:12 PM
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There are several comments from several different posters that I’d like to respond to, in no particular order.


Only 6 U.S presidents have-not been Masons. Most Judges are Masons.


This has been addressed here before, but I will re-cap: 16 U.S. Presidents have been Masons. The majority of U.S. Presidents have been non-Masons.


All Presidents have been Christian...


All of our Presidents have not been Christians. For example, Thomas Jefferson called Christianity “inexcusable superstition”, and Lincoln was also a critic of Christianity. Beginning with Washington, most U.S. Presidents were Deists and/or Unitarians. Only in modern times has it been deemed politically correct for politicians to label themselves Christians in order to attract the Christian vote.


Has anyone seen the movie "From Hell"?


“From Hell” is a work of fiction based on the comic book novel of the same name, written by a member of Aleister Crowley’s semi-secret society Ordo Templi Orientis, the purpose being to lampoon conspiracy theorists.


Freemasonry is definitely dealing with the occult.


Some Masons are interested in the Occult. I am one of them, and have studied the occult for many years. However, most Masons couldn’t care less about the Occult Sciences and Philosophies.


There are so many symbols of the occult in todays religion and everyday life


Religion and Occultism cannot be separated. All religion, by its very definition, is occultic. “Occult” means “hidden”, and religion deals with those things hidden from our natural senses.


They also deal with sun worship and human sacrifice.


While it could be rightly said that this absurd statement deserves no refutation, I’ll respond to it anyway because I’m bored. Needless to say, Freemasons neither worship the sun nor engage in sacrifice. The vast majority of Masons, of course, are Protestant Christians.


Mystery religions deal with sacrifice and sun worship.


Wrong again. Anthropologists such as Frazer have dealt with this subject to a great extent, so it is unnecessary to elaborate here in great length. Suffice it to say that the Mysteries were for the Initiated, and they did not consist of the superstitions of the commoners. The masses did indeed worship the sun and stars, but the Initiates of the Mysteries did not. The Mysteries were held in secret because the pagan commoners would have considered their doctrines heresy. Most of the classical Greek philosophers were Initiates of the Eleusinian Mysteries, as well as those of Osiris, and the execution of Socrates is a fine example of the superstitious people venting their wrath on an Initiate. They accused him of atheism and corrupting the young, while all he was actually doing was communicating the Doctrines of the Mysteries.


They also built pyramids with cult like numerical meanings like our dollar bill, which was designed by a freemason.


Of the Committee who designed the Great Seal, only one, Benjamin Franklin, was a Freemason. And Franklin had actually opposed the adoption of this Seal, because he had designed a different one that he thought was better.

Fiat Lvx.

[Edited on 14-5-2004 by Masonic Light]



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 08:18 PM
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Coherent and succinct as always ML, however this will fall upon deaf ears. The fix is in!



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 08:32 PM
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Originally posted by Mirthful Me

Originally posted by jhova
Go watch the movie "From Hell". It will give you some insite on mystery religions and freemasonry.Also look up mystery religions, and there connections with the mysteries talked about in freemasonry.Who is the great architect?The mind behind builders of the pyramids?What light or knowledge is being brought into the world?


I forgot, we are now in the era of shoddy research, plagiarism, and downright fabrication, why wouldn't I turn to Hollywood to provide me with the answers to the Universe? Let's get some gas and burn all the books, just in case some inconvenient shred of truth might rear it's ugly head. I am also concerned about your obsession with the builders of the Pyramids throughout history. All the cultures you have mentioned are dead! Do you envision a future where the UFO's land, the Ancient Egyptians, Aztecs, Mayans, et al get and say "All your base are belong to us!"? And only the Masons are off the hook? I mean it's true, I just want to know if you believe it before we send a couple of guys over to pick you up. Deny ignorance... go straight to stupidity.


[Edited on 14-5-2004 by Mirthful Me]


You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.Mystery religions my friend.



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 08:36 PM
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But people can never explain the connections, similarities, and symbols involved, but the conspiracy does not exist though, right?Whatever you say!



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 08:48 PM
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Originally posted by Mirthful Me

[deletia]

Do you envision a future where the UFO's land, the Ancient Egyptians, Aztecs, Mayans, et al get and say "All your base are belong to us!"? And only the Masons are off the hook?

[deletia]

[Edited on 14-5-2004 by Mirthful Me]


Sombody set us up the Lodge!
What you say?
Take off every apron for great justice!

Does this mean I will get a cool pyramid hat, like Devo?



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 08:56 PM
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Perchance some detail,vice the one line minutea? A point is best made with facts, supported by a solid foundation (or a sharp edge and a stick). Please provide the same courtesy that has been afforded you by the respondents of this thread.




[Edited on 14-5-2004 by Mirthful Me]



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 09:00 PM
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I am still confused about Masonry. On one hand, I have seen stuff indicating they are part of a serioes of gateway societies into the Illuminati. On the the otherhand, Ive also heard they are against such things.

I know some things about freemasonry. Most of the symbolism doesnt scare me, as I have studied and looked into things like hermetic magic and ancient occult symbolism.

One thing I have learned, is that not all Freemasons are rich or very powerful. I had once assumed this, as most freemasons I knew of were pretty well to do, upper middle class, ect. But then i found out my grandpa and my uncle were both Masons. So, scratch that.

The founding fathers were also Masons, yes, yet they also drafted the constitution, which,w as about as anti NWO as you can get.

So, Im undecided about Masons. the secrecy thing is kind of wierd, but I know several other groups, religious or not, that are secretive.

Maybe some Masons secretly are part of the NWO, might have ties with the big boys, but Masonry in general doesnt seem to be geared towards that direction. So, I wont say they are part of it.

The only thing that creeps me out is that so many pillars of the community are part of this large secret society. Lots of people are christians too, yet Christian doctrine is hardly a secret.

A bunch of people part of a secret club, kinda creeps me out.



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 09:24 PM
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Ah, after going and hanging some drapes in my fine new apt., I get more opportunity to try to correct some wayward ideas and show off (I love the sound of my own typing
)! I love the internet.


Originally posted by jhova
Go watch the movie "From Hell".


OK, done. Now what?



It will give you some insite on mystery religions and freemasonry.


"From Hell" gave me exactly zero insight into mystery religions. It did not even speak about mystery religions. Even if it did, it was fictional. Also, even if it did, I learned more in one single-semester mythology course than I ever learned from movies. I would strongly recommend the study of the classics to you, "jhova" (I'm sorry, I don't like typing your chosen name... I know you mean nothing by it, but it sounds quite offensive to me that you choose a mispronounciation of the hebraic name for the Ineffable for your personal name, as if I were to call myself (God Forbid I should do such a thing) Allah). You seem to have an active mind which might be well-exercised by studying the beautiful myths and literature produced by our historical antecedants.



Also look up mystery religions, and there connections with the mysteries talked about in freemasonry.


Where should I look this up?

The Mystery Religions were all very different. There is a connection between the ancient Christian mystery rituals and a degree done in the Scottish Rite up here in Canada (I will say no more about this). And the drama of the third degree in Masonry is shared by MANY, MANY other cultures. So what? The idea of sharing wine and bread with others stretches back to Melchisedek (Malachai Zadok) according to the Bible and certainly back before Judaism proper, but that doesn't make it unholy (unless you are suggesting that the Eucharist is unholy...).



Who is the great architect?


I don't know... Frank Lloyd Wright?

The Great Architect (capitalised properly) however, is God, pure and simple.



The mind behind builders of the pyramids?


If you are impying here that the Great Architect, God, was the Mind behind the builders of the pyramids, I could not agree with you more. In fact, the Great Architect was the builder of the builder of the pyramids, and the one who made the stone that built the pyramids, and the atoms that made up the stones, and the one who declared the laws that tell those atoms how to behave, and the one who decreed the presence of evolution so that the pyramid builders could arise from ape-like creatures, and He who gives me a heart and soul so that I may freely love Masonry, and He that gives you a heart and soul so that you may hate Masonry. (Sorry about going on so... I'm a fan of God's work... especially women. God outdid himself with women... but that's a whole other post
)



What light or knowledge is being brought into the world?


Hopefully the light of compassion, the knowledge of our duty and how we humans can live as Stewards of the world and stop pretending to be its Masters... but that's just my opinion. I have no doubt that the light that the Most High shines upon us is for our benefit, but far be it from me to speculate about its nature.



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 09:27 PM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

[deletia]

A bunch of people part of a secret club, kinda creeps me out.


Maybe, but let me ask you this... does it creep you out that a bunch of people are secretly gay? Or that lots of people choose not to discuss their religious beliefs with anyone except their close friends and family? Or that you have a right to privately communicate with someone without the Govornment of your nation inspecting the mail? Or that you don't know my exact address and telephone number, nor my age, nor my current occupation and interests, and I don't know yours?

P.S., By the way, S.T.E.E., I just remembered that you used to be in the Armed Forces (if I remember correctly). Does it creep you out that you may have been given orders which can't be shared with the rest of us?

[Edited on 14-5-2004 by AlexKennedy]



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 09:35 PM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
I am still confused about Masonry. On one hand, I have seen stuff indicating they are part of a serioes of gateway societies into the Illuminati. On the the otherhand, Ive also heard they are against such things.


The Illuminati was founded by two Freemasons: Adam Weishaupt and Adolph Von Knigge. Many, if not most, of the people who joined it were Masons, and were members of the Rite of Strict Observance, at that time the largest Masonic Rite in Bavaria. Goethe and Mozart were also members of the Illuminati.
However, the historical Illuminati bears little resemblance to the “Illuminati” of the conspiracy theorists. The historical Illuminati were actually freedom fighters, who wanted to establish a democracy in Bavaria based upon that of the American Revolution; the Jesuit Electorate, who ruled Bavaria, attempted to discredit them by inventing absurd conspiracy theories in order to slander them, and to control Bavarian citizens through fear of the unknown. The Illuminati conspiracy theories exist today, more widespread than ever, even though Weishaupt disbanded the Illuminai over two centuries ago, and published its formerly secret papers to the general public.


One thing I have learned, is that not all Freemasons are rich or very powerful. I had once assumed this, as most freemasons I knew of were pretty well to do, upper middle class, ect. But then i found out my grandpa and my uncle were both Masons. So, scratch that.


This is, nevertheless, an important point. Freemasonry’s existence is owed to the 18th century Enlightenment, and the Fraternity professes enlightened ideals. The equality of all men was a basic doctrine of the Enlightenment, and continues to be exhibited in Masonry. In Masonic Lodges, men such as Frederick the Great, Benjamin Franklin, and Voltaire met with farmers and street vendors as Brothers. I have personally sat in Lodge with two U.S. Senators, a famous television personality, and a world-renowned musician, as well as unemployed college students, auto mechanics, and truck drivers.


So, Im undecided about Masons. the secrecy thing is kind of wierd, but I know several other groups, religious or not, that are secretive.


I don’t think secrecy is weird if viewed in its historical context. The stonemason guilds, from whence we came, were not extremely secret. But the Holy Inquisition caused the Fraternity to go underground, and adopt the form of a secret society. Today, the Fraternity no longer operates in secret in free countries, but preserves its customs out of tradition.


The only thing that creeps me out is that so many pillars of the community are part of this large secret society. Lots of people are christians too, yet Christian doctrine is hardly a secret.


Masonic doctrine has never been secret, and there are a great many scholars within the Fraternity who have written excellent books on the subject, all available to the general public.
Masonic doctrine, in a nutshell, can be summed up as follows:

1. The belief in One God.
2. The belief that God has considers all men and women His children.
3. The belief that since #2 is true, the Brotherhood of Man is a fact in Nature.
4. That each individual has the right to his/her own religious beliefs without being coerced by any church or organization.
5. Government by consent of the people, exercised through citizens’ suffrage.
6. The complete separation of Church and State.
7. That our Faith in a Higher Power is best manifested in our actions and deeds rather than in sectarian and theological argument.
8. Support for public education, and opposition to any attempt to allocate public money to private or sectarian institutions (a very basic Masonic ideal that is currently under attack from both state and federal governments....Brother Masons, be sure to vote in November!)

Fiat Lvx.


[Edited on 14-5-2004 by Masonic Light]



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 09:36 PM
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No need to be confused, the posters of the Secret Societies threads will guide you to understanding.


Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
I am still confused about Masonry. On one hand, I have seen stuff indicating they are part of a serioes of gateway societies into the Illuminati. On the the otherhand, Ive also heard they are against such things.

Masonry is not a gateway to any other associations, Its concordant/appendant bodies are not secret nor are the means to gain membership.


I know some things about freemasonry. Most of the symbolism doesnt scare me, as I have studied and looked into things like hermetic magic and ancient occult symbolism.

The symbolism is overblown, the key ones (The Working Tools of a Master Mason) are never discussed in this forum; I guess there's nothing exciting about a plumb or a 24 inch gauge.


One thing I have learned, is that not all Freemasons are rich or very powerful. I had once assumed this, as most freemasons I knew of were pretty well to do, upper middle class, ect. But then i found out my grandpa and my uncle were both Masons. So, scratch that.

Absolutely correct!


The founding fathers were also Masons, yes, yet they also drafted the constitution, which,w as about as anti NWO as you can get.

Some of the founding fathers were Masons some were not, as were signers of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. They stood for freedom and created a blueprint for what is the greatest nation and society in the world, current faults and all.


So, Im undecided about Masons. the secrecy thing is kind of wierd, but I know several other groups, religious or not, that are secretive.

Maybe some Masons secretly are part of the NWO, might have ties with the big boys, but Masonry in general doesnt seem to be geared towards that direction. So, I wont say they are part of it.

The only thing that creeps me out is that so many pillars of the community are part of this large secret society. Lots of people are christians too, yet Christian doctrine is hardly a secret.

It would be preferable if the putrid underbelly of the community had a secret society? What would their agenda be?


A bunch of people part of a secret club, kinda creeps me out.


Fair questions Elf, if you are willing to have an open mind, what you ask will be answered, honestly.


[Edited on 14-5-2004 by Mirthful Me]



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 09:42 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light

Masonic doctrine, in a nutshell, can be summed up as follows:

1. The belief in One God.
2. The belief that God has considers all men and women His children.
3. The belief that since #2 is true, the Brotherhood of Man is a fact in Nature.
4. That each individual has the right to his/her own religious beliefs without being coerced by any church or organization.
5. Government by consent of the people, exercised through citizens’ suffrage.
6. The complete separation of Church and State.
7. That our Faith in a Higher Power is best manifested in our actions and deeds rather than in sectarian and theological argument.
8. Support for public education, and opposition to any attempt to allocate public money to private or sectarian institutions (a very basic Masonic ideal that is currently under attack from both state and federal governments....Brother Masons, be sure to vote in November!)


I'm in tremendous agreement with what you wrote above, brother. I wish that I could applaud over a message board.

As for voting in November, I'll have to decline. Your country has this silly rule against foreigners voting.



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 09:45 PM
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Putrid underbelly society members dont quite ahve the same pull and power as the "pillars".

Ok, I shall ask some questions then, serious ones.

1. Is Christianity required in freemasonry, or is it acceptable as long as you believe in some form of diety?
2. What exactly is the freemason connection with judism, kabbalah, and other Hebrew type mysteries?
3. What is the Freemason view on old pagan religions?
4. Do Freemason practice magic of any sort?
5. How do Freemason react to other Freemasons when not in a lodge setting?
6. Are there guidlines Freemasons must follow regarding public behavior?
7. Are Freemasons required to subscribe to a certain political belief, or ideological, within the lodge?
8. What is the highest loyalty in Freemasonry?
9. Other than gender, what is the difference between the rites of the Eastern Star and Freemasons?

These are the ones i could put best to words, that i could think of.

And for the record, Im not Christian, my religious questions are to discern some sort of religious structure in freemasonry, if any, or religious bent.



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 10:13 PM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Putrid underbelly society members dont quite ahve the same pull and power as the "pillars".

Ok, I shall ask some questions then, serious ones.

1. Is Christianity required in freemasonry, or is it acceptable as long as you believe in some form of diety?

In my Grand Lodge jurisdiction a belief in a supreme being is all that is required; after acknowledging this no further inquiries can be made of you.


2. What exactly is the freemason connection with judism, kabbalah, and other Hebrew type mysteries?

In Masonic teachings, reference is made to the building of King Solomon’s Temple, religious mysteries are not part of direct teachings. ML may have something to add here.


3. What is the Freemason view on old pagan religions?

It is an individual choice, I personally look fondly upon the "Old time religion". Refer to answer #1.


4. Do Freemason practice magic of any sort?

Yes, we make beer disappear all the time, especially when someone else is buying.


5. How do Freemason react to other Freemasons when not in a lodge setting?

Favorably, you have committed to fellowship with your Brothers, you may not be best friends with all of them, but there can be no ill will.


6. Are there guidlines Freemasons must follow regarding public behavior?

Public and private, you are admonished to be upright in your dealings with all mankind.


7. Are Freemasons required to subscribe to a certain political belief, or ideological, within the lodge?

Absolutely not! Political discussion is forbidden within the lodge... no exceptions.


8. What is the highest loyalty in Freemasonry?

To your God. Country, family, and vocation also come before your obligation to Freemasonry.


9. Other than gender, what is the difference between the rites of the Eastern Star and Freemasons?

I am not an Eastern Star, but from what I understand it has the same tenets, merely different ritual.


These are the ones i could put best to words, that i could think of.

And for the record, Im not Christian, my religious questions are to discern some sort of religious structure in freemasonry, if any, or religious bent.



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 10:36 PM
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Thanks for answering my questions, i appreciate it.

It seems I was posting my questions before someone else in a pervious post asnwered some of them beforehand.

And for the record, I bet I can make beer disappear faster than you!



A few other questions pop into mind. Do Freemasons belong to toher societies/orders/ect?

Thank you for your responses. RThe uses of the words rituals answers alot of my questions. It appears its somewhat similar to certain hermetic rites Ive observed, though I know little of the Freemasonry.

Ok, so Freemasons arent out to take over the world then, just out to take over the breweries.....

In someways, freemasonry sounds like certain things Ive taken part in.



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 10:46 PM
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A Mason may belong to any number of organizations, be it social, political, fraternal et al. The only limitation may be where there is a conflict (wearing Masonic regalia at a political rally). We are ordinary people from diverse backgrounds, we are individuals with strengths and faults. I worry more about Bordeaux futures and taxes than the NWO, or any other conspiracy. I definitely don't have time to take over the world... I'm busy.


[Edited on 14-5-2004 by Mirthful Me]



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 10:48 PM
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Big Note: The opinions below are my opinions only


Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Putrid underbelly society members dont quite ahve the same pull and power as the "pillars".

Ok, I shall ask some questions then, serious ones.

1. Is Christianity required in freemasonry, or is it acceptable as long as you believe in some form of diety?


No, Christianity is absolutely not required at all. Anyone who believes in a Supreme Being (let's call that Being "God" for purposes of this message) may join. Certain unrecognised grand lodges will admit you even if you are an atheist, but they are not "mainstream" Masonry.



2. What exactly is the freemason connection with judism, kabbalah, and other Hebrew type mysteries?


Well, I feel that there is a connection between some Scottish Rite degrees and the Kabbalah, and Albert Pike's work agrees with me.



3. What is the Freemason view on old pagan religions?


There is none. Freemasonry is neither a religion nor a centralised govornment, and does not impose views upon its members, other than the requirement that members believe in a Supreme Being, and live by certain moral laws and the laws of their country.



4. Do Freemason practice magic of any sort?


I'm certain that there are Masons who practice so-called "magic." This is no business of Freemasonry, and Masons who practice magic do it on their own time.



5. How do Freemason react to other Freemasons when not in a lodge setting?


Of the probably hundreds of Masons I've ever met, I've maybe met one or two I disliked, and even then I'm sure I'd like them if I got to know them. Masons usually are very friendly to other Masons when not in a Lodge setting, because a Mason knows that a Brother is usually a good, true, and virtuous individual. Of course, a Mason can prove himself not to be with actions, in which case I'm sure he would not be as well-liked.



6. Are there guidlines Freemasons must follow regarding public behavior?


In my jurisdiction, yes, there are. This is not the same for every jurisdiction. Allow me to pull out my publicly available constitution and see what offenses can mean your expulsion...

Well, I looked all over and couldn't find it. Sorry, I'm moving. There are a few I remember by heart.


  1. Abusing a woman, physically or sexually
  2. Being an atheist
  3. Improperly revealing Masonic secrets
  4. Engaging in unfair / duplicitous business practices


This is by no means a complete list.

You can also look at Doc Anderson's Charges, which are requirements for Masonic behaviour and are still included in my Jurisdiction's constitution in pretty much this form (with some things taken out, such as the requirement that a Mason be "perfect in body..." one Mason in my lodge is missing both an arm and a leg (and he's still a better golfer than I could ever dream of being
).



7. Are Freemasons required to subscribe to a certain political belief, or ideological, within the lodge?


Absolutely not. The idea of imposing political or ideological beliefs is completely counter to Freemasonry.



8. What is the highest loyalty in Freemasonry?


That's an easy one. The highest loyalty of a Freemason is to God.



9. Other than gender, what is the difference between the rites of the Eastern Star and Freemasons?


As I'm not a member of the Eastern Star, and their ceremonies are secret, I can't answer this. I do know some gents who are members of both (since Masons can also join the Star up here) who have claimed that the rituals of the Star are even more beautiful than those of Craft Masonry... but they may have just said that to try to get me to join
.



These are the ones i could put best to words, that i could think of.

And for the record, Im not Christian, my religious questions are to discern some sort of religious structure in freemasonry, if any, or religious bent.


No religious structure in Freemasonry to discern.



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 10:56 PM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
A few other questions pop into mind. Do Freemasons belong to toher societies/orders/ect?...It appears its somewhat similar to certain hermetic rites Ive observed, though I know little of the Freemasonry.


I am also a member of Builders of the Adytum, an organization which traces lineage to the Alpha et Omega Temple of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. I'm also a former associate member of Ordo Templi Orientis.

Fiat Lvx.



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 11:15 PM
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The Golden Dawn, eh?

Ive actually had close friends and associates who belonged to various offspring of the golden dawn.

Now theres a group that fascinates the hell out of me. I would have soo many questions to ask, but Ill refrain.

needless to say, i think im getting a better understanding of many aspects of Freemasonry and the Eastern Star.

So now I wont cringe anymore when my uncle comes to visit.






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