Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by Deaf Alien

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It clearly states that homesexual sex is a sin. Here are just a few verses from the Bible regarding the subject of homosexuality.

2.Leviticus 20:13 (Whole Chapter)
“If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.

Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by Deaf Alien

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If that is your point then I could see how you could interpret it that way, as the Bible is about loving one another, but it is also about actions that are considered sinful.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by pdpayne0418

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Almost every single English translation of 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 is crap. The word homosexual was not even used until the 19th century. How could a word that wasn't dreamed of until 1800 years after the original word in another language was written be a perfect translation? Arsenakatoi is the original word, and before the word "homosexual" was derived, was translated loosely as "temple prostitute." STOP reading the Bible as if it is modern literature

Saying any part of the bible is crap tells me something about a person. And that is they really have no interest in doing things God's way. That's fine too, but when you take it to the next level and slander scripture that becomes a little more serious, even more serious than the acts of Homosexuality itself.

You're not going to impress me by quoting from lexicons and dictionaries. Do me a favor, and go back to read translations of 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 before the word "homosexual" was introduced into the English language. I think you missed my entire point. By the way, the entire last quote you posted seems to prove my point from my understanding of it - I simply think his last two sentences are unnecessary conclusions.

Peace,
Daniel

[edit on 25-7-2009 by pdpayne0418]

2Ti 3:1-5 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

1 Co 5:1-13 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Mat 18:15 -18 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

What is the Office of the Keys?
The Office of the Keys is the special authority which Christ has given to His Church on earth: to forgive the sins of the penitent sinners, but to retain the sins of the impenitent as long as they do not repent.

When Thou shalt come, O righteous Judge, to execute just judgment, seated on Thy throne of glory,
a river of fire will draw all men amazed before Thy judgment-seat; the powers of heaven will stand beside Thee,
and in fear mankind will be judged according to the deeds that each has done.
Then spare us,
Christ,
in Thy compassion,
with faith we entreat Thee, and count us worthy of Thy blessings with those that are saved.
(Vesperal Sticheron from the Triodion)
O dread is that terrible day in which the just judgment of the Lord shall come.
Quick shall be its coming,
at a time unknown,
and quick shall be its might.
No ear shall be spared the trumpets' resounding call to the divine Tribunal, nor shall any earthly strength be fit to withstand it.

Behold there comes a day of the Lord almighty,
and who shall endure the fear of His presence?
For it is a day of wrath; the furnace shall burn,
and the Judge shall sit and give to each the due return for his works. (Exapostilarion from Matins)
Fear is an emotion oft mentioned in the services for this preparatory Sunday before the onset of the Great Fast: fear of the Last Judgment, fear of the divine justice of God, fear of the just punishment awaiting sinful man.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by pdpayne0418

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Almost every single English translation of 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 is crap. The word homosexual was not even used until the 19th century. How could a word that wasn't dreamed of until 1800 years after the original word in another language was written be a perfect translation? Arsenakatoi is the original word, and before the word "homosexual" was derived, was translated loosely as "temple prostitute." STOP reading the Bible as if it is modern literature

Saying any part of the bible is crap tells me something about a person. And that is they really have no interest in doing things God's way. That's fine too, but when you take it to the next level and slander scripture that becomes a little more serious, even more serious than the acts of Homosexuality itself.

Let's take a break from biblical/textual scholarship and revisit remedial English 101. Is the subject of my sentence "bible" or "translation?" Translation, good. Subject = translation; verb = is; object = crap. So I did not call the Bible crap.

This makes me have to ask the question: would you consider the Living Bible equally infallible to the original Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew manuscripts? If so, explain to all of us how that makes an inking of sense.

Peace,
Daniel

13 καὶ ὃς ἂν κοιμηθῇ μετά ἄρσενος κοίτην γυναικός,
βδέλυγμα ἐποίησαν ἀμφότεροι· θανάτῳ θανατούσθωσαν,
ἔνοχοί εἰσιν.
English Translation
13 And whoever shall lie with a male as with a woman,
they have both wrought abomination; let them die the death,
they are guilty.
Levi:20,13
Septuagint

Corinthians 6:
9. ουτε πορνοι ουτε ειδωλολατραι ουτε μοιχοι ουτε *μαλακοι* ουτε *αρσενοκοιται*
10. ουτε κλεπται ουτε πλεονεκται , ου μεθυσοι , ου λοιδοροι , ουχ αρπαγες βασιλειαν θεου κληρονομησουσιν .

9. N(either) prostitutes, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor *soft ones*, nor *male-liers*,
10. nor thieves, nor enviers, nor drunkers, nor slanderers, nor seizers will inherit (the) Kingodm of God.

Notice, there are a number of "crimes" ranging from the more punishable "idolaters" to the less punishable "enviers".

The two Greek words in question are *soft ones* μαλακοι and *male-liers* αρσενοκοιται.

Obviously, the Greek word that literally means *soft ones* has the same meaning that it does elsewhere when Greek uses it to describe to people.

The Greek meaning is very similar to the English sense of, "He's gone soft," or lost his toughness. It has connotations of being irresponsible and living a cushy pampered life. Essencially, *soft ones* means 'lazy ones'.

The next word *male-liers* refers to a very specific idolatrous ritual. This Greek word is a direct translation of the Hebrew technical term 'lier of a male' שוכב זכר. It refers to the verse in Leviticus that says,

Leviticus 18.22
> You will not lie with a male as a woman. It is an 'idolatrous-ritual' תועבה.

In Leviticus, the verse refers to the ancient Canaanite pagan ritual where a 'male' becomes a sacred prostitute. He goes to the temple of the fertility goddess Astarte, and 'spiritually' becomes this goddess.

He dresses up in women's clothes and 'lies down' AS A 'WOMAN' somewhere near the temple. He then has [snip] sex with another man who gives him money. The man giving money is 'spiritually' giving the money to the goddess. In return he hopes that the goddess will bless him with a fertile wife and many children. Now the man who became "as a woman" takes the money and gives it to the priests of the temple as a votive offering to the goddess. The sacred prostitute hopes that in return the goddess will grant him some favor. The Hebrew technical term for this "male-as-woman" sacred prostitute is a kadesh קדש, literally meaning a 'holy one'.

I'm betting the bible burns just as well as my firewood, and also that it lacks any magical blue smoke like computers have.

I don't want wicked people to die." declares the Almighty LORD. "I want them to turn from their evil ways and live.

17And I will execute great vengeance upon them with wrathful rebukes and chastisements, and they shall know (understand and realize) that I am the Lord, when I lay My vengeance upon them.

You're not going to impress me by quoting from lexicons and dictionaries. Do me a favor, and go back to read translations of 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 before the word "homosexual" was introduced into the English language. I think you missed my entire point. By the way, the entire last quote you posted seems to prove my point from my understanding of it - I simply think his last two sentences are unnecessary conclusions. Peace, Daniel

1 [For the end, a Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came to him, when he had gone to Bersabee.]
Have mercy upon me, O God,
according to thy great mercy; and according to the multitude of thy compassions blot out my transgression.
2 Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I am conscious of mine iniquity; and my sin is continually before me. 4 Against thee only have I sinned,
and done evil before thee: that thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5 For, behold, I was conceived in iniquities,
and in sins did my mother conceive me.
6 For, behold, thou lovest truth: thou hast manifested to me the secret and hidden things of thy wisdom.
7 Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop,
and I shall be purified: thou shalt wash me,
and I shall be made whiter than snow.
8 Thou shalt cause me to hear gladness and joy:
the afflicted bones shall rejoice.
9 Turn away thy face from my sins,
and blot out all mine iniquities.
The rest of this great psalm~Psalm 50David

Originally posted by TheColdDragon
reply to post by Totakeke

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There's no way you could convince anyone with any degree or inkling of Linguistics that the bible is the infallible word of god in every translated version of it...

BECAUSE IT'S SMEGGING IMPOSSIBLE.

ACCURACY OF OUR COPIES OF THE OLD TESTAMENT

Strict regulations were enforced in the copying of Old Testament scriptures. An authentic specimen had to be used, and copyists weren't allowed to deviate from it in any way. Nothing was permitted to be written down from memory, not even a dot. If any mistakes were made, the faulty copies were either burned or buried, as was every document that showed any sign of wear. Many other precautions were also taken, some even more elaborate than these, such as the counting of every letter on each page. So it's unlikely that errors would have crept into the copying of the Old Testament.

It doesn't make sense to imagine for one moment that people who were so fanatically fastidious about the accuracy of their scriptures, and so in awe of them, would adulterate them or hack out great big portions of them. Nor would they permit others to do so. Those Jewish folk guarded their scriptures jealously and reverentially. Don't forget that the primitive church was completely Jewish, and a large number of the early church consisted of converted Jews, all of whom had this very same reverence for scripture.

In 1947 an Arab shepherd boy discovered a vast quantity of ancient manuscripts in some caves, which became known as the Dead Sea Scrolls. They pre-dated anything we'd previously possessed, and included portions of every Old Testament book except Esther. Many of the scrolls were in fragments, but those they have pieced together agree with our modern Bibles.

ACCURACY OF OUR COPIES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT

As we've learned more about ancient biblical languages we have been able to translate them more precisely. But this hasn't changed the actual meaning of the content in any way.

We possess more than 3,000 New Testament manuscripts dating from the fourth century. A few of these have minor variations. However, as most of them do agree, it's an easy matter to sort out which are the reliable texts.

Some copies of John's writings dating from 200 AD have come to light. They agree with our Bibles. We also have the writings of the apostolic fathers and the church fathers. (The apostolic fathers were the disciples of the apostles, and the church fathers were the disciples of the apostolic fathers.) Their combined writings contain the entire New Testament, except sixteen verses, which are only the introductions to the epistles. And their versions of the New Testament scriptures agree with our modern translations. Furthermore, besides these, there were literally thousands of other early Christian writings citing verses from the Bible, that agree with our Bibles of today. So we can rest assured that our modern New Testament is in line with the original writings.


In real terms, the New Testament is easily the best attested ancient writing in terms of the sheer number of documents, the time span between the events and the document, and the variety of documents available to sustain or contradict it. There is nothing in ancient manuscript evidence to match such textual availability and integrity (Ravi K. Zacharias, page 162, "Can Man Live Without God? " Word Publishing, 1994.)


Luke wrote two books, his gospel and the book of Acts. Because he never mentioned either the destruction of Jerusalem that occurred in 70 A.D.or the apostle Paul's execution, these books must have been written some time after the imprisonment of Paul but prior to his appearing before Nero. This dates them within thirty years of Christ's ministry. And in their book "Eyewitness to Jesus," German and British scholars Drs. Carsten Theide and Matthew D'Ancona refer to a fragment from the Gospel of Matthew, that scientific evidence revealed was also written before AD 70, possibly as early as AD 30. This means that these three books, and probably all the others too, were written and circulated during the lifetime of the eyewitnesses to the events recorded. So they would have been able to vouch for their accuracy.

Because of the overwhelming evidence available, it is unlikely that errors could have crept into our versions of either the Old or New Testaments.