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The ancient custom of shrine prostitution, prevalent in first century Rome, forms the historical motif of the first chapter of Romans. Ancient shrine prostitution is the most historically accurate explanation of Paul’s words in Romans chapter 1.
Non-gay Christians insist that Romans 1 must be interpreted apart from its first century historical context of shrine prostitution. This causes them to misinterpret Paul's words, specifically the words, "against nature" as a universal condemnation of homosexuality, something Paul never intended and never said.
Cybele was an ancient fertility goddess, called "the Protectress of Rome," whose pagan temple loomed over first century Rome from atop the Palatine Hill. In Cybele’s temple, castrated Galli priests engaged in anal sex with men, in unholy worship of Cybele.
The religious situation Paul faced in first century Rome involved Romans and shrine prostitution.
Paul’s argument about Romans and shrine prostitution contains clear inter-textual echoes from Psalm 106:20 and Jeremiah 2:11. These verses speak of Gentile idolatry which drew Israel away from God. The context of Psalm 106 is lust, v. 14, and God giving sinful Israel what they want, v. 15. Then comes the description to which Paul alludes in Romans 1.
“they changed their glory into the similitude of an ox... They forgat God their savior [did not like to retain God in their knowledge, Romans 1:28]
...were mingled with the heathen... they served their idols... they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils [Molech worship], And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan [Molech worship, Leviticus 18:21]” Psalm 106:20-38.
“Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory [changed the glory, Romans 1:23], for that which doth not profit.” Jeremiah 2:11.
“...because they have made their groves, provoking the LORD to anger. And he shall give Israel up because of the sins of Jereboam, who did sin, and who made Israel to sin...
For they also built them high places, and images, and groves, on every high hill, and under every green tree. And there were also sodomites, [qadesh, shrine prostitutes], in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.” I Kings 14:15-24.
“Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them...” Acts 7:42-43.
The leading antigay apologist of our time, Dr. Robert Gagnon, cites Philo, 20 BC-AD 50, to support his assertion that male cult prostitutes (shrine prostitutes) were well known to first century Jews, although, in Gagnon’s opinion Paul did not primarily have shrine prostitution in mind in Romans 1.
The primary focus of Paul’s condemnation in Romans 1 is the illicit sexual practice of shrine prostitution, the same illicit sexual practice in worship of the fertility goddess, which is condemned throughout the Old Testament. Thus, Paul's argument in Romans 1, against shrine prostitution, is consistent with the Biblical witness.
Remember that Dr. Gagnon is adamantly anti-gay, Yet, in a section of his book headed "Homosexual Cult Prostitution in Israel," Dr. Gagnon makes the following points about shrine prostitutes.
As you read keep in mind that this summary from The Bible And Homosexual Practice, represents the scholarly viewpoint of Dr. Robert Gagnon, the most anti-gay evangelical of the twenty first century.
Although it was not his intention, I believe Dr. Gagnon's list strongly supports our contention that shrine prostitution best fits the Biblical and historical context of Paul's argument in Romans 1.
1. There is good evidence that homosexual cult prostitution existed in Israel, Gagnon, p. 100.
2. The words qedesim and qades refer to men at pagan temples who engaged in male-male, religious prostitution, Gagnon, p. 101.
3. It was the function of the qedesim to offer their bodies to pagan male worshippers for sex, Gagnon, p. 102.
4. I Kings 14:24 links the abominations-toebah, of Israel and Judah, to the abominations of the nations God expelled from the land of Israel.
These abominations particularly single out male-male sex in worship of the ancient fertility gods, Gagnon, p. 103.
5. The existence of assinu, kugarru and kuluu, castrated male worshippers of the fertility goddess, is good evidence that male-male cult prostitution existed in the ancient near east, Gagnon, p. 104.
6. God’s use of the epithet “dog” in Deuteronomy 23:18, to describe cult prostitutes, reveals His revulsion for same sex religious prostitution, Gagnon, p. 104.
7. King Josiah’s forceful action to eradicate the qedesim must have been directly related to Moses’ law in Deuteronomy 23:18, concerning qedesim-dogs, Gagnon, p. 106.
8. The author of Job 36:14 viewed the qedesim as male cult, shrine, temple prostitutes, Gagnon, p. 108.
9. That cult prostitutes were religious in nature is implied by their name, which means holy or consecrated ones and by their connection to Asherah. The prostitution aspect is clear from Deuteronomy 23:18. They were paid for services they provided and they are identified as harlots, in other Biblical passages, Gagnon, p. 108.
Originally posted by Deaf Alien
reply to post by grapesofraft
Like I said, those verses have pretty much been debunked in other threads. The focus is on Romans 1:26-27. If you want, we can discuss those verses you mentioned.
BTW, the verses in Leviticus is also about pagan worship. Read the whole context.
Well the only way you can debunk them is to make up a bunch of BS and try to twist the meaning. They are as clear as day. There are no exceptions in those verses. I am sure if God wanted their to be exceptions he would have had them put in their.
You can believe what you want, but it isnt going to make it come true.
The Bible clearly states OVER AND OVER AGAIN that Homosexuality in any form is a detestable sin. It never once mentions it in a positive light.
Please, dont get mad at me. I didnt write it.
The issues seems to be more with the sexual act than the love feelings.
Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by Deaf Alien
Also, I did go back and read the Leviticus verses in context and both are in the middle of a list of other sexual sins. Nothing around it has to do with idol worship.
At this point, there is a break in topic being discussed. The chapter switches to a condemnation of false forms of worship in general, and the worship of the Pagan god Molech in particular. Like many other Pagan temples, those dedicated to Molech had temple prostitutes. His followers believed that engaging in sexual activity with these prostitutes would please Molech and "... increase the fertility of themselves, their spouses, their livestock and their fields."
Why place them in the context of pagan worship, and never outside?
Leviticus 20
1 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Give the people of Israel these instructions, which apply both to native Israelites and to the foreigners living in Israel.
“If any of them offer their children as a sacrifice to Molech, they must be put to death. The people of the community must stone them to death. 3 I myself will turn against them and cut them off from the community, because they have defiled my sanctuary and brought shame on my holy name by offering their children to Molech. 4 And if the people of the community ignore those who offer their children to Molech and refuse to execute them, 5 I myself will turn against them and their families and will cut them off from the community. This will happen to all who commit spiritual prostitution by worshiping Molech.
6 “I will also turn against those who commit spiritual prostitution by putting their trust in mediums or in those who consult the spirits of the dead. I will cut them off from the community. 7 So set yourselves apart to be holy, for I am the Lord your God. 8 Keep all my decrees by putting them into practice, for I am the Lord who makes you holy.
9 “Anyone who dishonors[a] father or mother must be put to death. Such a person is guilty of a capital offense.
10 “If a man commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife, both the man and the woman who have committed adultery must be put to death.
11 “If a man violates his father by having sex with one of his father’s wives, both the man and the woman must be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.
12 “If a man has sex with his daughter-in-law, both must be put to death. They have committed a perverse act and are guilty of a capital offense.
13 “If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.
14 “If a man marries both a woman and her mother, he has committed a wicked act. The man and both women must be burned to death to wipe out such wickedness from among you.
15 “If a man has sex with an animal, he must be put to death, and the animal must be killed.
16 “If a woman presents herself to a male animal to have intercourse with it, she and the animal must both be put to death. You must kill both, for they are guilty of a capital offense.
17 “If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a shameful disgrace. They must be publicly cut off from the community. Since the man has violated his sister, he will be punished for his sin.
18 “If a man has sexual relations with a woman during her menstrual period, both of them must be cut off from the community, for together they have exposed the source of her blood flow.
19 “Do not have sexual relations with your aunt, whether your mother’s sister or your father’s sister. This would dishonor a close relative. Both parties are guilty and will be punished for their sin.
20 “If a man has sex with his uncle’s wife, he has violated his uncle. Both the man and woman will be punished for their sin, and they will die childless.
21 “If a man marries his brother’s wife, it is an act of impurity. He has violated his brother, and the guilty couple will remain childless.
22 “You must keep all my decrees and regulations by putting them into practice; otherwise the land to which I am bringing you as your new home will vomit you out. 23 Do not live according to the customs of the people I am driving out before you. It is because they do these shameful things that I detest them. 24 But I have promised you, ‘You will possess their land because I will give it to you as your possession—a land flowing with milk and honey.’ I am the Lord your God, who has set you apart from all other people.
25 “You must therefore make a distinction between ceremonially clean and unclean animals, and between clean and unclean birds. You must not defile yourselves by eating any unclean animal or bird or creature that scurries along the ground. I have identified them as being unclean for you. 26 You must be holy because I, the Lord, am holy. I have set you apart from all other people to be my very own.
27 “Men and women among you who act as mediums or who consult the spirits of the dead must be put to death by stoning. They are guilty of a capital offense.”
If any of them offer their children as a sacrifice to Molech
The chapters before and after chapter 18 deal extensively with idolatry. We can therefore expect that much of chapter 18 will deal with the same topic.
Verse 22 is translated in the King James Version as: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
If the verse is considered in isolation -- as it is most often done -- then a logical interpretation is that the verse condemns all sexual activity between two males.
If Leviticus 18:22 is considered in the context of its surrounding chapters and previous verse, then one might expect that it refers to some forbidden idolatrous activity in a Pagan temple from which the ancient Israelites must separate themselves.
What the hell does a "Scholar" know more than you? That's the damned problem with religion is all the "experts".
Your relationship with God is supposed to be very personal. It's what YOU feel.
Not to mention all this crap from the Old Testament NO LONGER APPLIES.
Quit trying to make people believe that your behavior is OK and just do what you want. There shouldn't be any discussion on what you do in your private life.
1Kings 14:24 And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.
Originally posted by jackflap
reply to post by Deaf Alien
1Kings 14:24 And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.
Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by Deaf Alien
LMAO, I am sure I could find 10 bible scholars that would say the scholar you are quoting is wrong. We all know there are scholars for both sides of the fence, so that doesnt help your case other then its better than having no scholars support your side.
It is clear that the whole chapter of Leviticus is a laundry list of sins. The ones regarding Molech being the first thing, because nothing pisses off God more than idol worship. Remember, he is a jealous God.
But you can keep trying to twist it to make it seem like it is accepted.
As far as Jesus not saying it was a sin, there are tons of sins he doesnt mention. He didnt need to. The law was clearly defined by then. He clearly states that the old laws still apply, but He is a path to forgiveness.