The Conspiracy To Twist Bible Verses To Suit Their Antigay Agenda - Romans 1:26-27

Originally posted by John Matrix
You use birth control pills, condoms, or some other form of birth control, otherwise you live with your consequences.

yeah except they are all modern inventions. things designed to deal with those consequences.

following god's laws dont leave you facing consequences

If it's consensual sex, it cannot be adultery. Adultery involves breaking vows and cheating. You cannot be cheating if it's consensual.

it literally sounds to me like you are just rolling in justifications so that you can have "fun"

the meaning of the words "fornication" and "adultery" are not mysteries of some forgotten language

Originally posted by Chronogoblin
reply to post by Nammu

 

That is the most telling thing I have seen on this thread. To have a rabbi tell us exactly what it meant, that's very enlightening. It is almost as interesting that your post got pretty much completely ignored by the usual anti-gay people in favor of their own tired rhetoric.

its cherry picking. some rabbi comes up with a more liberal and popular view and suddenly this is "truth"

i already explained in a previous post how the connection to idol worship is tedious at best

I find it to be very interesting that the name of the book is The Instructions of the Priestly Officiants. That tells me that it is like the rules that the jewish priests are supposed to abide by, similar to the rules catholic priests have rules to abide by. That doesn't mean they apply to everyone. Does all of humanity have to take vows of chastity and celibacy? No. Just the priesthood (and not even all of those?).

except leviticus was not solely for the levites. entire chapters were devoted to israel as a whole including chapters 18, 19, 20.

Just to hit on this statement again. You can not cherry pick who or what are sins. Here is a short list that I m sure we all have broken at least one
www.11points.com...

So once again Why attack just the homosexuals? If you are going to go after them go after the Red Lobster crowd, Anyone that buys any clothing they dont hand make, and chuck that gold wedding ring.

Originally posted by miriam0566

following god's laws dont leave you facing consequences

Tell that to the original 11 of the 12 disciples that suffered a martyrs death through various means of torture. Oh, sorry, Judas suffered consequences but not a martyr's death. John was the only one I know of that died of old age. There are consequences for every choice you make, even if it's serving God.

I sense you are trying to be too idealistic. A lot of ideals found in scripture only work in an ideal world, and this world is far from that. Love your neighbour as yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto yourself. Desire the Christ Nature, which manifests as the Fruit of the Spirit spoken of in Galatians.

If it's consensual sex, it cannot be adultery. Adultery involves breaking vows and cheating. You cannot be cheating if it's consensual.

it literally sounds to me like you are just rolling in justifications so that you can have "fun"

And we must not have fun, that would be a sin. We must go through life tormented every waking moment without any fun.(sarcasm)

What you do, do from faith and your conscience will not condemn you. Anything done apart from faith is sin. Read Romans.

I feel sorry for you. What do you do to have fun? Bake brownies for the women's ministry coffee/gossip club?

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
I was having an interesting discussiong with someone in ATS chat room the other day. He wasn't against homosexuality but after I told him that the Bible never said that homosexuality was a sin, he showed me the verses Romans 1:26-27. I told him that it was in the context of ritual worship.

Actually, it wasn't. Homosexuality (and pedophilia) was an old practice in Rome... somewhat looked down on, but known. Julius Caesar was reportedly bisexual (documents exist about some of his parties) and, of course, the Spartans had society-wide homosexual pedophilia.

He brought up a good point. Even if it was in the context of pagan temple worship, it still shows that homosexuality was unnatural as a consequence.

I think he should probably read the entire chapter and see the verses within the context of the chapter. Like many, he seems to just read a few verses and sees them as stand-alones.

This is a letter to the people of Rome.

Paul says that they had the opportunity to worship Jesus (or God) and they didn't, and because they rejected Paul's deity, that they were "given up" to "evil practices."

Paul, no historian, rants about things that had been common practices in the Ancient World for thousands of years.

In reading the Greek texts, you find that the implication is that God sent these practices to them (in other words, that God turned them "evil".)

By the way, there were no "sacred prostitutes" at Roman temples. That practice was Sumerian/Babylonian, and had been gone for thousands of years by the time Paul got around to his screed. Romans didn't think highly of prostitutes... and they were found in brothels and bathhouses of that time.

Allright, let's recap:

The primary focus of Paul’s condemnation in Romans 1 is the illicit sexual practice of shrine prostitution, the same illicit sexual practice in worship of the fertility goddess, which is condemned throughout the Old Testament. Thus, Paul's argument in Romans 1, against shrine prostitution, is consistent with the Biblical witness.

Which is wrong, actually. Demeter and so forth did not have sacred prostitutes. Ishtar did, however. Gagnon neglects his homework, and lumps all religions under "pagan". This is further evidence of very poor scholarship, since the worshipers of Bast had very different practices than the worshipers of Demeter and the worshipers of Bacchus (they didn't have shrine prostitutes, either.) The Norse certainly didn't have divine prostitutes, nor did the Germanic tribes nor Celtic tribes, nor any of the people of India... and so on for a very lengthy list.

There are, however, a number of instances where Israelites offered their daughters or female members of their households as prostitutes in order to secure a vow:
www.jstor.org...

1. There is good evidence that homosexual cult prostitution existed in Israel, Gagnon, p. 100.

2. The words qedesim and qades refer to men at pagan temples who engaged in male-male, religious prostitution, Gagnon, p. 101.

Again, horrible scholarship. Those are Sumerian words. As a number of other books say, it can't actually be proved that there were male sex workers at these shrines:
books.google.com...< br />

5. The existence of assinu, kugarru and kuluu, castrated male worshippers of the fertility goddess, is good evidence that male-male cult prostitution existed in the ancient near east, Gagnon, p. 104.

Again, bad scholarship. Castration is a vow of chastity and sacrifice... not prostitution... and used in the worship of Cybele: en.wikipedia.org...

Note that some Christian groups also practiced castration to remove themselves from the temptation for sex.

It should be clear by now that the chapter is about idolatry and pagan worship.

Actually, it's about Paul's denunciation and blanket blackening other religions and his attempts to keep his growing flock away from other religions (branded as "pagan" in a very broad brush... the "us versus them" tactic.)

Paul's scholarship is pretty shoddy, as I said.

Originally posted by KiliRae
Just to hit on this statement again. You can not cherry pick who or what are sins. Here is a short list that I m sure we all have broken at least one
www.11points.com...

So once again Why attack just the homosexuals? If you are going to go after them go after the Red Lobster crowd, Anyone that buys any clothing they dont hand make, and chuck that gold wedding ring.

I agree. The list of sins are to demonstrate to everyone that all of us fall short of keeping God's commands.....which is why Christ enters the picture. Christ pays the price for our sins once and for all when we repent and accept Him as our Lord and follow after Him(imitate his divine character and nature until it become established in us).

Repent means we turn from those things. Therefore, homosexuals have to repent and turn away from that activity. It will be a struggle, but if they hold to their faith in God and their commitment to Him, they will get through it and overcome that behavior.

Originally posted by arbiture
I assure with and without any question I was born this way the way I was born right-handed. I'm 48 and most of my life I would have given almost any thing not to be gay.

I have heard this same comment from many gay people, including my own daughter. I don't know that many folks are aware that almost all gays tried the "heterosexual" lifestyle and it was as painful and uncomfortable as... well, as I guess it would be for me to be forced into a homosexual relationship.

I know some people who say "well animals are never gay". Wrong again. A History channel program, (I think history ch, one of those any way) showed we have gay activity in a number of animals.

Actually, in most species of animals.

We don't know why, but lack of opposite sex mates seems to be a driving factor. Kind of reminds you of prison.

No... bisexuality operates that way, with those who have a certain tendency to bisexuality being able to make that sexual connection and be satisfied. But true homosexuality exists (and is a problem for people who breed animals)... there are male animals of all domestic species who simply will NOT breed with a female. You have to use artificial insemination if you want their offspring.

Originally posted by John Matrix
reply to post by sezsue

 

Marriage is simply a consensual agreement made between a man and a woman before God. Sex outside of marriage means sex beyond what the married couple agree to. If they agree to have an orgy with other consenting adults, that is not sex outside of marriage.

As a matter of fact, there are no marriage vows in scripture. There are marriage ceremonies and feasts. It is perfectly possible for married people to have consensual sex with others without breaking their vows, or breaking up their marriages, and without destroying the love they have for each other. In fact, some people claim sharing in sexual experiences with others has made their marriage stronger.

It just burns me up to hear people talk about sex as though it is evil, yet those same people love money, spread rumors, gossip, slander people, lie, cheat, steal, get angry at others for unjust causes, hurt others, cause prejudice, etc.

I certainly don't think sex is evil! After all, it was created by God, and the proof is in the fact that men and womens' bodies complement each other, and when used as God intended, create life, as God intended.

There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that God had a problem with men and women who were united in marriage enjoying the physical act of sex with one another. As a matter of fact, in the New Testament, Paul addressed this very subject, stating that his preference was for singlehood, because that way he could wholeheartedly serve the Lord, but that if peoples lusts were causing them to sin, it would be better for that person to get married, so as to be able to enjoy that closeness to the opposite sex, than to sin.

As far as people that are married committing adultery, it doesn't matter if they both agree, God doesn't agree with this behavior, and calls it a sin. He doesn't say, don't commit adultery, it's a sin, unless both parties know about it and agree to it, does He? Where?

In my Bible, it says if a married man commits adultery, even if the woman he commits adultery with is not married, she is an adulterer too, and vice versa.

For all of the posters who have bemoaned the fact that some people tend to pick and choose out of the Bible, and stress or isolate those verses that appear to uphold what they want to believe, I agree with you. Both the negative and the good can be pulled out of place and made to appear to be something it is not.

That is why the whole Bible has to be read and studied, which the Bible itself tells us when it tells us this:

15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The above taken out of Timothy 2

reply to post by sezsue


You made your point but you did not prove it.
I invite you to prove it.
No one has done it successfully yet.
I'm open to change. But I need solid proof.

Yours is the traditionally view, mine is not.
If ALL involved are consenting to play, I do not believe it is adultery because no one is cheating on the other.

At the risk of overloading my poor server... I wrote this essay several years ago in an attempt to put all this crap to rest once and for all in the minds of my parents; it was inconclusively helpful. Perhaps it will be more help here. It's a bit of a long read, but that's because it deals with every Bible verse related to this issue. Those with short attention spans might want to just read the Genesis 19 and Matthew 22 parts. Real thought provokers, as it were.

Open your mind, then open the link, and let the latter wise up the former. Please.

reply to post by John Matrix

Thank you for your gracious reply to me. I can't remember the particular section that admonition came from but I will look, though I may have been thinking of Matthew 19 v 9, see below.

In the meantime, just type in the words *fornication* and *adultery* as keywords at Biblegateway.com Keyword search. (or follow the links below)

If you check the links, you will see that it is pretty obvious that God equates both fornication and adultery to worshiping other gods and idol worship as well as sexual sin.

In fact, the New Testament tells us in Matthew 19 v 9

9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Above, it basically says if you divorce a spouse for fornication, and then remarry, YOU are not committing adultery, but whomever would marry your spouse that you divorced for fornication, would be an adulterer as well.

God tells us He will punish both the individual that partakes in such and the nations that allow such things. He may let it go on for a little while to give all a chance to repent, but eventually He will put a stop to that behavior, as in Sodom and Gomorrah. There are many such examples in scripture.

fornication

adultery

Just a note, John Matrix, I have agreed with some of your posts in this thread, and have even starred them!

But I have to disagree with you on the "it's ok if all agree" thing.

God Bless

Originally posted by John Matrix
According to the Bible, the marriage bed remains undefiled. In other words, there are no limitations when consent is given by all parties, provided that no one is being physically hurt.

Sorry, that is not what I have read in the Bible…

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Originally posted by KiliRae
If you are going to go after them go after the Red Lobster crowd, Anyone that buys any clothing they dont hand make, and chuck that gold wedding ring.

Jewish traditions and laws do not apply to gentiles. The only laws that God directly gave mankind to follow are the ten commandments. The Jewish stuff has more to do with the covenant between the Jews and God, that they would be his people and he would bring about the messiah through their line.

What we have here, seems to be the same old ugly conflict rearing up between the two factions of Bible believers, with a new (modern?) twist added.

First we have the Old Testament 'True Believers'. If you accept these writings, then you have to suffer the fact that basically everything you do is going to make God angry at some point: it might be eating a crow, it might be touching his magic box, or he might get angry at you for no apparent reason at all (see the story about God barging into Moses' tent one night). If you believe the Old Testament, then you have to accept that God will get you for something sooner or later - unless of course he likes you, like David.

As has been previously stated, many Christians like to pick the parts they agree with and turn a blind eye to the parts that might actually apply to themselves. Lots of Jews seem happy to do this as well.

That leads into the second congregation. This is the touchy-feely New Testament believer that feels that, somehow, Jesus - despite being the very Son of God and an inextricable part of Him - sort of gives an 'E' ticket to paradise if you only believe. Forget about what the old man said! That was in the past. Things are different now. (huh? I thought this stuff was eternal?)

Problem with that theory is that Jesus himself talked about the Final Judgment in which loads of self-professed believers would get the straight shaft to hell. Why would that be? For, uhhh, I don't know, possibly transgressing the Law? Further diminishing the aforementioned point of view is that, by all indications, Jesus himself was an observant Jew. Although the records are somewhat sketchy on the actual specifics, it seems that Jesus must have been pretty strict with keeping the Jewish laws or else he wouldn't have been allowed to do a lot of things he is reported to have done; teaching in the Temple, sitting with the priests, etc. Basically, everything implies that he was ritually pure enough to go about his business without being called out on it. He also said some stuff about following the law and fulfilling the law and so on. But we can just skim over that part as 'believers'.

The third faction here is the revisionists. Often, revisionists can give us a fresh new perspective on the way things were. Just as often, they just make crap up to suit their needs. This is some of what we have seen here. If one can make the argument that the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality - and in fact may condone(!) it - then one can surely make a solid argument that it doesn't really condemn murder or theft as well. Play the semantics, play the translations and etymologies all you want. But it seems pretty apparent in all versions that men having sex with men is not looked upon with favor. Show me a passage where it clearly states that it is NOT a big deal and I'll accept your revisionist theory.

Listen, either abide by the rules of the Bible or don't, I personally don't care. But please don't try to sell me on the fact that you believe it but you want it to read in a certain way to suit your own needs. It seems pretty clear about what you aren't allowed to do. Me, I'm still eating at Red Lobster.

Originally posted by Byrd
This is a letter to the people of Rome.

Paul says that they had the opportunity to worship Jesus (or God) and they didn't, and because they rejected Paul's deity, that they were "given up" to "evil practices."

Paul, no historian, rants about things that had been common practices in the Ancient World for thousands of years.

In reading the Greek texts, you find that the implication is that God sent these practices to them (in other words, that God turned them "evil".)

Not exactly. You make it sound like God was the bad guy here, which is not the case. Sin exists, not because God made it, but rather because God exists. Anything that falls short of the perfection of God is sin. Man was granted grace under God until he rejected it, at which point he became subject to the rules of the world, and the penalties of sin. This world is not Gods world, which is pointed out clearly in the Bible, its Satan’s world:

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

If you reject the protection of God then Satan and sin basically have free reign to mess up your life, which is what happened here. God cannot protect you if you reject him.

Even in this thread I see people stating: “Well why would a loving God send people to hell for all eternity simply for doing human things and sinning”. Well the fact is that God does not send you to hell, it’s sin and being subject to this world that sends you to hell. All that someone has to do to avoid that is accept the hand of grace that God offers us to protect us from this world, sin, and Satan, yet there are still folks who refuse to do even that. Its not because of anything God has done, its because they have hardened their hearts against God:

Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Joh 12:39 - Therefore now they could not believe - That is, by the just judgment of God, for their obstinacy and wilful resistance of the truth, they were at length so left to the hardness of their hearts, that neither the miracles nor doctrines of our Lord could make any impression upon them –Wesley

This is why Christians are not to continue to preach to people who reject them:

Luk 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

Because you cannot change the heart of a person who has hardened it against God, as it’s impossible for God to work in their heart. For example someone with a hardened heart will read the same piece of scripture that I will, and will just not grasp the deeper meanings behind what is written because the Spirit is not working in their heart.

Gay is a state of demon posessed person. I hope true Christians can rebuke the demon, and you should be able to see Megan Fox sexy ness once again, marry and be a normal human. If you refuse, HELL is your place, you will be burn there with your gay friends like once happened in Sodom and Gomorah. Do you really think God stopped working and stoped destroying sinners? one last time His Rage will come upon Humans and that will be the end of times. Come and join me in search of The Kingdom of God.

The Kingdom that have no taxes, and a system corrupt free that we shall feel the way like Adam was when God created him and before the apple scandal. In this Kingdom people are trully free and happy, overjoyed with laughter and jumping in Joy. The exstassy never known to modern human being.

Out of couriousity, I want you to think this through. Government, Church leader contains of few people, why the multitude of people follow them? Because they are smart and the most important thing is we let them. didn't we? The bible said, if you see a certain kind of people on the throne of this earth (corrupt leaders) it's time to flee to the mountains. Join me?

Actually, no. It was only until recent (this century) was the verses actually used against homosexuality. I will not mention the other verses in the Bible because they have been debunked throughoutly in other threads.




The only reason it wasnt used on a mass basis prior to the last century is that if one were a homosexual they were ashamed and kept it in the closet. It was not talked about or flaunted, it wasnt up for discussion it was common knowledge that it was wrong...The only ones twisting the Bible to fit their beliefs are the ones that are doing wrong. Period... The end...

reply to post by miriam0566

as i said in my previous post, that is a thin thread to hang on since "tow'ebah" has other meaning as well, including moral connotations.

That's why i stated in my previous post that a lot of things are lost in translations, therefore the english version of the bible cannot be relied on.

not only that, but several of the verses have nothing to do with temple prostitution or priestly duties (9-12, 14-21). so then why does 13 suddenly apply only to pagan rituals?

another point is that just because this is the book of leviticus, doesnt mean it was only directed to the levites.

I'll re-quote from my previous post:

In fact, the text of the Book of Leviticus was originally written as an instruction manual for the priestly tribe, and referred to PRIESTLY prohibitions only. The original name of the Book of Leviticus (which name comes from the Greek Septuagint) was in Hebrew "ספר תורת הכהנים SEFER TORAT HAKOHANIM" (The Instructions of the Priestly Officiants).

No, it's The Instructions of the Priestly Officiants. Instructions for priests.

added to that is the fact that all fornication (homosexual AND heterosexual) is condemned by the bible

Yup. Any sex outside marriage isn't allowed. It doesn't matter if it's hetero or homosexual. But lets not forget that wearing clothes made from wool and linen is also forbidden Gotta love those rules!

Originally posted by John Matrix
Stop, Look, and Listen!!

There are no homosexuals. Not in the sense that we are being led to believe. You are people like the rest of us. You have same sex desires and fetishes. So what? We ALL have some sort of fetish, like it or not. You people have developed same sex fetishes due to a constellation of events in your lives. At some point in your life the thought came into your head. Then you entertained that thought which gave it root in your mind. The root grew into a tree with many branches growing throughout your mind. You are responsible for that mindset that you allowed to take root and grow. You fed the tree with more thoughts. Then you decided to get support from other people who went through the same thought acceptance process. But that's all it is.....a fetish. It's something you think about and something that turns you on. Great! Have fun with it. But don't force your fetish on the rest of us. Stop trying to control the majority with your fetish by attempting to give yourselves special status, when the only thing that makes you special is nothing more than a sexual fetish. It's a Damned fetish for cripe sakes!!

If you think the bible is wrong, or that it supports your having a same sex fetish(and practicing it....YUCK!!) then go with it....have fun. But leave the rest of us alone and get the hell out of our faces because some of us puke at the thought of what you even do in private.

Sure, proctologists love you because they get paid for hemorrhoid operations when you damage each other by the way you pretend to have sex, which mocks the human ability to procreate.

People are getting tired of these threads. If you were to act like other fetish groups and keep a low profile, then you would not be fighting and arguing with the majority all the time.

Haven't you got anything better to do? I mean come on!! Is that all you ever think about is a same sex fetish? What? You want to convince the rest of society that it's great, fun, acceptable, so you can have more sex partners? Is that it? Go away!

You can think about same sex and still inherit the Kingdome of Heaven. You can even have same sex thoughts, and still enter the Kingdome of Heaven. But if you are practicing same sex, you will Not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

Play your word games however you want, but the Bible is clear on that.

John Matrix, You are my hero... That was the best explination for homosexuality I have ever had the pleasure of reading. We do all have fetishes but we are all tempted by satan in one way or another. It is up to us to reject the foulness of sin. We are all human flesh and born into sin, yea we are born that way (to be tempted by sin), but we are NOT born to be gay...

Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by OnlyHuman

 

I think what you need to accept is that ALL OF US, straight or gay are sinners and many of our sins are an abomination and are detestable to God. So you are no different than the rest of us.

According to the Bible, Jesus died so we would all have a path to forgiveness and reconciliation with God.

We all have sins that we stumble on over and over, but the thing to do is to keep asking forgiveness and try not to get hung up on the guilt of it because you are forgiven.

As you can infer from my display name - "OnlyHuman" - I agree with you that I am not without fault. Someday we will all find out the truth, and perhaps I'll be proven wrong or perhaps others will be proven wrong. In the meantime, I'll respect other's beliefs and struggles as long as they respect my own.