Shock: Inside the Obama Healthcare Bill

Originally posted by whitl103
Nice work.

It would be great if you used proper English in your OP so I could feel more comfortable forwarding this analysis to others, especially those less open-minded about the corruption of the government.

Another one who does not read or has reading comprehension problems.
Follow the links. It is NOT my words and I'm not going to clean it up for you. Do you want me to come over to your house and turn your computer on and off for you also? Damn! Some people are just never happy.

Originally posted by tsloan
ONCE AGAIN....Show me where that differs from any other government service that falls under the discrimination act? This is a provision that is written into every government document... You are selling me FOX news talking points here pal...gotta bring it better than that.

It's not my fault you cannot see the wording in front of you. Do you understand the wording of the text? I am not here to show you anything.

The dems actually defeated an amendment which specifically would have banned illegals from Obama's plan. Why would they do this? Hmm...
Newsmax

Plus Obama specifically said that his plan is for the 46 million who have no health insurance right? This is not in dispute. Guess what? That 46 million figure includes illegals. The 46 million is from the Census burea.

Regardless of whether you believe it or not, it's true. Illegals WILL have access to Obama's health plan.

[edit on 7/22/2009 by WhatTheory]

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by ZindoDoone That's along the Canadian border and the reason for that is all the Canadian customers they get because of the rationing that is happening in Canada. Waiting 60 days for and 'Emergency MRI' doesn't sound like the type of health care model I want for my country!

Sorry, I'd have to call that a lie. Nobody waits 60 days for an emergency MRI. If it's that critical, and no facilities are available, it's the government that takes you to a US clinic. This system isn't perfect, but don't try to build a case against an American plan by constructing straw men up here.

I got cured of cancer for $32 out of pocket. The Prime Minister would get the same treatment by the same doctor...maybe save the parking fee. The rubbie on the corner would get the same treatment by the same doctor, and a cab ride, I suppose.

That's not Kumbyah...that's simply civilised.

Johnny, I didn't make this up. We've had three days of Canadians interviewed that gave perfect examples of what I posted. Here's some other information. Even your own representatives come here rather than use your system!

Canadian care

Canadian Health care: Fact vs. Fiction

Zindo

Originally posted by dannyfal
reply to post by Question

 

Oh, and if you think the government hasn't handed YOU anything.... your completely delusional. where do you think the schools, roads, post office, etc. come from?

there are better ways to express your opinion other than making yourself look like a fool

Actualy your wrong there. The gov't dosn't fund any of those things. Schools fall under the DoE, Roads fall under the DoT, Post office went private ownership 20 years ago and dosn't fall under any Gov't department. Also the TAX PAYER pays for all of the above. Not the Gov't. Will be paying the next 300 years. And whats that got to do with the HC bill?
Or are you just on a rant?

I have to agree that if this passes we will see a mass exodus of docs from the medical profession. They are already burnt out from dealing with the private insurance companies and then throw fed.gov on top of the whole thing, telling them how to treat, how much they can treat, lowering profits etc. then the docs are just not going to stick around and our medical schools will empty.

As others, I see a great opportunity for drug dealers to expand their wares into pharmaceuticals. Cocaine or antibiotics? Can't get in to see your doc? Just visit your dealer for those antibiotics. Of course they might be able to shut that down because they will just look at your bank account and see you took out cash and demand to see receipts of what it was spent on.

I see a lot of folks against illegals getting free health care. I am against that too but FYI illegals already have all the free health care they want. It's called EMTALA and mandates the emergency rooms treat whoever presents themselves for treatment to the current "standard of care". If not fed.gov comes in and hits things with its big stick.

EMTALA care for illegals is another contributing factor to our current health care problem because most of that care is charity care forced on the hospitals. They have to make up the cost somewhere so they raise their prices for the insured, which causes rates to rise etc.

Incidentally, federal oversight of the hospital system mandates that hospitals have a certain amount of operating budget available, days cash on hand. If it drops below the level the fed.gov sets then they step in and take over the hospital. As we've seen with medicare/medicaid fed.gov has repeatedly dropped the amount they will pay and it is likely we would see further "price fixing" with a new system like this. That in turn would push hospitals below their mandated days cash on hand and result in federal management.

It is not too far fetched to see fed.gov take over the entire healthcare industry so they will be both insurer and dispenser (rationing) of care. There is obviously a large conflict of interest there.

As I heard one of my senators remark once, "The federal government can't organize a two car parade, how are they going to manage health care?"

reply to post by dannyfal


I tried to U2U but apparently I haven't enough posts. Start with the Blues, Aetna and UHC for quotes. You want an individual policy (or family if that's your situation) with a moderate deductible. Hell, U2U me and I will walk you through the process. It's a little bit of a game but if you know the right questions to ask, you'll get what you need. Again, the previous illness will be excluded for a period of time as a pre-ex condition but you can be covered.

True story: When my oldest daughter came home and said she and her BF were getting married and oh, BTW, we're pregnant, I helped her secure a policy on her own for

i see that hippie comment being thrown around, well right now i want some hippies to start some protests so i can join

Originally posted by Question
actually, my parents are VERY proud of me because of all the accomplishments I have made through out my short life on this earth, and it was ALL done because I had a very strong work ethic, and strong principles. Even when I was unemployed during the "hard times" not only did I still find a job, but also REFUSED govt. handouts OR go to the Dept. of Labor in my state. In our family the mantra has always been "You want something? You have to WORK HARD for it! Don't wait for someone else to give it to you"

Because of that, I've been able to land in the job of my dreams (Even during a tough recession), a job many here could only WISH they could have, with benefits many here would only make them jealous. Because of this ethic, my wife is finally taking steps towards making a CAREER and not have "Just another 9-5 job". Because of this, 2 of my brothers have been able to appear on TV and be opening acts at several concerts. Ashamed? No, my parents aren't ashamed. They're proud to see their little kids took our family's work ethic to heart. That we understood that life wasn't FREE, and that if we wanted to make something of ourselves, we had to WORK for it, because we KNEW that there would always be people like YOU, FREELOADERS who will do everything in their power to take it away.

God, I hate people that spout off their accomplishments as if it's supposed to make the other jealous.

I bet 'Question' has one of those accordion photo wallets and constantly has to show off his family members to people who really don't give a crap.

Why can't you just be humble with what you attained over life? Why bring your own family into an argument just so you can feel superior?

You worked hard. Good for you! Just because you decided to take it on yourself to work hard doesn't mean you should take it out on others. You made your decision. Sounds like you're just plain bitter towards the ever-changing world.

Surprised you even made it to the online world. Welcome!

Originally posted by ZindoDoone
Johnny, I didn't make this up. We've had three days of Canadians interviewed that gave perfect examples of what I posted. Here's some other information. Even your own representatives come here rather than use your system! Canadian care

Just because somebody is Canadian, it doesn't follow that they can't be right wing hired shills for Big Health. He is no rep of ours.

Gratzer "has emerged as the go-to expert witness for GOP lawmakers hoping to sow doubt in Congress about the wisdom of embracing Mr. Obama's call for a public-health-insurance option to compete with private insurers." The article notes that arguments like Gratzer's "played a key role in the defeat 15 years ago of former president Bill Clinton's plan to reform U. S. health care." en.wikipedia.org...

...note the following exchange:

Dennis Kucinich Sets Dr. David Gratzer Straight www.youtube.com...

Canadian Health care: Fact vs. Fiction

You'll notice that the site you cite states the following from our 'rep'...

As the debate over health care reform heats up in the United States, a sub-debate of increasing significance is that of the Canadian system. Natalie Mehra, a critic of the current health care system in Canada, is an even stronger critic of those Canadians in the US decreeing the failure of the Canadian system, in favor of a privatized one. Mehra shares many of the same criticisms of the Canadian system as these figures like Dr. Brian Day do, but a completely different vision for how to overcome them.

I repeat, there is a huge effort out there to prevent Big Health from being cut out of the action, and they will buy whoever they need to to upturn the applecart. You know this.

A quick edit to say that whatever you do will have no effect on my health coverage, so go nuts. Just don't hold us up as a failed system. That's simply Bravo Sierra.

[edit on 22-7-2009 by JohnnyCanuck]

Originally posted by Zosynspiracy
Has it ever occurred to anyone that this has been a LONG TIME in the making. I mean just think about how long and how many people and how much time it takes to come up with such a HUGE and MASSIVE document. This is the exact thing with the economic bailouts. They don't come up with this overnight. This is all planned years ago. And this is why they are so hell bent on ramming this legislation through Congress.

I have been thinking that for a very long time. Especially when they pop up with 10,000 page legislation overnight! You know you are the first person that I have seen thus far that sees the same conspiritorial aspect to all of this. It smacks of a covert "progressive" (i.e. socialist/communist) agenda and or conspiracy latent in our government........

I think that my greatest concern is, who's rubber stamp has Congress and our President become????? It's one tragety when Congress (left or right)has become the Pres.'s rubber stamp by pushing legislation solely due to party politics. But when they are all pushing bills without the knowlege of what's in it (including the Pres.) you have to ask yourself "WHO ARE THEY LAYING DOWN FOR????" WHO IS HOLDING THE RUBBER STAMP THAT WE CALL OUR GOVERNMENT????? THEY HAVE IN FACT BECOME A RUBBER STAMP FOR SOMEONE.............





[edit on 22-7-2009 by lazy1981]

reply to post by whatukno


I work 40+ hours a week in a job that does provide medical benefits and I count my blessings every day that I have such a job. It's hard work, but I am thankful.

If I lost my job I would go find another one and I most likely would not take one that didn't offer at least some kind of health insurance benefit.

Do you believe that just because you work 40 hours a week that you are entitled to health insurance?

Do you honestly think that the government OWES you something like health care coverage just because you work 40 hours a week or because you pay taxes? Because I sure as hell don't believe the government owes me anything. I don't like paying taxes, but I recognize that living in these United States that paying taxes is necessary to provide for a national defense and for local city and school improvements. Seriously, man! If the worst that we Americans have to do is PAY TAXES in this country, then I am all for it! In other countries, men and women are told by their governments what jobs they will work. They scratch for food, water, warmth, clothing all while their corrupt government lives a luxurious lifestyle. This is, hands-down, the best country in the world to live in.

So the main question is, if you don't have health insurance, and want it, why haven't you gotten yourself another job? And if you don't have the skills necessary, why haven't you gone back to school with all the government programs out there that offer monetary assistance?

I would like to say thanks to dannyfal

The political strain in this country is insane and its nice when calm and reasonable individuals can bring you back down from a rant, rave or back to reality.

Cheers.

Reform healthcare but not this way.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by WhatTheory

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
Why not just say you don't like Obama and spare us the rest.

Well, I thought that was obvious.

I'm glad you finally caught up with everyone else.

If all you are going to do is make sly, snarky comments without any word about the actual bill then please keep them to yourself. Thanks!

Well it is obvious and just because I saw to mention it in this thread doesn't mean it was beyond me. And it is obvious that your politics taint anything that come into play, in my humble opinion.

As to the content you cite...this is a huge bill...it has to be to be plug-and-play for the American people. I'm sure that many of these strange little clauses are meant to plug loopholes along the way. We all know that the greatest danger to the concept of Universal Health Care for Americans is the pork along the way. The greatest criticism I see is that "The Government will screw it up"...you can't trust them.

I see where Senator Max Baucus, Chair of the Senate Finance Committee, has accepted a couple of pieces of silver from the minions of Big Health:

Here's why Baucus is not doing the people's business:

According to OpenSecrets.org, over his career he has taken donations from:

* The Insurance Industry: $1,170,313
* Health Professionals: $1,016,276
* Pharmaceuticals/Health Products Industry: $734,605
* Hospitals/Nursing Homes: $541,891
* Health Services/HMOs: $439,700

Baucus has shown his bias and should be removed from leading the health care reform effort by the Democratic Party leadership. www.commondreams.org...

There is so much crap getting in the way of an honest deal for the Americans...and God only knows, y'all deserve it...that the ways and means are going to be a matter so dense it will bend light. And there will be an army of lawyers assailing it from two fronts...one set to scuttle it, the other to bleed it. Now a corporate lawyer could dissect your post and likely come up with reasonable responses for all of your queries. Or not. But for a lay-person...as I assume you are...to present it as a partisan issue is disingenuous because you don't know what you're talking about.

Beyond slagging your President.

Which is why I restricted my comments to that action...'cuz ultimately the rest seems immaterial to you. That about cover it?

thats all laughable. Obama is not the brightest candle in the box although the PTB would have you believe he is. This bill is garbage and will ruin healthcare for most people.

Don't you people see that they are taking away your freedom of choice? What has happened in countries where healthcare has been nationalized? They come here for medicle treatment.

This is a power grab plain and simple. The blindness of the american people is stunning. Bush/Cheney took our right to privacy via the Patriot Act. Obama has thus far robbed the american tax payer, increased the power of the corrupt unaccountable fed, and is now going to ram through a bill that says big brother not you can make a better choice about the future of your health care than you can.

Its insulting that they think everyone is blind to their game. It would seem however that just enogh people are so jaded as to stop the lynch mob from forming.

just as a recap

1st amendment - Under attack

2nd amendment - Under Attack

4th amendment - dissolves under the Patriot Act

9th amendment - (which would include right to choose healthcare) - Under attack with extreme prejudice.

10th amendment - hasn't been valid in years, we lost this one long ago.

Please keep in mind though that this is coming from TPTB and is ongoing and has been. I'm not soley blaming Obama but he's just as sheepish as any other President has been.

Two words here people

POWER GRAB

[edit on 22-7-2009 by constantwonder]

reply to post by dannyfal


You are entitled to your opinion about someone looking like a fool. But, you are wrong about where those schools and services come from. The government has nothing unless they force others to pay for it. All services are paid for with yours, mine, and his tax dollars.

So get one thing staright, the government didn't provide anything to anyone. Your neighbors and family and the rest of the working people in this country did..........

Do you have any idea how most of the world looks at this? Medical care should be a god given right.

I watched once as a guy in Canada was told about a man in Florida who lost a couple fingers and was told they could save both for $60,000 one for $30,000 or just bandage and clean up for $2,500.

The Canadian freaked out and whole heartedly thought someone should be locked up over the ordeal. It is petty and cruel not to provide care for those who cannot afford it.

Also go to a Cuban Pharmacy and compare drug prices with the US. You'll be outraged that we are being so taken advantage of. There is no other place on Earth were doctors are paid so much.

America's disastrous health care system is heaving the country head-first into near-certain economic collapse. Just about everybody's either financially strained or going broke due to spiraling health care costs: the people, the employers, state governments and even the federal government. Multinational corporations are fleeing the United States due to health care costs, taking jobs and economic productivity with them. Meanwhile, 50 percent of personal bankruptcies in the U.S. are due to medical expenses.

But not everybody's doing badly. The drug companies, surgeons, medical specialists, health insurance companies and private hospitals are making out like bandits, raking in multi-million dollar CEO salaries and -- I'm not making this up -- greater than 500,000% markups on prescription drugs.

Get a clue folks the doctors and big pharma are robbing us blind.

Everyone should see Michael Moore's SiCKO documentary. It really puts it in perspective.



[edit on 22-7-2009 by Donkey_Dean]

Originally posted by Donkey_Dean
Everyone should see Michael Moore's SiCKO documentary. It really puts it in perspective.

Oh now you've gone and done it. Never mind that our America cousins can't go to a Cuban pharmacy. A star for you for addressing the elephant in the corner (now be nice!)

Let the flames erupt and the indignation fly!!

Originally posted by marg6043

I say give government insurance to those that want it and need it, but I want my insurance to stay the way it is and is my choice.

[edit on 22-7-2009 by marg6043]

Marg, under this health care plan your insurance WILL change - of that I'm certain! I'm in the same boat as you. I love the insurance I have now and I don't want to lose it. However, respectfully, please read these again and then think about something:

"pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ #AMA - The Govt will tell YOU what u can make."

"Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Doctors, doesnt matter what specialty u have, you'll all be paid the same"

"PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided 2 ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise"

"pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Govt Monop"

"PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Indiv. will b automat.enrolled in Medicaid. No choice"

Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into pub opt plan. NO CHOICE

Think about this now:

It's expensive to research and manufacture drugs. Now that hundreds of millions more people are insured and millions more will need prescriptions, is it not safe to assume that costs for producing medicine will skyrocket?

Okay. Now - the pharmaceutical companies can't pass off the extra costs to the government because the government will be telling them, insurance companies and doctors what the government will be paying them. Pharmaceuticals can't absorb that kind of cost increase, and now they cannot sue the government, so what do they do? The only logical alternative is to pass off the costs to private insurers, which covers folks like you and I. And that means companies are either suddenly no longer able to offer the same health care coverage to us that they did. It's possible that our coverage gets yanked and our employers opt into the new government system to save money - either that, or they start cutting staff to make up the costs.

The same thing with the doctors - doctors are now going to be seeing an excess of patients. Doctors are being told how much the government will be paying them to see those patients. Doctors still have to pay staff, administrative costs, fees, etc. And now to accomodate the influx of extra people they cannot pass off the cost to the government - so who do they start overcharging? Private insurance patients! And the same thing happens!

The way I see it - either one of two things will happen: either doctors will give preferred treatment and time slots to private insurance holders and tell government insurance holders that the wait time is months long - because doctors know they will get their money from private insurance; or private insurance will raise their rates to the point where they cannot compete any longer.

Also, that doesn't even take into account our taxes going up to pay for this. But how you can even think this bill WILL NOT change our current insurance policies is beyond me. And yes, I know Obama said it wasn't "logical" to believe that this plan would put private insurance out of business, but also remember one very important thing - he also said he didn't know what was in this bill, either!

Meanwhile Codex is ready to limit your nutrition needs so that you will get sick and die sooner.
Vitamins will be concidered medicine, and previously banned insecticeds will again be allowed.
You don't stand a chance.

At least not thru civilized legal channels.

Originally posted by Donkey_Dean
Also go to a Cuban Pharmacy and compare drug prices with the US. You'll be outraged that we are being so taken advantage of. There is no other place on Earth were doctors are paid so much.
[edit on 22-7-2009 by Donkey_Dean]

And the average income in Cuba is what? And what are your chances for prosperity in Cuba?

Would you say there is more or less opportunity in the U.S. to make money than in Cuba (legally)?

Does Cuba possess the medical technology and knowledge in just about every small to midsize town's hospital the way the U.S. does? And is that kind of technology and knowledge cheap?

Thank you. That's why our costs are higher.

[edit on 22-7-2009 by sos37]

WOW dumbing down is happening in America, the first bill written in txt.

Pg 58HC Bill - Govt will have real-time access 2 individs finances & a National ID Healthcard will b issued!

Not many people have mentioned the national ID card. If anyone including illegals are entitled, why do you need an ID card?
Or is it part of a bigger plan?

In the UK they using IT to linkup all the health service so any healthcare professional in the country can see your health records.

Q&A: NHS computer system

As for government healthcare as an idea, the NHS in the UK costs in 2004 were £85 billion. I couldn't find any recent figures. This is for about 60 million people.