The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.

reply to post by On the level


So the teenager boys, young gentlemen are not to blame either? Is that what your stating? Takes both sides to make a baby, maybe if teenage boys were taught tokeep thier pants zipped, or to use condoms then there woudn't be an uprise in Pregnancy now would there.

I also find it rude some of the statements on here, brandishing all Coupled parents, single parents, those who are brought by their grandparents with the same brush. There is a percentage of families who's children do well insociety, who do not go out looking for trouble. Who abide by the law. Who do not stand outof the streets drinking until they cannot even walk.

Please do not brandish all families in the UK withthe same brush

thanks

Laurauk.

[edit on 5-7-2009 by Laurauk]

I think this thread proves that nothing in life is so black and white. There is a lot of grey, everything is complicated, and we are ALL "individuals"!

Statistics is our way of trying to oversimplify a complicated topic, trying to make it black and white, when it's grey.

It just shows it's silly to point fingers and judge a country as a whole, when each country has such deepness, variety and individuals.




[edit on 5-7-2009 by _Phoenix_]

reply to post by SLAYER69



You can defend against hammers or knife attacks,or even run away

You cant outrun a bullet!

All it takes is a pussy with a gun from a distance you cant close quickly and your dead.

I am glad we cant get them easily over here,if we did there would be plenty big shootings from work places to schools

I always hear American's saying that if some criminal tries to break into their house they'd be able to defend themselves better with a gun than without. This justifies owning guns apparently. My question is: how often does the average American have to use their gun in self defence? Once a lifetime? Never? Do American's really think that the only thing stopping them from being raped and robbed in their own home is the gun hidden under their pillow? That mindset seems paranoid and delusional to me. Fact is, most places in the States are peaceful and the chances of being burgled or suffering from violent crime are exremely low, with or without a gun. And even if an intruder was to break in, surely you'd be more likely to be shot by the criminal than the other way round? Seems to me that this "guns allow you to defend yourself" thing is a myth. Anyone got any statistics of how many American's have ever used their gun to successfully "defend" themselves? I'd imagine it would be very low.

The "guns allow us to defend ourselves from our government" thing is a complete joke too. You think the United States government with all the destructive, modern weaponary at it's disposal would have any trouble winning a war against a couple of million hicks with handguns? Give me a break.

Fact is, unless you are one of the 2% of American's who live "in da hood", there is no point in you owning a gun. You do not need it and guns do more harm than good.

The idea that us Brits are going around knocking seven shades of sh*te out of each other is ridiculous and anyone who believes this is seriously deranged. The fact is with the stupid laws which mean that we can't defend ourselves or our homes from thieves and muggers, and with our police now intent on arresting the victims of crime rather than those who caused it, most of the figures are most probably made by thugs, robbers and burglars who have been given a good hiding by their victims and have gone to the police to complain and press charges. It's happened to me!

If we had proper police and decent laws and rules which worked the violence figures would be much less because most of these idiots would be sitting in a prison cell instead of wandering around our communities.

I'm inevitably gonna kick myself for saying this, because I'd like this thread to move away from gun control/ownership, as it's not strictly relevant to the OP...

BUT, does anyone see a correlation between guns and nuclear weapons here? North Korea want them, because the UK, US, China, Russia etc, etc have them ~ I don't think there's any North Koreans here to add input(?), but it's their country (and as a generalisation) as it might be your house to defend... what we have is a fear climate where people feel they might potentially be endangered by weapons that another has and might not use responsibly. Here in the UK, we don't really have guns freely available, they are in the hands of people that shouldn't have them, but if they were more readily available the UK would definitely be a more dangerous place, because one way or another criminals would be able to obtain them more easily.
Now I'm not disputing the right to bear arms, to be honest the only reason I would want a firearm is because I distrust my government, not because I don't feel safe at home etc, or even on the streets, which can be dangerous where I live - still, gun ownership would make me feel less safe, responsible ownership is fine, yet it doesn't seem to follow that a society with guns is safer and once you open Pandoras' box, it's tough to shut. The US banning guns would still leave them in the hands of criminals.

Anyhoo - got that off my chest, back to the issue of the violent UK ~ which areas do have problems with and I'll give some purely anecdotal "evidence"...
My hometown (no longer there) Reading, about 60 miles from London for the Americans here, every weekend would turn into a warzone come about midnight when the pubs start kicking out, belligerent drunks everywhere, people looking for fights because they're too drunk and stupid to do anything else. A queue for taxis would always see numerous fights, people throwing bottles (seemingly for fun), police everywhere. I've had the misfortune to have to go to casualty on a Saturday night (Emergency room) and it's full of drunks covered in blood and people still fighting in there too. It got to the point where as a man in my 20s I fell and cut my hand open (drinking accident, lol) and I didn't go to the hospital until the day after because it would be too much trouble to go on a Saturday night. One of my friends was beaten to death outside a pub just because he was in the wrong place.

Aside from the alcohol culture and it's related problems, there's also a large problem with drugs, mostly crack - so if you're heading out of town late at night any day/night of the week if you're going the wrong way or live in the wrong part of town (as I did) you'd stand a pretty good chance of being mugged, which could be anything from someone telling you to give them your wallet, to be taken to a cash machine at knife point, or just getting hit from behind and beaten, then get your stuff stolen.

The issue with both of these scenarios which are fairly common in some parts of the UK are social, no one cares, is raised with respect for themselves or others. We're taught to desire, that our possessions make us better people, our clothes, our cars, if we can go out on a weekend get a partner, get more drunk ad nauseum. This isn't just down to working class people either, I've seen all sorts of people behaving like animals.

I was raised by a single mother, she worked from home, doing sewing, making curtains etc. I was lucky, because she chose to be there to raise me ...and I've just realised what a messed up statement saying I'm lucky because my mother wanted to raise me is.

Society doesn't care for its own anymore, there's our problem.

I blame Thatcher.

Originally posted by pavil
reply to post by CRB86

 

I must have met some good Brit and Irish groups on the way to the World Cup when I was traveling in Europe, we had a blast on the train getting drunk!! Everybody was very cool! Though I did see some idiot German guys later in my trip.

Lighthearted, minor, pedantic point, you would have met English fans, not British fans. There is no British national team, and Wales and Scotland never qualify for the World Cup!

wow, if anyone belives this you are very very wrong. Are you telling me to belive that BRITAN is worse of than the ghettos of America and South Africa?? Thats the most absurd thing I have heard in a very long time.

I live in London and i gotta say that in all my years i've only ever seen one person get into a fight after a night out.... sounds strange but it's true.... and i used to go out a lot and i mean a lot...... of course people drank, got drunk and did drugs but i never saw any violence!!

Sometimes i think i live in a different world to what others are living in or like i said on my thread 'living in a world of non-existance' maybe i don't exist!!

I tell you what i do agree with though and that's what someone said earlier.... there's not much space between people, everyone lives on eachothers toes!!!

reply to post by TruthxIsxInxThexMist


Yeah, that's true... It's hard to relax sometimes when you're so densely packed in.

reply to post by CRB86


Maybe so, But at least Scots fans are one of the best behaved in the world compared to english, fans who have a very bad reputation off violence. Shall we start a pissing contest?

If you want to go there.

[edit on 5-7-2009 by Laurauk]

Every single person should have the right to bear arms - that justice is enacted by force should not even be up for debate, as it is self evident truth.

Without the means to exert meaningful force - then justice cannot exist.

reply to post by noangels


And just how many knife attacks/hammer attacks have you defended yourself against?

Most folks know that if two parties have a knife, likely, they'll kill each other.

So what is your defense secret that enables you to defend against a knife attack?

You are correct in one aspect, a pussy can pick up a gun. But that same pussy must be able to hit what he's shooting at.

I learned a long time ago that one of the most uncomfortable conditions is to suddenly find yourself in a hatchet fight, and you're the only one without a hatchet.

So I legally conceal a 1911 .45 Kimber Ultra CDPII with Crimson Trace laser grips, and it cost more than many people earn in two or three weeks. Not a throwaway, and not a cheap Saturday nite Special.

You run if you want.

I don't have the patience anymore.

reply to post by dooper


I got attacked with a knife once, it wasn't fun.

Fortunately I was able to defend myself with only minor injuries (to me). The guy was trying to mug me and my girlfriend (at the time), I'm pretty sure he was on drugs, I'm glad he didn't have a gun.

This was an isolated incident and possibly not a good example, just sayin'.

Originally posted by noangels
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

You can defend against hammers or knife attacks,or even run away

You cant outrun a bullet!

All it takes is a pussy with a gun from a distance you cant close quickly and your dead.

I am glad we cant get them easily over here,if we did there would be plenty big shootings from work places to schools

Nice.

You have a particularly endearing term for gun owners.

You believe that your countrymen would find gun ownership irresistible.

Good to know where you stand in regard of your own countrymen.

Bet you get a lot of dates like that.

Lets get off the self defence issue guys. It seems egos are flying here and it has nothing to do with the topic. If you really knew about self defence then even if your a hero you dont go talking about it on the internet or anywhere. You just want to forget it.

Back on the issue, the idea that England is worse than South Africa is absurd in real terms. But not without a hint of truth. I live in what was once the jewel in the crown of Englands glorious fishing industry. It was tough being a docking town, still is tough. After a sprinkling of Mr Hitlers bombs in WW2 it was trashed and never recovered. No more jos, not allowed to fish the seas anymore. Massive deprivation. This builds serious violence.

For example my mum who is around 40 could talk for hours, hundreds of stories that would make your stomach turn, tales of violence and hardship that will have you broken down in tears, I am serious about this. Any of you who are giving the tough guy talk now just quit it. Because it doesant fly, you have no idea about real violence and hardship just like I dont. You and I worry about getting into a fight once or twice in your life, people used to and still do live the life of violence and hardship every day.

So what Iam saying is that its all bull, it is still violent now but its better than it ever has been. The chavs and neds people are talking about originated in my city ( no South Shiels as most profess). They mean nothing, they are a joke in my city. The level of violence and hardiness they have makes us laugh, its nothing.

Put simply you have tough areas and nice areas, same the world over, its not worth talking about it on the scale of countries when it comes to nespaper headlines.

What is now important and to me disturbing is the nature of the violence in the counrty now. Senseless and extrememly cold with more than a hint of shock and outrage. Real horror story #.

I know people from Gambia and all over Africa and yeah, they seen nasty stuff, proper brutality, but they are still shocked when then come to England. Violence in England seems random and very cruel and comes out of the blue and its not what they are used to.

Originally posted by Laurauk
reply to post by CRB86

 

Maybe so, But at least Scots fans are one of the best behaved in the world compared to english, fans who have a very bad reputation off violence. Shall we start a pissing contest?

If you want to go there.

[edit on 5-7-2009 by Laurauk]

If you look at the post i made before, you'll see that i actually stated that English fans are worse than others. Pretty tightly wound aren't you? Jesus. Maybe you should lay off the Irn Bru and stop looking to argue with strangers on the internet. I like the Scotch though. Didnae get me wrong. I like lulu and if taggarts on i'll tape it.

Rangers in Manchester last year was a fantastic demonstration of the tranquil temperament of the scottish football fan though, wasn't it!

Originally posted by Lurch
I always hear American's saying that if some criminal tries to break into their house they'd be able to defend themselves better with a gun than without. This justifies owning guns apparently. My question is: how often does the average American have to use their gun in self defence? Once a lifetime? Never?

I've had to use mine 6 times in such manner in the States, over the course of a lifetime. Only once was on duty. No, I didn't have to push it all the way and drop the hammer on the miscreants. I've never shot anyone here, but 6 times I have had to make it clear that the next major event in their lives would involve a really loud noise should they persist in their ways.

It worked. Every time. And no one got hurt. Had it become necessary, however, rest assured that any pain felt would have been on their part, not mine.

Do American's really think that the only thing stopping them from being raped and robbed in their own home is the gun hidden under their pillow? That mindset seems paranoid and delusional to me.

Could be that there's some small difference between the cultures of Britain and America that you fail to recognize then. It's neither paranoid nor delusional if there really ARE dangerous predators about. I'm happy for you that you've got your own country under control in th Iron Grip, though. Bully for you.

Fact is, most places in the States are peaceful and the chances of being burgled or suffering from violent crime are exremely low, with or without a gun.

Yessir, you are correct there. Absolutely. Don't confuse that with a complete lack of danger such as you apparently believe you enjoy there, though.

And even if an intruder was to break in, surely you'd be more likely to be shot by the criminal than the other way round?

Nope. I guess you'd have to see my qualification scores, and realize that criminals generally don't feel a need to qualify, in order to appreciate the veracity of that.

Seems to me that this "guns allow you to defend yourself" thing is a myth. Anyone got any statistics of how many American's have ever used their gun to successfully "defend" themselves? I'd imagine it would be very low.

In excess of two millions of times yearly. There are many more statistics out there, Google can be your friend.

The "guns allow us to defend ourselves from our government" thing is a complete joke too. You think the United States government with all the destructive, modern weaponary at it's disposal would have any trouble winning a war against a couple of million hicks with handguns? Give me a break.

That's a common misconception, even here. You are placing far too much emphasis on inanimate objects, at the expense of emphasizing the people operating them.

You are cordially given your "break", but you should know that our own government doesn't share your view. Some elements of it are in a terrible hurry to get things accomplished against the will of our people, because they are aware that their time is getting short.

Fact is, unless you are one of the 2% of American's who live "in da hood", there is no point in you owning a gun. You do not need it and guns do more harm than good.

There IS a point, and it is this: it's not a matter of "needs" here, it's a matter of "rights". I truly am sorry that you are incapable of grasping that concept.

[edit on 2009/7/5 by nenothtu]

I was thinking earlier about 5 dimensions..... or in other words The Matrix! Somehow these people need to find a way out of that lower echelon which is quite possibly hell with all the drugs and #.....

reply to post by jokei


Thanks for recognizing my right to bear arms. 'nuff said about it.

The root causes of the violence you mentioned there are endemic here as well, and getting worse by the minute. In our case, we can't lay the blame on anything or anyone that you would consider "Thatcherite". Our problems in that area came from the other end of the political spectrum, but mostly not from politicians.

They stem from the efforts of "social engineers" who started instilling the notion that one doesn't have to work for anything, the government OWES it to you. They proceeded to tread the downtrodden even further down, causing them to become dependent on the public dole. That led, in my opinion, to far too much free time on the hands of those individuals, time they used to investigate mischief, rather than trying to become self-sufficient. In turn, that led to an alarming rate of promiscuity, and a sharp rise in "single parent" households. Unlike your own mother, a sizeable portion of the single mothers here went on the dole, and started churning out babies to increase their personal profit margins. The men in those areas were no better, and started viewing procreation as a "hi-n-git" proposition, with no repercussions or responsibilities.

The net result was a huge population of disaffected youth, without role models, living at poverty, with too much time on their hands, which they made no constructive use of. Their discontent, and hunger for the "things" they saw other people with, coupled with the notion that they didn't need to work for those things (since the government "owed" them) led to a precipitous rise in criminal activity when the government failed to rise to the expectations fostered by the social engineers.

And now we have what we ourselves allowed to happen. Thankfully, it's still mostly confined to the "inner city" areas, and only ocaisionally splashes out of there. With the economy being the shambles it is now, those ocaisions are unfortunately on the rise.

I blame it on social engineering, abuse of the public dole by people who didn't really "need" help, and the greed endemic in modern human nature.