France considering ban on burqas, spokesman says

reply to post by Manouche


Excellent post. Your thoughts bring another layer to these ideas. Another poster, pages back, remarked that women would generally not report abuse, either, and circumstances such as these might place them at risk in their own homes, and with their own famililes. This would not lead to the desired outcome France wants, and it fact contradicts it.

IMO, France has done a good thing, by making the option available to these women, and has promised support to those who do report. It is an offer to assist them in freeing themselves, if they so choose, which I see as a good thing.

However, the individual woman would singularly need to evaluate her own circumstances, safety factors, and risk issues. It would indeed, should this be her choice, require a certain amount of bravery, and her willingness to follow through with procedings, once initiated with LE.

The Muslim religion, and the culture which surrounds it, seems very complicated. (to me) But many family situations are very complicated also, outside the religious aspect.

We hear of American women who remain in domestic violence situations for years, simply because they are afraid to leave, Have no place else to go, and myriads of other reasons.

And these are women who can pick up the phone, call 911, and when the police get there, they KNOW somebody's going to jail.

But often, they don't. People get out of jail. Women leave the DV shelters.......And then...the danger increases. It absolutely does.

So I guess what I'm trying to say (and not very well, I think) is that I support the fact that they are given an option. I mean "the land of the free and the home of the brave" and all that happy stuff, and when in France do as the French do, and be free.

Or at least, know that YOU CAN. That YOU COULD BE. Even just knowing you have an option is "freeing" somehow.

What could be wrong with that?

reply to post by tezzajw


Lol, you are really sticking to your guns on this.. I respect that.

I don't agree with or really understand your perspective completely but I respect your stubbornness.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


I suggest passing a law making muslim women wear miniskirts and lacy crop tops.

this will free them from their nasty men oppressors.

also throw in premaritel sex.

Its coming, there is an active backlash against radical Islam. This is why Europe is becoming more conservative. This is just the beginning. The world has decided to go after radical Islam.

Hmmm. I've been thinking about something, and I hope it's totally erroneous. I truly do.

But....

Do you think it's possible that this "banning' of burka's, has more to do with security, than the freeing of it's wearers?

In other words, could there be more to this, than simply a selfless act, based on kindness and concern for a precieved and oppressed population?

Is there a hidden agenda?

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


Let's drop political correctness. Of course, there is the aftertought of countering radical Islam.

There is a large group of muslims in France since the 60's. They came mostly from former French colonies Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia. They already spoke French and settled easily. They already knew French culture. The grandchildren of these migrants are young adults now, they have French citizenship, are quite westernized in all aspects and not particularly religious.

One important thing I won't elaborate now is that France used to promote assimilation not integration. It's a very different concept. People used to be mixed, no communities, no ghettos, everyone has to share the same way of life, culture and freedom principles. Newcomers are rewarded by total acceptance without discrimination (theorically and idealistically of course). Anglosaxon influence with the promotion of the acceptance of multiculture has changed that. France now speaks of integration but two centuries of assimilation cannot be written off like this.
Radical Islam is a fairly new problem. It has come with the last waves of migrants. French muslims are mostly very moderate (old settlement) and they view radicals (recent settlement) as a source of tensions and problems that affects them and how they are perceived themselves. The burqa is a very radical and marginal trend in Islam. French muslims do feel threatened by this surge of radicalism too.
Different segments of the population share the same point of view that this radicalism must be stopped now before it creates strong tensions. There is only maybe a few thousand women wearing burqas. Of course, there is more to this issue that defending a small number of women from men's control and forced submission.

reply to post by Manouche


Good Points. I was curious about other people's thoughts about this, and would like to hear from other posters as well.

Oh, since you have dropped the political correctness, would you mind dropping the condescension also - thanks.

Originally posted by Dermo
Lol, you are really sticking to your guns on this.. I respect that.
I don't agree with or really understand your perspective completely but I respect your stubbornness.

No worries, mate. It's all healthy discussion.

Besides, I can only repeat myself so many times before I get bored of the thread. I'm about done with it. I've made my point - over and over and over.

I'm not an advocate of giving more powers to the state or the government. I am against all forms of control.

I'm an advocate of giving more powers and rights back to the individual, even if the individuals cause themselves more harm than good from exercising their right to make a choice. You can't legislate to save people from their own stupidity.

If the French want to ban burqas, then that's their own business. It is their country, their laws, their policy, their right to do so. Let them. If the Burqa conflicts with their cultural, social, and personal values as a nation, then it is their right to remove it from the public.

reply to post by tezzajw

So she's a battered wife, similar to other battered wives? Well, I'm sure that the French authorities have shelters that can support abused women. She can take out a protection order against her abusive husband. As an adult female, she has lots of choices about how she can deal with her abusive husband.

You seem to be full of ideas on what choices people have regarding every situation, getting away from an abusive relationship is not as easy as you seem to think it is.

According to gender issues minister Catherine Vautrin, a physically-abused woman dies every three days in France

www.angus-reid.com...

Amnesty International has revealed that in France a women is killed by domestic violence at least every 4 days, and that 1 out of 10 women in France is a victim of domestic violence at some point in their lives. These figures are shocking and the French government has been urged to tackle the situation. Bear in mind that figures are based on statistics gathered from reported crime, which makes it all the more horrifying when you start to think how many of these crimes go unreported or worse still how many women are out there living in fear?

The legal system is incredibly slow and extremely complicated and expensive, while legal aid is available in the case of an "un-amicable" divorce it often takes more than a month before the aid is granted and without the aid the solicitor cannot start proceedings or arrange an injunction against the violent partner.

This often forces women to stay with violent partners in the family home. The legal system at times also seems to support the instigator of the crime rather than the victim - this needs to be redressed!

most banks in France on opening a joint account still only issue a credit/debit card in the mans name, the women often has to apply & pay for her card separately. Although equal rights laws exist in France it is still common place that women earn on average one fifth less than their male counterparts!

www.lost-in-france.com...

www.sosfemmes.com... They won't let me copy any content from this article, so you'll just have to read it yourself.

This one won't let be copy content either. It has information pertitent to immigrant women victims of domestic violence in france.....

www.sosfemmes.com...

France has laws against wives being beaten or abused by their husbands. These women can take advantage of those laws.

I'm sure that they also have laws against setting women on fire also, but that doesn't seem to deter the Muslim men from doing it.

Chahrazad Belayni, a 21-year-old Moroccan-born woman, suffered third-degree burns to 60% of her body.

Prosecutor Camille Palluel said Butt had meticulously planned his attack "to end the life" of his former girlfriend in an attempt "to restore his honour".

news.bbc.co.uk...

Sohane Benziane, 17, was killed in October 2002 on a rundown housing estate in Vitry-sur-Seine, near Paris.

Derrar was convicted of pouring petrol over Sohane in the basement depot, then approaching her with a cigarette lighter and setting her on fire.

news.bbc.co.uk...

You must be right they have a choice to defy these men as long as they don't mind be burned alive.

reply to post by tezzajw

If she doesn't want to wear her burqa, then she's got the right to decide that, under French law.

French law doesn't mean didly squat in the Muslim culture. You're right they have the right to dress how they want if they don't mind being gang raped for it.

They rule gangland style, combined with the male-dominated traditions of the Arab countries they came from. It's gotten so bad that, today, most of the young women only feel safe if they are covered up, or if they stay at home. Girls who want to look just like other French girls are considered provocative, asking for trouble.

"I was gang raped by three people I knew, and I couldn't say anything, because in my culture, your family is dishonored if you lose your virginity,” says Bellil. “So I kept quiet, and the rapes continued. The next time, I was pulled off a commuter train and no one lifted a finger to help me. …Everybody turned their head away. They were all looking out the window.”

When Bellil's family discovered that she had been raped, they weren't sympathetic. They threw her out onto the streets.

Different case....

When the verdicts came down in this case, the courthouse turned into a madhouse. Eighteen teenagers were convicted of raping a 15-year-old girl over a two-month period. But what really shocked France was how the mothers of those boys reacted.

“You call this justice, seven years in prison for some oral sex,” says one mother. “It's the girl who should be behind bars.”

www.cbsnews.com...

How can these girls ever truely freely dress how they want, when they are gang raped for it and older say that the victims should be the ones behind bars ? !

Young women in the suburbs were being told what not to wear (jeans, anything feminine) and what not to do (have a boyfriend, wear makeup, go out, have sex). Transgression brought severe penalties.

By now, young suburban men said - and believed - "that all women are whores except my mother".

www.guardian.co.uk...

This is not only happening in France...

Islamic men are raping Western women for ethnic reasons. We know this because the rapists have openly declared their sectarian motivations.

When a number of teenage Australian girls were subjected to hours of sexual degradation during a spate of gang rapes in Sydney that occurred between 1998 and 2002, the perpetrators of these assaults framed their rationale in ethnic terms. The young victims were informed that they were “sluts” and “Aussie pigs” while they were being hunted down and abused.

In Australia's New South Wales Supreme Court in December 2005, a visiting Pakistani rapist testified that his victims had no right to say no, because they were not wearing a headscarf.

And earlier this year Australians were outraged when Lebanese Sheik Faiz Mohammed gave a lecture in Sydney where he informed his audience that rape victims had no one to blame but themselves. Women, he said, who wore skimpy clothing, invited men to rape them.

A few months earlier, in Copenhagen, Islamic mufti and scholar, Shahid Mehdi created uproar when – like his peer in Australia – he stated that women who did not wear a headscarf were asking to be raped.

And with haunting synchronicity in 2004, the London Telegraph reported that visiting Egyptian scholar Sheik Yusaf al-Qaradawi claimed female rape victims should be punished if they were dressed immodestly when they were raped.

In France, in the banlieues, where gang rape is now known simply as tournantes or ‘pass-around,’ victims know the police will not protect them. If they complain, Samir Bellil said, they know that they and their families will be threatened

This phenomenon of Islamic sexual violence against women should be treated as the urgent, violent, repressive epidemic it is. Instead, journalists, academics, and politicians ignore it, rationalize it, or ostracize those who dare discuss it.

www.jihadwatch.org...

How can you expect women to refuse to wear burqas if their culture teaches that it is acceptable and condoned to rape a woman that is not completely covered from head to toe.

Originally posted by chise61
French law doesn't mean didly squat in the Muslim culture.

muslim culture doesn't mean didly squat on French soil. Women living in France are protected by French laws.

You're right they have the right to dress how they want if they don't mind being gang raped for it.

“You call this justice, seven years in prison for some oral sex,” says one mother. “It's the girl who should be behind bars.”

I don't understand your problem?
Was this girl gang-raped because she didn't wear a burqa?

I don't see what your problem is. She was raped and the crime was reported to the police. The offenders were sentenced to prison - seven years. It's like I stated, muslim women, like all women, have all of the power in the world to report a crime against them to the authorities.

You're backing up my point here. The offenders were put in jail. You must have missed the part in your article where they stated that the root of the violence was the ghetto culture amongst the poor teenagers.

That just infuriated Samira Bellil enough to help lead a national movement against this violence. “Before, they would rape us. Now, they're burning us alive. Sohane can't speak anymore, so I'm gonna do the talking,” says Bellil.

“Ni putes ni soumises,” is a provocative slogan that, roughly translated, means “We're neither whores nor doormats.” It's a movement that sprang out of the ghettos, made up of mostly immigrant women who are now fighting back against the gang rapes and violence that plague their neighborhoods.

Bellil is in the forefront of that fight, leading demonstrations and lobbying to set up shelters to help protect these women.

Look, that is from your same article. I stated earlier in this thread that France should offer support groups to abused women. See, some of these women are making a positive step forwards.

How can these girls ever truely freely dress how they want, when they are gang raped for it and older say that the victims should be the ones behind bars ? !

Again, you missed the part where the rapists were put in jail. If all the muslim men want to rape the women, in FRANCE, for not wearing their burqas, then they'll be put in jail for doing so.

[This is not only happening in France...

I don't care. This thread is about FRANCE.

How can you expect women to refuse to wear burqas if their culture teaches that it is acceptable and condoned to rape a woman that is not completely covered from head to toe.

As stated through the entire thread and as supported by your article - thanks for finding it - the rapists were jailed.

The French authorities need to be vigilant and swift to act when any woman, not just a muslim women, is a victim of violence. Muslim men will either learn that it's not appropriate, in FRANCE, to abuse women, or they'll go to jail for doing so.

[edit on 23-6-2009 by tezzajw]

I believe that when being able to appear in nude totally naked is ok, then burqas are ok too.

If you think it offensive to be totally nude in public, so you can outlaw it, then I think you should be able to outlaw equally offensive burkas.

Makes sense to me. IF the muslims want burkas, then they should allow naturalists to strut their birthday suits.

Originally posted by hadriana
If you think it offensive to be totally nude in public, so you can outlaw it, then I think you should be able to outlaw equally offensive burkas.

Public nudity has never bothered me. That's why I go to the beach in summer - plenty of public nudity going on there!

One final point before I start getting sick of my thread. Not directed to you, hadriana, just to the thread participants in general:

Banning access to something, anything, is going to cause friction. The instant human reaction to having something banned from them is one of defiance at their loss of rights.

Banning the burqa will make muslims more defiant, as they will claim that their religion rights are being discriminated against.

On the other hand, using more progressive methods, you can eventually educate people that they don't really need what you were trying to ban in the first place. Let them 'discover' on their own, that they don't need it. Sure, it will mean pain and suffering for some. There is no way to defeat the ingrained culture that the previous hundreds of years of islamic instruction have had on these people. Many of them are brainwashed from birth to feed on that crap. A revolution against the oppression must be paid for in blood.

However, as shown in the article a few posts ago, there are some muslim women who are taking a stand. They need to be supported and promoted. When their dominant struggle is highlighted as being a positive influence, then other women will wake up to realise that they don't need to be treated like dog crap. Continue to jail the male rapists, etc and these women might wake up and realise that there's a better world for them. Until then, they choose to wear their burqas.

It might take a couple of generations. It can't happen over night. The older, biggoted, moronic elders need to die off first - and they will. This generation and the next, can help these women throw the burden off them. When they choose not to wear their burqas, they will be a stronger people. Much stronger and more independent.

Taking their burqas away from them will be like taking a toy from a very nasty child that's only going to play up even more. France only has so many naughty corners and can't seat them all.

People have no idea when it comes to fashion, anyway. Enough of this thread... I'd rather troll the 9/11 forums. Arguing with the programmed-bots there is so much more fun, rather than reading how screwed people are when they want to strip away basic rights, every single friggin' day.

I do find it strange when i see women in burqas, I also find it strange when i see hisidic Jews, even weirder when you see them queing in the same shops together. I just see it at as another fabric of society we live in. It doesn't bother me at all it doesn't offend me. Live and let live. This may be seen as PC to many, but I prefer the days of political correctness to the days before.

reply to post by tezzajw


Because the majority will be women but if you actually think about how the hell can you tell whose underneath that giant bed sheet?

In shops in the UK (and most pubs, restaurants) you're not allowed to wear a baseball cap.. so me wearing something not religious, not linked to extremist values (and by the majority of the population yes they are) and something that barely covers my face.. is not cool.

But its fine for some random covered head to toe except their hands that could have anything concealed or be a dude ready to send himself onto Allah to be stood next to me in a store looking like a f***in ninja.

They should be banned worldwide, while we're at it we should airdrop the blokes some razor blades in, get those beards tidied up

reply to post by tezzajw


I fail to understand where you're coming from.......
The reason why it's becoming banned has nothing to do with france taking away muslim women's rights of what they wear, its about muslim women not having to be subservient, under control by muslim men.

As said by Sarkozy, "the burka is not a sign of religion; it is a sign of subservience....we cannot accept to have in our country women who are prisoners behind netting, cut off from all social life, deprived of identity"

It's condemning the head-to-toe cover for women as a symbol of subjugation rather than faith. Last year a Moroccan woman was refused French citizenship after social services said she wore a burka and was living in "submission" to her husband."

www.telegraph.co.uk...

The legal ruling..... is the first time a Muslim applicant had been rejected by France due to their religious practices.....She wears a black burqa that covers all her body except her eyes, which are visible through a narrow slit, and lives in "total submission" to her husband and male relatives, according to reports by social services.

The case will reignite debate about how to reconcile freedom of religion, which is guaranteed by the French constitution, and other fundamental rights which many in France feel are being challenged by the way of life of some Muslims.

globalvoicesonline.org...

Last week a French resident was refused citizenship on the grounds that she was “insufficiently assimilated.” The woman, referred to in the Press as “Faiza M.,” is a Moroccan citizen but has lived in France since 2000 with her husband, a French citizen, and three children, all born in France.... Thomas Kleine-Brockhoff of PostGlobal indicates that other factors, such as Faiza's refusal to show her face even to a female officer, and her statement that voting should be for men only, were involved.

Sarkozy said he was in favour of holding an inquiry sought by some French politicians into whether Muslim women who cover themselves fully in public undermine French secularism and women's rights.

news.smh.com.au...

Communist MP Andre Gerin is spearheading the drive for a parliamentary panel that would look at ways to restrict the burka, which he describes as a "prison" and "degrading" for women.

I think that banning burghas is mostly a security issue. If i walk to a bank wearing a ski mask, security will be on me like a landslide, i would wear a burgha i could stroll around freely. So if covering my identity is banned for a white male, why should it be allowed for a muslim female? (Or someone posing as one)

Yeah, I don't know about a "ban" per se, I mean, what people wear in their own homes is completely irrelevant to me, but what I dislike is when I walk past a woman wearing one and I notice they are looking at me in a strange way, very suspiciously. Especially when I do the gentlemanly thing and open the door for them, or something akin to that.

For public relation's sake, I think they should willingly abandon it - we aren't in Arabia, you don't have to worry about Western men being unable to control their urges (at least, not in the apparent numbers that Muslim men seem to have a problem with it) and generally most of us a pretty nice guys.

I find it hard to believe that God wouldn't want women, who are also his creation, to be able to walk around freely and comfortably in the open air with the sun on their skin and the breeze flowing through their hair. I do not see how religion could justify such a thing as a burqa. A woman should not have to hide her beauty from the world.

The only purpose such a thing as a burqa serves is to condition a woman into servitude. It is not natural. The need for a few women to wear such a thing, most likely due to their conditioning, is greatly out weighed by the need for the vast majority of women to be free from such a device, and any effort to force such a device upon them.