France considering ban on burqas, spokesman says

Originally posted by SG-1-9er
Actually no, I'm not wrong. YOU can choice to close your eyes to whats really going on but that don't mean I'm going to. But, your right they do have a choice, that choice is wear what your told or get the life beaten out of you. What would you choose?

They can go to the French authorities and report any harrassment or abuse. They have options and they have a choice. So, yes, you are wrong. They wear them by choice.

A.
I don't give a dam where they live, it doesn't change the facts, if they don't do what there told they'll be beaten.

They live in France. They've got choices. They don't have to wear them. France has laws against wives being beaten or abused by their husbands. These women can take advantage of those laws.

B.
Their not all adults, I'm not sure if your aware of this (since you don't seem to bright) but muslim's are born as baby's as well just like we were. They don't just fall out of the sky, full grown adults.

How many underage girls wear burqas in France? Clearly, children of a younger age do have restrictions imposed upon them by their parents. However, beyond the teenage years, the child grows up to become an adult with a world full of choices to make.

I think maybe you should read the Qur’an you clearly have no understanding of this "religion" and how it treats women or you would not say that they choose to do anything, they don't. They simply do what there told.

I don't need to read their book. They live in France. It is a nation that has separation of church and state. France is not governed by the teachings in their religious book. Therefore, these women choose to wear their burqas by choice. They're not breaking any laws by wearing them. They're not forced by any French laws to wear them.

You can make excuses for these women all that you like, but you can't save them from themselves. They choose to wear them. Good luck to them.

Imo the burqa is a condemnation of femininity, it is a cultural requirement rather than a religious one.
Is it a coincidence that in countries where the burqa is demanded, women are denied the same rights as men.

Remeber in 2002 when Saudi girls were not allowed to leave a burning school because they were uncovered which led to fifteen of them burning to death, after being forced back in by guards.

This past week another fire erupted in another girls school – this one in Khamis Mushayt.
Thankfully – luckily, no one was killed – although six girls were hospitalized and another 21 injured – when the school’s guard prevented them from leaving the burning building.

www.saudigazette.com.sa...

I have Muslim friends who dislike the burqa as much as myself, some wear headscarves others are uncovered, all say the burqa has no place in the 21st century.

reply to post by tezzajw


Even freedom has its limits. We have freedom of speech, but that doesn't allow you to yell fire in a crowded theater, or tell someone you are going to kill them if they don't comply with your demands.

You can claim all you want that Muslim women aren't being forced to wear burqa's, but the honor killings tell a different story. Banning burqas is a huge step towards freeing Muslim women from an oppressive religion. The burqa is an ugly symbol of religions oppression, and the world sees this. The benefit for the great majority of Muslim women far out weighs the the small sacrifice of freedom for a very tiny minority of women who honestly prefer to wear such a horrible device such as a burqa.

Hey, nudists would like to claim that they have the right to walk around nude, but that doesn't mean that they should be allowed to do so. How would you like it if some guy moved in next door, and hung around outside all the time in the buff, working out and staring at your wife and daughter every chance he got.

Banning the burqa frees Muslim women from being forced to wear such an oppressive piece of clothing. All nations should take up this ban.

[edit on 21-6-2009 by poet1b]

reply to post by dizzylizzy


No doubt those girls wanted to burn to death in a fire rather than go outside exposing themselves to men in a sinful fashion.

But hey, such enlightened countries like this actually allow girls to go to school. Maybe that is why god brought down his wrath.

Originally posted by poet1b
You can claim all you want that Muslim women aren't being forced to wear burqa's, but the honor killings tell a different story.

Please link me to all of the honour killings that have happened in FRANCE due to women not wearing their burqas.

You made the claim, so you supply the evidence.

No doubt those girls wanted to burn to death in a fire rather than go outside exposing themselves to men in a sinful fashion.

Did you read the OP and the entire thread? The OP is discussing FRANCE.

In which country was that fire again?

However, please show me all cases, in FRANCE, where muslim women who were not wearing burqas, were not allowed to escape the burning building.

reply to post by tezzajw


Just as soon as you provide links of what is going on behind closed doors in Muslim homes where women must wear burqas that proves these women want to were this abomination. How convenient that the burqa hides them so no one can see the bruises.

By the way, who died and put you in charge? Who says we can't talk about things in other countries, besides France, related to the topic?

Out of curiosity, does your women, or woman, wear a burqa?

Hey, you wanna link, no prob. You could have easily done the search yourself.

www.boston.com...

www.windsofchange.net...

www.gendercide.org...

www.voanews.com...

"Here in Turkey the figures for 2007 show that over 200 women were killed here in the name of family or community honor, and that is frankly unacceptable in a modern Europe," Austin said. "And it's just the tip of the iceberg: In the United Kingdom; in Germany; in Belgium; in France; in Norway, there is evidence of honor crimes and honor killings."

The report says one of the key steps in combating violence against women is legislation. Jose Mendes Bota is the chair of Portugal's parliamentary committee on violence against women.

Dear OP,

I understand your concerns on this issue and you raise very good points.
I am glad you brought up this news that creates some debate.
Maybe you rush in your assumptions of what the French legislation will be or even if there will be one. At the moment, a parliament member made a proposal to create a parliamentary commission to make a report to try to determine if wearing a burqa is a free choice or not and if necessary ban it by law.
Some parliament members want a debate on the burqa and the niqab. Since you promote freedom, be happy a debate can be held and be delighted by the intention to research the issue before making an uneducated law. Don't presume on what will be the finality. You look like you don't know French domestic situation very well.

The wearing of a burqa is very very marginal in France. There are no numbers, the general perception is that more women wears them.
The subject has led to numerous comments on the last days and people opinions are divided on this. Amongst the government, members have made statements, some pros, some cons. Muslims and muslims descents are divided too. You may be surprised many of them are strongly opposed to the burqa.
Fadela Amara, Secretary of State for Urban Policies, former president of the civil rights association "Ni p*t*s, ni soumises" ("Neither wh*r*s nor submissives" - it should set you the tone) declared "I support the banning of this coffin who kills fundamental liberties". She was raised as a muslim and she is a feminist.
Muslim Cult French Council president, Mohammad Moussaoui said "wearing the burqa is not a religious prescription, it's a rare tradition".
He also said he is shocked the parliament could work on such a trivial issue during a serious economic crisis.
Pros have different argumentatives and cons also have different argumentatives between themselves. It's not a issue you can over simplify. It's a difficult and sensitive issue. It's not only about freedom, not only about religion and Islam, it's certainly not about clothing, walking naked in the streets or wearing heavy metal shirts. This comparison is ridiculous.

You assume that women have a choice and can report to French authorities.
You are not being realistic. In real life, it cannot happen.
Woman who wear burqas are usually not born in France, don't speak french, don't have friends outside their cultural environment, don't have jobs, they work at home raising their children. They are highly dependant on their husband and their social community. It's a very hard choice to decide to go against this life. They will lose everything, ressources, friends, family, social support. Anyway, they have already made the choice or have been forced to accept it at the beginning. So no, they won't report abuse in most cases.

The core of the question is (if not diverted, it may well be because of the sensitiviness of the problem) to determine if the wear of the burqa is really a free choice or not.
In France, the idea that it could not be simply a free choice makes sense, notably because during the debate over the wear of scarves in public schools a few years ago, a consensus emerged around the understanding, based on testimonies, that young women sometimes decided to wear scarves not because of religious belief but because they were more respected by young men of their community, no more harrassed, no more called names or worst... The scarf created a barrier that protected them.

There is a subjectivity/objectivity problem. If some women who wear burqas are pressurized to it and are scared to tell so, how can one judge on their supposed real choice ? I think it's not solvable this way.
Other opponents to this law argue that if the burqa is banned, women will then stay at home and the purpose of the law will fail.

As I said, this issue divides. It's a complicated situation. I don't know if something will come from the commission. It's not a foregone conclusion. It might take years.
I hope it will be looked at depassionately.
Sarkozy will make a statement tomorrow. He has remained silent until now. He has to think hard, very hard. I mean, his advisors have to. He runs the risk to anger half of France tomorrow. He could have done without it.

edit : some typos

[edit on 21-6-2009 by Manouche]

Originally posted by poet1b
Just as soon as you provide links of what is going on behind closed doors in Muslim homes where women must wear burqas that proves these women want to were this abomination.

Thanks for your admission that you can not support your claims. Your scaremongering is noted.

By the way, who died and put you in charge? Who says we can't talk about things in other countries, besides France, related to the topic?

Sure, discuss whatever you like. But when you drift from the topic, which was wearing burqas in FRANCE, expect to be pulled up on your false claims.

Please, show me verifiable proof for how many muslim women have been 'honour killed' for not wearing their burqas in FRANCE. Show me how those kinds of murders are outliers with regards to all other murders that are comitted in FRANCE.

I'm not too concerned about women wearing burqas in other hell-hole countries. Hell-hole countries are a blight on this planet and I wouldn't expect anyone to have any freedoms in them, except for the ruling class. That's why I posted this news item, as it relates to a supposedly 'free' country - FRANCE. When supposedly 'free' countries, like FRANCE, start to introduce clothing laws, they won't be free for much longer.

For clarifications

Burqa :

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f5f90d129c18.jpg[/atsimg]

Niqab :

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e8d2cfb7d363.jpg[/atsimg]

Scarf :

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/355f9a4c806b.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by tezzajw

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

In summary, for public safety reasons, I am in support of having people show their faces in public.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I think that it's disgraceful. If someone doesn't want to show their face, then they shouldn't have to!

All that your opinion shows is that you live with a culture of fear. You're expecting that everyone will be guilty and you want to be able to trace everyone by CCTV cameras over every inch of public land.

It's not a free world any longer. With opinions like your's, it will never be a free world.

Yes we apparently have different opinions but thanks for starting this thread so we can share them with each other, and thanks to ATS for making this forum possible so we can do that. By the way, we are not the only ones debating the issue about wearing masks in public, the courts in New York are also wrestling with it (edit: or were in 2004):

www.thefreelibrary.com...

The state of New York can prevent demonstrators from wearing masks during public protests, the Second Circuit has ruled. The decision overturned a district judge's finding that the state's antimask statute was unconstitutional.

That law has been around since 1845. Given the fact that the district judge thought this was unconstitutional and the second circuit felt differently shows that there are definitely two valid sides to this argument.

By the way, the KKK was allowed to demonstrate anyway, they just had to do it without their masks.

[edit on 21-6-2009 by Arbitrageur]

reply to post by tezzajw


But I did provide links to back up my claims, now where is the evidence that anything you have said has anything to do with reality.

Clearly the burqa is a way for men to imprison their women, and lock them off from any connection to society outside of the controlled group they are imprisoned within.

reply to post by Manouche


Intelligent post, thanks for your input.

I see it as being about the ability of radicals being able to imprison women under the guise of religion.

A burqa is just a traveling prison cell. Behind a burqa you can hide shame, fear, bruises, or the young age of your new bride.

It is not about religion, it is about control over women.

Originally posted by poet1b
But I did provide links to back up my claims, now where is the evidence that anything you have said has anything to do with reality.

You've got to be kidding me?

You did not provide me with one single case where a woman in FRANCE was honour killed for not wearing her burqa!

[edit on 22-6-2009 by tezzajw]

Originally posted by tezzajw
They can go to the French authorities and report any harrassment or abuse.

Yes they can go to the French authorities and their husband would be charged, then bailed and an hour later he'll be back home belting the # out of his wife again. And to make it worse she'll be disowned by her family for going outside their legal system.

If you knew anything about islam you would know that to it's followers THE Qur’an IS THE LAW no matter what country they live in. Hell they even tried to get a court that would follow their laws here in australia. Their "religion" is pure evil (just like all religion, this one's just a little worse). Honestly are you 10 years old or just plane stupid?

Originally posted by tezzajw
They live in France.

Yeah, you said that. Stop repeting yourself, your wasting ATS's bandwidth and that stuffs expensive. Let someone with half a brain use the bandwidth instead.

Originally posted by SG-1-9er
Yes they can go to the French authorities and their husband would be charged, then bailed and an hour later he'll be back home belting the # out of his wife again. And to make it worse she'll be disowned by her family for going outside their legal system.

So she's a battered wife, similar to other battered wives? Well, I'm sure that the French authorities have shelters that can support abused women. She can take out a protection order against her abusive husband. As an adult female, she has lots of choices about how she can deal with her abusive husband.

If you knew anything about islam you would know that to it's followers THE Qur’an IS THE LAW no matter what country they live in.

France is a secular country, they don't recognise islam as being the law. If she doesn't want to wear her burqa, then she's got the right to decide that, under French law.

Honestly are you 10 years old or just plane stupid?

I'm not ten years old, so I guess that I'll have to settle for your personal insult.

Just wanted to bring up the security issue again.

One woman (or man) could hide enough C4 under his/her burka to blow the roof off most buildings. Three or 4 people fully loaded could bring down most buildings.

One person with a C4 vest imbedded with nails under the burka could wipe out a croud of 50 to 100 people. No way you could tell the person was so armed.

Facial recognition devices would be rendered useless so the burka would become the uniform of choice for terrorists.

An AK 47 (or 2 or 3) could be easily hidden under the burka.

If these are not issues to you they should be.

reply to post by tezzajw


Hey Tez!

Thought you might be interested in seeing what Sarcozy, the president of France has to say about why he is backing the ban.

"The issue of the burqa is not a religious issue, it is a question of freedom and of women's dignity," Sarkozy said.

"The burqa is not a religious sign, it is a sign of the subjugation, of the submission of women. I want to say solemnly that it will not be welcome on our territory."

Source

This is the mindset.. its not about denying people their right to freedom of expression.

reply to post by tezzajw


Too bad other countries don't have the balls to do the same

Most countries are terrified by religious fanatics, and they should be.

Originally posted by tezzajw

I have a solution for girls who don't want to be forced to cover-up in muslim nations - don't go there. Spend your tourist dollars in a more hospitable country. There's more than one way to rebel against BS laws and losing tourists wouldn't be something desirable for their economies.

And I have the same solution for muslims that want to force their dress codes, sharia law and more on other countries and then complain if that country doesn't want to go along - don't move there, or leave if you're already there.

[edit on 6/22/2009 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by Dermo

"The issue of the burqa is not a religious issue, it is a question of freedom and of women's dignity," Sarkozy said.

Thanks for that quote. It shows that even pResidents contradict themelves.

If it was about freedom, then he wouldn't try to support a ban on the burqas. Those women have the right to wear them and they can freely choose to do so, or not.

Fashion police annoy me.