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France considering ban on burqas, spokesman says

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posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 05:42 AM
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Originally posted by tezzajw
France considering ban on burqas, spokesman says


TOO LATE! The pathetic immigration laws in France have lead to a population that won't support this legislation. France now has to wallow in a stew of it's own making.




posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 05:48 AM
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Originally posted by tezzajw

Originally posted by Dermo
Our women have to cover up in there countries.. they should have to show a bit of neck and leg here

I won't type the reply I want to. I know I'll get warned for it!!!

Western countries, like France, shouldn't be trying to impinge upon the rights of people to dress how they like. It shouldn't be a tit-for-tat response that because the muslim nations make our girls cover-up, 'we' make their girls expose themselves.

I have a solution for girls who don't want to be forced to cover-up in muslim nations - don't go there. Spend your tourist dollars in a more hospitable country. There's more than one way to rebel against BS laws and losing tourists wouldn't be something desirable for their economies.


Your argument neatly contradicts itself.

If girls don't want to wear those things in another country, then don't go.

So it makes total sense if France bans them, you can simply say -

If they want to wear them, then don't go to France.



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 05:55 AM
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Besides that the Burqa is only one of the "latest" signs of intolerance and suppression of Islam towards women[it is not mentioned in the Quran]In the 40' 50' women didn't wore those things in Afghanistan.....people should be able to identify themselves and be recognizable in public places.



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 05:56 AM
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reply to post by Amagnon
 

Not at all. No contradiction.

France is supposed to be a 'free' Western country. Middle Eastern muslim countries are not viewed as being 'free'. They are oppressive and they don't play fair. Visitors to those countries know that they need to play by their rules - or else. I'll never, ever go to the Middle East, not even if I had a fully paid gold, first-class travel package. I'm not supporting their system or way of life by wanting to go there. I can Google up pictures of the Pyramids when I need to.

On the previous page, infinite unsuccessfully claimed that it was against the French Constitution to wear a burqua down the street. When pressed for proof, none was forthcoming. The best that infinite could manage, was to show how extreme religious items are banned at state schools. That's a far cry from claiming that wearing burquas in public is against the Constitution.



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 06:14 AM
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Originally posted by tezzajw
reply to post by Amagnon
 

Not at all. No contradiction.

France is supposed to be a 'free' Western country. Middle Eastern muslim countries are not viewed as being 'free'. They are oppressive and they don't play fair. Visitors to those countries know that they need to play by their rules - or else. I'll never, ever go to the Middle East, not even if I had a fully paid gold, first-class travel package. I'm not supporting their system or way of life by wanting to go there. I can Google up pictures of the Pyramids when I need to.

On the previous page, infinite unsuccessfully claimed that it was against the French Constitution to wear a burqua down the street. When pressed for proof, none was forthcoming. The best that infinite could manage, was to show how extreme religious items are banned at state schools. That's a far cry from claiming that wearing burquas in public is against the Constitution.


We have the same discussion in our parliament about the Burqa, in Belgium there are some places like Antwerpen, Maaseik,Gent,Sint-Truiden
Sint-Jans-Molenbeek, Lebbeke where its also forbidden..If we dont get these laws passed, in holland we only need a "motion[resolution" supported by QMV..New ID laws for public places will make it happen, they haven't installed all those cctv's to look at a walking campingtent.



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 06:19 AM
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reply to post by tezzajw
 


For heaven's sake, it is religious clothing. What is so difficult to understand the words separation of Church and State?



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 06:20 AM
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Originally posted by Foppezao
If we dont get these laws passed, in holland we only need a "motion[resolution" supported by QMV..New ID laws for public places will make it happen, they haven't installed all those cctv's to look at a walking campingtent.

I can't get my head around it...

Why are people so scared of women wanting to dress like Sith Lords, by covering themselves from head to toe?

Are they that scary that you need to ban their dress code with acts of parliament???

1984 becomes another step closer with Big Brother demanding that all faces need to be shown in public??? You've got to be kidding me... where does the right of an individual fit in, to live their life dressing how they like fit in to this draconian system???



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 06:23 AM
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Originally posted by infinite
For heaven's sake, it is religious clothing. What is so difficult to understand the words separation of Church and State?

infinite, I asked you to prove that it was illegal to wear a burqua in France on a public street.

You claimed that it is against the Constitution, but you have not proven it.

If it was against the Constitution, then don't you think that this thread would be moot, as the law would already be in place?

Please, if you think that it is illegal to wear a burqua in France, then prove it. Show me the exact law that person is breaking and the penalty for doing so.



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 06:29 AM
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reply to post by tezzajw
 


I quoted article 1 of the bloody French Constitution, "France being a secular republic" what more do you want? Want me to post the whole 1905 Act that separated Church and State in the French Republic?

No religious item cannot be worn in public buildings. Restricting the Burqa was first discussed in 2002 because the Islamic doctrine, for wearing it, goes against the fundamental liberty of France (under the Constitution)

It clearly states that in the article.

This is not "anti-Islamic", Christians and Jews face restriction on symbols too.



[edit on 20-6-2009 by infinite]



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 06:34 AM
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Originally posted by infinite
No religious item cannot be worn in public buildings.

Please prove this. Do you mean employees or the general public? You're really tripping over your definitions.

I understand the distinction between separation of church and state, but that does not transfer to imposing restrictions upon the rights of an individual to practise their religious beliefs.



Restricting the Burqa was first discussed in 2002 because the Islamic doctrine, for wearing it, goes against the fundamental liberty of France (under the Constitution)
It clearly states that in the article.

So, what law are they breaking by wearing a burqua at a shopping centre, post office or walking down the street?

You have not shown that it is illegal to do so. You've fallen back on the 'Constitution' without trying to show me that it is illegal.

Keep trying, you might convince me, if you manage to get it right.



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 06:44 AM
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Originally posted by tezzajw
I understand the distinction between separation of church and state, but that does not transfer to imposing restrictions upon the rights of an individual to practise their religious beliefs.


Obviously you do not understand the word "laïcité"

You are refusing to acknowledge French Constitutional Law and questioning if violating it is illegal


Turkey has the same restrictions on religious symbols.

You can only believe this is "violating rights" if you yearn to live in a theocratic society in which you are executed for questioning the faith i.e Iran and Saudi Arabia



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 06:49 AM
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Originally posted by infinite
Obviously you do not understand the word "laïcité"

Obviously you don't understand it, as you have misinterpreted it. Separation of church and state does not impinge upon an individual's right to practise what they wish in their own time.



You are refusing to acknowledge French Constitutional Law and questioning if violating it is illegal

You are refusing to show me where it is illegal to wear a burqua down the street, in France. Seriously, I've given you every opportunity to show me that it is illegal and you've failed to do so.



Turkey has the same restrictions on religious symbols.

I don't care, it's off topic. This article is about France. I wouldn't expect a country that's mostly muslim to have any sense about its laws.

Then again, I don't expect any country to have any sense about its laws. You've certainly shown that you've got no idea about what's legal, or not, in France.

[edit on 20-6-2009 by tezzajw]



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 06:50 AM
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Originally posted by tezzajw
Why are people so scared of women wanting to dress like Sith Lords, by covering themselves from head to toe?

Are they that scary that you need to ban their dress code with acts of parliament???


Different Cultures (even WESTERN cultures -- shocking but true!) have the RIGHT to maintain their OWN standards.

Many primiative tribes still run around nude or with strings for loin cloths. Does that mean France should accept that as well? Huh?

If they don't like it, they do NOT have to accept it. Maybe the West could learn a thing or two from the Middle East, preserve your culture and stop groveling to appease everyone else all the time. Sheesh.



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 06:54 AM
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Originally posted by Sonya610
Many primiative tribes still run around nude or with strings for loin cloths. Does that mean France should accept that as well? Huh?

Off topic. This is about burquas. During summer, I would guess that lots of French women do run around in skimpy loin-cloths and even nude. There's lots of them at the beach.



If they don't like it, they do NOT have to accept it. Maybe the West could learn a thing or two from the Middle East, preserve your culture and stop groveling to appease everyone else all the time. Sheesh.

Sonya, I know you've got a history of arguing in favor of clothing laws. You tried to convince me that wearing Hoodies should be banned in shopping centres. You were afraid that young punks might be unidentifiable.

So what makes you so scared about muslim women wearing burquas down the street?

I wear heavy metal tshirts, many of them offensive, down the street... are you going to deny me that right as well?

[edit on 20-6-2009 by tezzajw]



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 07:09 AM
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reply to post by tezzajw
 


I agree with you in principle in that people should be allowed to wear what they like. That said though you can see why France can get riled up and try and pass these sort of laws.

I mean here in the UK we have cases where Muslims were trying to change our laws so that they could operate under Sharia Law and case in a work place of mine where someone was not allowed to wear a Santa suit because it may offend other peoples Faith.

I think that when the above things happen it can incense people and with the French being quite passionate it may lead to a response such as this.

Do two wrong make a right? No they dont but people still do it anyway sometimes.

When all is said and done if you vist the UK or anywhere else you should respect the way they live and not try to change it.

Also I think people should remember we are all Human Beings regardless of what race or religeon we follow.

Peace



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 07:14 AM
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Originally posted by tezzajw
Sonya, I know you've got a history of arguing in favor of clothing laws.

So what makes you so scared about muslim women wearing burquas down the street?


I am scared to see western culture demolished, and this is part of it. These are NEW immigrants that wish to push the burqa fashion.

And no I am not scared of women wearing Burqas. In fact I have visited Iran and wore a hijab for 2 weeks, I did not mind it at all. While in the middle east, do as the middle easterners do! That is showing RESPECT for their culture.

I sure wouldn't plan to move to one of their countries and FORCE them to tolerate my style of dress if it went against their culture. I also do not expect them to come to western countries and do the same. A headscarf is one thing, a burqa is a whole different animal.



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 07:16 AM
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reply to post by tezzajw
 


Do you have the mentality of a child?

If you violate a national Constitution, do you think the authorities will praise you? It is i-l-l-e-g-a-l

Plus, I mentioned the 1905 Act - so the idea I haven't provide laws is pathetic. Read it, it's not difficult - I can translate if you want? I can speak mild French (again, refuting your claim I know nothing about French society. I can speak the language thank you)

I'm sorry, any one with basic intelligence can understand constitutional make up of a sovereign nation. And if you learned the ability to read, you'd see I said "all religious symbols are banned in public."

This is not aimed at the Muslim community. Nuns protested against the notion of removing crucifixes in public. The French State does not endorse any religion.



Sonya, I know you've got a history of arguing in favor of clothing laws.


There is the evidence why you will not accept my claims, you think this is Islamophobic. Oh dear, this thread has now lost my attention.

Some liberal adolescent is on a moral crusade (excuse the pun)



[edit on 20-6-2009 by infinite]



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 07:19 AM
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Originally posted by Sonya610
I am scared to see western culture demolished, and this is part of it. These are NEW immigrants that wish to push the burqa fashion.

ALL cultures change, Sonya. Nothing stays the same.

Every empire rises and falls.

If Western culture was so stable, then it would resist the burqa, wouldn't it? Give it a couple of hundred years and the burqas will be out and something else will be in. You can't live in a time-warp forever.

Here's a free tip: If you can't speak Chinese, then learn it. There's more of 'them' than 'us'. I don't mean that in a bad way, I have lots of Chinese friends.



I sure wouldn't plan to move to one of their countries and FORCE them to tolerate my style of dress if it went against their culture. I also do not expect them to come to western countries and do the same. A headscarf is one thing, a burqa is a whole different animal.

But Western cultures portray an illusion that we live with 'free' choices. Their countries don't even try to delude their populatons, or outsiders, that anyone is free to do what they like. You know when you visit there, that you comply, or you're in trouble.



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 07:19 AM
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Originally posted by Sonya610

Originally posted by tezzajw
Sonya, I know you've got a history of arguing in favor of clothing laws.

So what makes you so scared about muslim women wearing burquas down the street?


I am scared to see western culture demolished, and this is part of it. These are NEW immigrants that wish to push the burqa fashion.

And no I am not scared of women wearing Burqas. In fact I have visited Iran and wore a hijab for 2 weeks, I did not mind it at all. While in the middle east, do as the middle easterners do! That is showing RESPECT for their culture.

I sure wouldn't plan to move to one of their countries and FORCE them to tolerate my style of dress if it went against their culture. I also do not expect them to come to western countries and do the same. A headscarf is one thing, a burqa is a whole different animal.


Indeed while in Rome do as the Romans do=D

Me and my fiance visited Turkey last year and she did the same. Allthough I have to say there was a lot of people from our cruise boat that didnt which was sad to see.

I guess we all have a way to go in educating people and need Govt to stop interfering and work it out for ourselves. We dont need big brother we just need to communicate as people.



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 07:23 AM
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Originally posted by infinite
Do you have the mentality of a child?
If you violate a national Constitution, do you think the authorities will praise you? It is i-l-l-e-g-a-l

So which law is a muslim woman violating by wearing her burqa down the street? Did you read the OP? If the French politicians are only considering introducing the law, then wouldn't that imply that no law currently exists?



I'm sorry, any one with basic intelligence can understand constitutional make up of a sovereign nation. And if you learned the ability to read, you'd see I said "all religious symbols are banned in public."

Don't be sorry. You haven't supported your claim that it's illegal to wear a burqa in France. It's nothing to be sorry for. I understand if you can't do this and that it's beyond you to support your claim. You might have said that all religious symbols are banned in public, but the best that you could do was to prove that they were only banned in state schools.

Come back, after you've done some study and show me where these women are breaking French law by choosing to wear their burqas down the street - ok?



There is the evidence why you will not accept my claims, you think this is Islamophobic. Oh dear, this thread has now lost my attention.

Huh? I don't care for laws, governments or religion. I hate all three, probably equally. What I don't like seeing is for a country to ban women from wearing a type of dress, because it represents that woman's beliefs.

I wear heavy metal tshirts, I know what it's like to be stared at by people. F them. No one is going to tell me not to wear what I want to wear. Similarly, as much as I think that burqas are STUPID, I'll not interfere with the rights of the muslim women to wear them. I don't give a F what most people do and I expect that I have the same rights. Who would expect that an anti-religious, heavy metal dude would be supporting the rights of a muslim woman to wear her burqa, huh? Only on ATS...

I understand that this thread has lost your attention. You were shown up as being ignorant, by not being able to prove which laws these women are breaking.

[edit on 20-6-2009 by tezzajw]




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